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posted by janrinok on Thursday May 03 2018, @06:33PM   Printer-friendly
from the how-many-women-voted? dept.

Iowa approves one of strictest abortion bills in US

The US state of Iowa has approved one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country, banning most abortions once a foetal heartbeat is detected. Republican lawmakers, who control both chambers, passed the bill in back-to-back votes, sending it to the governor's desk to sign into law.

If [signed], the bill would ban most abortions after six weeks of pregnancy. Critics argue the bill makes having an abortion illegal before most women even realise they are pregnant.

[...] If [Governor Kim] Reynolds signs the bill into law, it will likely be challenged in court for possibly violating Roe v Wade, the US Supreme Court ruling that legalized abortion in 1973. [...] Some Republican lawmakers welcomed the challenge. "I would love for the United States Supreme Court to look at this bill and have this as a vehicle to overturn Roe v. Wade," Republican Senator Jake Chapman said.

Also at NPR, Reuters, the Waterloo-Cedar Falls Courier, and The Hill:

Nineteen states adopted a total of 63 restrictions to the procedure in 2017, which is the highest number of state laws on the issue since 2013, according to the Guttmacher Institute. State legislatures have proposed 15 bills that would ban abortions after 20 weeks and 11 bills that would ban abortions if the sole reason is a genetic anomaly like Down syndrome.

Related: Ohio Bill Would Ban Abortion when a Prenatal Test is Positive for Down Syndrome
These 9 Places in America Will Pay You to Move There


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  • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:00PM (39 children)

    by Freeman (732) on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:00PM (#675229) Journal

    Abortion is one of those topics where both sides tend to have a fairly strong opinion. Without further ado let me get the ball rolling.

    "State Fetal Homicide Laws
    Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 23 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*)."
    http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx [ncsl.org]

    "The current judicial interpretation of the U.S. Constitution regarding abortion in the United States, following the Supreme Court of the United States 1973 landmark decision in Roe v. Wade, and subsequent companion decisions, is that abortion is legal but may be restricted by the states to varying degrees. States have passed laws to restrict late term abortions, require parental notification for minors, and mandate the disclosure of abortion risk information to patients prior to the procedure.[5]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States_by_state [wikipedia.org]

    Sounds like you're having your cake and eating it too. Assuming you allow abortions, but also have laws regarding Fetal Homicide as a homicide.

    I'm definitely on the side of anti-abortion to a certain point. The exceptions are Mother's prerogative, if it would endanger her life. I.E. carrying the baby would have abnormal risk for them due to some medical reason. Also, if abortion would be a mercy to the child. I.E. some medical condition where the child won't live very long and / or they would be in pain their entire existence.

    --
    Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
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  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:07PM (28 children)

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:07PM (#675235) Journal

    You may be very interested in what the Bible has to say about abortion, and what, historically, the churches have. The word "quickening" is a good starting point...

    --
    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Freeman on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:40PM (25 children)

      by Freeman (732) on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:40PM (#675266) Journal

      Life begins at conception. The murder of an unborn child is just that.

      "Science tells us that human life begins at the time of conception. From the moment fertilization takes place, the child's genetic makeup is already complete. Its gender has already been determined, along with its height and hair, eye and skin color. The only thing the embryo needs to become a fully-functioning being is the time to grow and develop."
      https://www.gotquestions.org/life-begin-conception.html [gotquestions.org]

      "Life Begins at Fertilization
      The following references illustrate the fact that a new human embryo, the starting point for a human life, comes into existence with the formation of the one-celled zygote:"
      https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html [princeton.edu]

      Psalm 139:13-16:
      "13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
      14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
      15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
      16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

      1 Samuel 1:19-20:
      "19 And they rose up in the morning early, and worshipped before the Lord, and returned, and came to their house to Ramah: and Elkanah knew Hannah his wife; and the Lord remembered her.
      20 Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him of the Lord."

