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posted by janrinok on Sunday May 13 2018, @03:39AM   Printer-friendly
from the I-don't-agree-with-it,-but-I-will-defend-your-right-to-say-it dept.

[janrinok] For those of you who do not want to read about the 'extremes' of US politics (alt-right or left-wing) I suggest that you skip this story and wait for the next one. If you feel that we shouldn't publish any story that does not accord with your own, probably less extreme, views then perhaps you should remind yourself that we try to give everyone in our community the benefit of free speech and we do not intentionally censor or promote any particular view or political leaning. Of course, you are welcome to contribute your own comments in the subsequent discussion that will follow.