      --
      Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:46PM (20 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:46PM (#675268) Journal

        You really are a selective reader, aren't you? There is another passage stating that if a pregnant woman is injured, and loses the baby, but otherwise "no harm follows," there is a fine to be paid. A fine. NOT the death penalty. Psalm 139 speaks to God's supposed omniscience, and therefore it could just as much be relevant to *before* the embryo (or its mother, for that matter...) was conceived. No weight in this context, in other words. Ditto First Samuel, since that one's just saying Yahweh made Hannah pregnant, which is *also* presumably part of the divine plan what was laid out an eternity ago.

        I notice you don't seem to know what "the quickening" is either, nor its historical significance to the religious position on the abortion debate.

        Freeman, you are not arguing in good faith. This damages the credibility of your witness significantly.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 1, Troll) by Freeman on Thursday May 03 2018, @08:06PM (10 children)

          by Freeman (732) on Thursday May 03 2018, @08:06PM (#675277) Journal

          The notion of "the quickening" was first introduced by Aristotle. The fact that life starts when the sperm meets the egg isn't disputed in the Bible or in Science. Thus, abortion at any stage is against the Bible. It's also quite literally the murder of an unborn child. The passage you're noting isn't directly addressing abortion. It's addressing what consequences should befall someone who inadvertently or purposefully injures a pregnant woman which then leads to the loss of the baby. It doesn't address the purposeful action of murdering the unborn child.

          --
          Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Thursday May 03 2018, @08:23PM (9 children)

            by Thexalon (636) on Thursday May 03 2018, @08:23PM (#675290)

            The fact that life starts when the sperm meets the egg isn't disputed in the Bible

            There ain't no such thing as the human egg in the Bible. As in, there's no evidence that anybody at the time the Bible was written had any idea such a thing existed: The first theorizing that a mammal egg was something that ought to exist was apparently in the 1500's CE, and nobody found one until 1827 CE, and they didn't find a human egg for another century or so. Without a concept of a human egg, there can be no concept of "the sperm meets the egg", and without such a concept there can be no disputing that concept.

            The understanding of mammal and human conception in the Bible up until that point, matching the scientific understanding at the time, was that a man deposits his "seed" into a woman in much the same way that a farmer deposits his plant seeds into the ground, and that's why she gets pregnant. Which means they had managed to connect sexual intercourse with the first signs of pregnancy about 6 weeks later, but didn't really understand why a baby could end up looking like their mother.

            --
            The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
            • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:09PM (8 children)

              by Freeman (732) on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:09PM (#675311) Journal

              Yet, they had a concept of conception. The idea that life started well before the baby took it's first breath. It took Science a long time to pinpoint at what exact point Life starts.

              --
              Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
              • (Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:37PM (5 children)

                by Thexalon (636) on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:37PM (#675331)

                It took Science a long time to pinpoint at what exact point Life starts.

                You're the one that decided to cite the Bible to justify your viewpoint.

                I should also point out that abortion was a known practice during the time the Bible was written, and yet the Bible is silent on the subject. The first Christian opposition to abortion comes about a century after Paul, and decades after the Book of Revelations was written, and even then it's not really until the 1800's that opposition to abortion prior to "quickening" (i.e. first noticeable movements of the fetus in utero) became a common religious doctrine. Before the discovery of the human egg, the idea was that before "quickening", the fetus hadn't gotten a soul yet, and thus killing it would be either not a crime at all or a relatively minor property offense.

                In short: A lot of people who oppose abortion on religious grounds do so not because of what the Bible said, but because of what their religious leaders say the Bible said. Which, in my experience, are frequently at odds with each other.

                --
                The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
                • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:51PM (4 children)

                  by Freeman (732) on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:51PM (#675343) Journal

                  No, I was responding to Azuma Hazuki's comment on what the Bible says or doesn't say about abortion.

                  I have no disagreements regarding your thoughts on what and how (at least some) people have expressed their opinions on abortion in the past.

                  --
                  Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
                  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday May 04 2018, @04:09AM (3 children)

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday May 04 2018, @04:09AM (#675481) Journal

                    Jeez, you're a slippery little fuck. You're wrong, okay? You're wrong, science says you're wrong, your own Bible says you're wrong, and no matter how much you repeat otherwise and how much you hide behind a mask of feigned civility and calmness, you are not one whit less wrong for it. You're getting your ass kicked up and down the room here and you don't even have the humility to admit it. Wasn't there something about Pride being one of the worst sins...?

                    --
                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                    • (Score: 1, Troll) by Freeman on Friday May 04 2018, @02:52PM (2 children)

                      by Freeman (732) on Friday May 04 2018, @02:52PM (#675678) Journal

                      Science doesn't say anything about the ethical, moral, or legal policies involving abortion. Science on the other hand does prove that Life begins at conception. The Bible says in multiple places that X person conceived and bore a child. The Bible points to the fact that He cares about us, no matter what stage of development we are in. He cares for all creation. Why would He not care that we are killing innocent unborn children? There's definitely a number of places that the Bible warns against being proud. Proverbs has quite a few examples.

                      Matthew 6:26 "26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?"

                      You can say, I don't care what the Bible says. That's not up to me to decide as we each make our own choices. It's up to me to decide whether I can in good conscientious vote for or against a law that involves abortion. Which is the killing of an innocent unborn child. Abortion is one of the instances where "think of the children" shouldn't be a mocking meme.

                      --
                      Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
                      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday May 04 2018, @07:07PM

                        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday May 04 2018, @07:07PM (#675816) Journal

                        Your God is ALL ABOUT killing the unborn. Numbers 31 for example. And the threads early on in Hosea, where he seems to delight in telling how he'll have his soldiers rip pregnant woman apart. Then there's "blessed be he who taketh your babes and dasheth them upon the rocks" or so, though those are already-born children.

                        You're full of shit and you don't know your own Bible or religion even half as well as you think you do. And what you vomit at me is irrelevant to your case. Again: you aren't arguing in good faith, and every time you embarrass yourself like this, your witness loses more and more credibility. And Augustine (yes Augustine again) way back in the 400s made the point that Christians who look like idiots and don't know their science give the religion a bad name. I recall you saying you were "not sure if [you'd] consider Catholics Bible-believing Christians" the last time I mentioned him; you seem unaware that there was over a millennium between Augustine and Martin Luther...

                        --
                        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                      • (Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Saturday May 05 2018, @03:24AM

                        by SomeGuy (5632) on Saturday May 05 2018, @03:24AM (#675963)

                        Facepalm at all the mental retardation this story has stirred up. Seriously, take your meds.

                        Everyone is free to their opinion on the matter of abortion. There simply is no exact "right" or "wrong" answer here. Some legal lines have to be drawn so people involved know if they are violating laws or not. The legal decisions are made mostly through guesswork plus politics, and the results will never make everyone happy. Since you don't understand the science or realities behind it, you err on the absolute side of caution and that is fine. It is a mind-bogglingly complicated matter.

                        But quoting bullshit from your magic book or babbling about a magic sky being just makes you sound fucking retarded. I also dare say that it is probably quite insulting to anyone who has had to deal with the topic.

                        Science could tell us something about ethical, moral, or legal policies. But you would not like the answers. :P There are many questions science has yet to answer. There are many questions yet to be asked. Having your head firmly implanted up your ass with the belief all answers must come though an imaginary magic sky fairy or from a book of gibberish will never result in any meaningful answers.

                        Calculating solution... Optimal solution found: "Remember to have your humans spayed or neutered".

              • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @09:43AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @09:43AM (#675558)

                The idea that life started well before the baby took it's first breath.

                No. For Jews of the period, the soul is one's breath. The Christian misconception on the subject is actually a Greek & Latin translation issue combined with immaculate birth dogma being heavily affected by pagan stories about how Zeus would change forms and mate with animals to create Gods / monsters. Hebrew didn't even have a separate word for "soul". It literally used/uses "one's breath" (נשמה). It's further exemplified in how the bible idiomatically refers to living people as כל־נשמה in different places. A separate (and likely later though it's debated) Jewish folklore states that an angle descends upon a child's birth and breaths life into their lungs by kissing them similarly to how Adam was made.

                And this is actually the most compatible interpretation with modern Christian values regarding birth. The common Jewish belief, then and now, is:

                “We do not mourn for fetuses (nefalim), and anything which does not live for 30 days, we do not mourn for it.” — Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Aveilut 1:6

                “The infant, for 30 days, even including the full 30th day (if it dies), we do not mourn for it.” – Shulchan Aruch Yoreh De’ah 374:8

                Regardless, mainstream Christianity is so hopelessly removed from the Hebrew sources and biblical studies (let alone science) that it makes the backwater mainstream Rabbinical Judaism look enlightened. Moreover, people forget the information age actually reached biblical scholars and everything they were/are taught by their religious leaders is centuries behind what research now knows and accepts about the scriptures. The understanding of the language in terms of grammar and idioms alone makes 99.99% of Catholicism, Protestantism and no small amount of Rabbinical Judaism simply wrong and obsolete.

                • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Tuesday May 08 2018, @04:26PM

                  by Freeman (732) on Tuesday May 08 2018, @04:26PM (#677080) Journal

                  It wouldn't be the first time that the Jews made a mistake. Assuming the babe in the womb isn't a real person. Why would Elisabeth's baby (John the Baptist) have been noted as having leapt for joy? Please note "Messianic Judaism" is the only sect of the religion that actually believes Jesus was the Messiah.

                  Luke 1:41-44
                  "41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
                  42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
                  43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
                  44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."

                  --
                  Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @08:12PM (8 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @08:12PM (#675284)

          They never argue in good faith.

          They know. And all facts must fit what they know. Or be discarded.

          And of course since they are doing God’s work they don’t mind being unethical or even crossing legal bounds. They are righteous after all.

          Ignorance is bliss.

          • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:17PM (7 children)

            by Freeman (732) on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:17PM (#675315) Journal

            No, all facts are facts. The difference is that you don't believe there is a God or that the Bible is anything more than myths. What we're talking about isn't about whether or not Life begins when the baby is conceived. What we're talking about is the ethical, moral, and legal right to kill an unborn child. Which I define as murder as it's the killing of an innocent unborn child. Which apparently you define as ok, because it can't survive without the Mom. Not, because it's not the killing of an innocent unborn child. An innocent unborn child, kid, teenager, and adult can get along just fine without a Father. So, why make him pay child support? Because reasons? It's certainly much more onerous to spend 18+ years supporting a child he didn't want, if indeed that's what he decided.

            --
            Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
            • (Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:36PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:36PM (#675330)

              Even if we grant you the moral high ground, which I do NOT, the reality is that making abortions illegal has massive negative outcomes. You get women going to backalley docs with significantly higher risks, or doing some sort of self-harm to cause a miscarriage. Don't forget the unwanted children, growing up hated by mom (rape cases) creates some pretty serious psychopaths and negative life outcomes. Growing up in an orphanage is also pretty terrible. There was also a study that showed that 15-20 years after abortion was legalized crime rates started to drop.

              So, unless you are willing to fund all these unwanted children then STFU. Typical bullshit morality. If you're so concerned with murder then why do religious conservatives overwhelming support our wars in the middle east? Drone killings, collateral damage, etc.?

              Where does the personal responsibility lie if a woman does her best to not get pregnant with birth control but it happens anyway? What about non-christian babies who would end up in hell anyway? Have you ever given your beliefs any real critical thought?

              Oh, here is a trade off. I'll agree to ban abortions if you can build an organization that takes in EVERY unwanted baby and raises them well, along with no more persecuting gay people, and your churches are no longer tax-exempt. We'll have to confiscate the guns from any christian person since they can be used to muuuuurrderrrr. There will be a few other provisions, but those are the immediate ones I can think of.

              How many unwanted babies have you adopted again?

              • (Score: 1, Troll) by Freeman on Thursday May 03 2018, @10:24PM (1 child)

                by Freeman (732) on Thursday May 03 2018, @10:24PM (#675362) Journal

                Killing someone who intends to harm you or your loved ones is self defense. Not murder, as the moral definition of murder would be the killing of an innocent.

                War is all kinds of messed up. The USA has been involved in quite a few. Some wars that aren't / weren't "wars", too. At what point do we say enough is enough, at what point do we turn the other cheek, at what point do we find it reasonable to murder thousands of civilians, because we're fed up? We're the only country to have used atomic weapons in war. At what point does a civilian population become liable for their leaders' actions? At what point is an "innocent civilian" no longer an innocent? Sure, lets not be involved in anymore wars and become pacifists. That will fix everything. It's not like we've been attacked without provocation, before. Actually, guess what, there have been at least two distinct instances of that happening. Pearl Harbor and the Twin Towers were the catalysts for the following wars the United States got involved in. I dare say, that the civilian casualties have likely gone down with the advent of modern warfare. We'll assume you mean truly modern, like desert storm+.

                Guess what, life is full of responsibilities, some like Child Support for men who get women pregnant. I don't think it's too much to ask for a woman who accidentally gets pregnant to take responsibility for their actions.

                There are already organizations that adopt out children. Healthy babies aren't hard to find homes for. I haven't adopted any children, but I'm also not in a financial place to do so. I do have a brother that has adopted a child, though.

                How / why churches are tax-exempt isn't something I've really read up on. Though, Jesus himself said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.", so I'm not opposed to Churches abiding by the law. (There are certain exceptions, but they are generally acceptable to most. Please see the "Underground Railroad" as an example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_Railroad [wikipedia.org])

                No one should be persecuted and without a bit more information there's not much more I can say about persecution of gay people.

                Finally, on to the illegal abortions, etc. when abortion was illegal. Perhaps, the people getting the abortions should feel guilty and remorseful. Just like we expect rehabilitated inmates to be. What we need to do is provide support for women who wouldn't have any recourse. Such as Shelters for Women.

                --
                Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday May 04 2018, @04:11AM

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday May 04 2018, @04:11AM (#675485) Journal

                  > you don't believe there's a God.

                  Hold up there. I do. I'm a Deist (panentheist, but who knows what that means?). YOU are the one who doesn't, actually, believe in God. You think you do, but your Yahweh is the only being that could possibly quality for the term "Devil with a capital D" I've ever heard of.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday May 03 2018, @10:40PM

              by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday May 03 2018, @10:40PM (#675369)

              you don't believe there is a God

              I don't believe there is a god because nobody can seem to provide evidence of one.

              I mean, any god would do. Zeus, Osiris, Odin. Any god at all?

            • (Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Thursday May 03 2018, @11:50PM (2 children)

              by SomeGuy (5632) on Thursday May 03 2018, @11:50PM (#675397)

              The difference is that you don't believe there is a God or that the Bible is anything more than myths.

              There is no such thing as god, and your bible is nothing more than myths.

              I suppose someone needs to tell you about santa claus and the easter bunny.

              No, all facts are facts.

              As well as Fox News reporting...

              • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @01:43AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @01:43AM (#675425)

                I'll pray for you. :-)

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @02:22AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @02:22AM (#675440)

                  Replying to up the line. I am the AC he claimed is an atheist. However I follow Tunkashila. Jesus is as false to me as Mohammed or Yahweh. Your truth isn’t universal. Neither is mine.
                  But unlike you I believe fully in my ways. Enough so that I could care if you do.
                  This is why Jesus and Mohamed will fail. Force is used to control and control is not belief. It is fear.
                  One day I will join my Grandmothers and Grandfathers. But I could care if you do. That is your relation. Unimportant to me.

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday May 03 2018, @10:12PM (3 children)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 03 2018, @10:12PM (#675354) Journal

        The ending of a life that began at conception is no better nor worse than any other life ending. Including the mother's.

        There are circumstances where I think abortion should be allowed. But far fewer than most people would like. I certainly don't think that the convenience of the mother is a good enough reason. Yet some people who profess to be Christian get abortions when suddenly confronted with the problem and it is now a personal crisis to them.

        There is another thing that I consider. Legal or not, people always have and always will get abortions. I would rather there not be an abortion at all. But if there is one, would it be better in a medical facility or in a dark alley with a coat hanger?

        I would counsel people against getting an abortion. But I cannot make the decision for them. Even if it were not legal. I cannot force them to my will. I think the question here is should I able to force people to my wishes (even if I wanted to, which I do not). Similarly, I cannot make anyone believe and become a believer. They will or they won't. I have known people who had abortions. They may regret it. Or not.

        You can't legislate morality. You can only try to protect people from other people. But you cannot change what is inside. The darkness is still in there.

        A law against abortion, even at the national level, won't really change that much. Any more than prohibition. Any more than making marijuana illegal. Even with harsh prison sentences.

        The real battle is not in the physical realm. But it is so easy to lose sight of that.

        Just some thoughts.

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday May 04 2018, @04:16AM (2 children)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday May 04 2018, @04:16AM (#675492) Journal

          Where, pray tell, *is* the "real battle?"

          Hint: an omniscient, omnipotent, *absolutely-sovereign* God does not have enemies, fight wars in heaven or otherwise, or engage in "battles." If your God is fighting, your God is not what he says he is.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @04:32AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 04 2018, @04:32AM (#675499)

            Not only that, but even those commanded to wage his wars were stymied by enemies with iron chariots. Guess his wrath was no match for the height of military science at the time. Thank goodness that we have tanks and drones now to destroy his enemies with.

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday May 04 2018, @07:04PM

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday May 04 2018, @07:04PM (#675813) Journal

              Ah, yes, Judges 1:19 :) I always found that one hilarious. Apparently Yahweh could be stopped cold by a single M1 Abrams tank. Some God he is...

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by SomeGuy on Thursday May 03 2018, @08:54PM (1 child)

      by SomeGuy (5632) on Thursday May 03 2018, @08:54PM (#675303)

      You may be very interested in what the Bible has to say about abortion,

      Because mud dwellers with imaginary magical beings whispering in their ears ~2000 years ago had such a vast understanding of biology?

      That book of bullshit ball gargling has absolutely NO PLACE IN ANY MODERN DISCUSSION! Especially something this important.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 07 2018, @11:14AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 07 2018, @11:14AM (#676610)

        Do you have any actual arguments, you know, that are not just Cognitive Dissonance and something a 13 year old on Reddit would post?

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:12PM (9 children)

    I'm definitely on the side of anti-abortion to a certain point. The exceptions are Mother's prerogative, if it would endanger her life. I.E. carrying the baby would have abnormal risk for them due to some medical reason. Also, if abortion would be a mercy to the child. I.E. some medical condition where the child won't live very long and / or they would be in pain their entire existence.

    Good for you. Since you feel that way, don't have an abortion unless the circumstances meet your criteria.

    As for anyone else, mind your own fucking business -- it's not your concern.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:41PM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:41PM (#675267)

      I think that person chose their username ironically.

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:47PM

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday May 03 2018, @07:47PM (#675269) Journal

        Based on past conversations with him, I think that person thinks "ironic" has something to do with the metal content of the thing in question...

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 4, Informative) by NotSanguine on Thursday May 03 2018, @09:32PM (2 children)

        Please explain your thought process.

        Nothing ironic about my username here:

        sanguine
        [sang-gwin]
          adjective
        1.
        cheerfully optimistic, hopeful, or confident:
        a sanguine disposition; sanguine expectations.

        Source: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sanguine [dictionary.com]

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @10:41PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @10:41PM (#675372)

          sigh, not you

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Friday May 04 2018, @02:06AM

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday May 04 2018, @02:06AM (#675433) Journal

          Oh thank god!

          I though you were one of those "vampire enthusiasts!"

          (not that there's anything wrong with it)

    • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 04 2018, @01:33AM (3 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 04 2018, @01:33AM (#675418) Journal

      Since it's none of my concern, then you'll agree that Planned Parenthood needs to be defunded. They have no business taking taxpayer money to do things that are none of the taxpayer's concern. Or - are you going to switch over to an authoritarian position now?

      I'm not opposed to all abortions, but I am most definitely oppposed to abortions for profit, abortions for convenience, and abortion on demand. We have a fucking baby-killing industry in this country. There aren't enough words to describe it, but we can start with detestable, deplorable, and disgusting. There are plenty of stories about young women who entered a PP facility for information, only to learn that "planned parenthood" offers virtually no services for the woman who wants to become a mother.

      Just consider that the most vocal advocate of abortion makes it's living off of abortions, while at the same time begging you and I for the money to keep it's franchises open.

      Women's rights, or money grubbing sons of bitches?

      • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Friday May 04 2018, @04:09AM (2 children)

        I'm not opposed to all abortions, but I am most definitely oppposed to abortions for profit, abortions for convenience, and abortion on demand. We have a fucking baby-killing industry in this country. There aren't enough words to describe it, but we can start with detestable, deplorable, and disgusting. There are plenty of stories about young women who entered a PP facility for information, only to learn that "planned parenthood" offers virtually no services for the woman who wants to become a mother.

        Given your feelings, you should definitely never have an abortion.

        But what you think and feel about it is irrelevant to *anyone* else. What other people do with their bodies is none of your damn business.

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
        • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 04 2018, @04:27PM (1 child)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 04 2018, @04:27PM (#675718) Journal

          Given my feelings, tax money should never be used to pay for an abortion UNLESS something like the mother's life is in danger. And, given that many other Americans feel the same way, that should be the law.

          Neither you nor I have the right to tell a woman that she can not ever abort a child. But, that woman doesn't have the right to demand that we pay for her abortion, unless she is willing to justify the abortion, and our responsibility in regards to funding her abortion.

          When someone comes to you, in person, asking for money, do you, or do you not, want to know WHY that person needs money?

          "To save my life" seems reasonably legit - I may well hand money over. I'll want some details, but that seems a legit reason to hand over cash money.

          "Because I'm not mature enough to handle my own problems" seems a lot less legit. I may not be willing to hand any money over.

          Roe vs Wade didn't establish that women may demand an abortion at any time, for any reason. It ONLY established that women might have a right to abort. Roe vs Wade didn't address funding at all. It doesn't even hint at taxpayers funding abortion on demand.

          Long story short - you need to back up and reconsider the demands made upon you and I as taxpayers, in the name of some imaginary rights that you seem to have defined very poorly.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by NotSanguine on Friday May 04 2018, @07:30PM

            takyon writes:

            Iowa approves one of strictest abortion bills in US

                    The US state of Iowa has approved one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country, banning most abortions once a foetal heartbeat is detected. Republican lawmakers, who control both chambers, passed the bill in back-to-back votes, sending it to the governor's desk to sign into law.

                    If [signed], the bill would ban most abortions after six weeks of pregnancy. Critics argue the bill makes having an abortion illegal before most women even realise they are pregnant.

                    [...] If [Governor Kim] Reynolds signs the bill into law, it will likely be challenged in court for possibly violating Roe v Wade, the US Supreme Court ruling that legalized abortion in 1973. [...] Some Republican lawmakers welcomed the challenge. "I would love for the United States Supreme Court to look at this bill and have this as a vehicle to overturn Roe v. Wade," Republican Senator Jake Chapman said.

            Also at NPR, Reuters, the Waterloo-Cedar Falls Courier, and The Hill:

                    Nineteen states adopted a total of 63 restrictions to the procedure in 2017, which is the highest number of state laws on the issue since 2013, according to the Guttmacher Institute. State legislatures have proposed 15 bills that would ban abortions after 20 weeks and 11 bills that would ban abortions if the sole reason is a genetic anomaly like Down syndrome.

            Related: Ohio Bill Would Ban Abortion when a Prenatal Test is Positive for Down Syndrome
            These 9 Places in America Will Pay You to Move There

            The above is the TFS, copied here for your reference. What does your off-topic rant about tax money, especially given that the Hyde Amendment [wikipedia.org] (sadly, IMHO) prohibits the use of federal funds for abortions, and has done so for more than 20 years (since 1997) have to do with this new Iowa law?

            Regardless, your blather has zero to do with the topic at hand. You have no right to decide what other people do with their bodies. If you don't like how your state and local governments handle funding for health services, that's between you and your elected officials.

            tl;dr: Mind your own fucking business. If you don't like how your tax money is spent, I suggest you start a tax revolt. Perhaps they'll let you post to SN from prison.

            --
            No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr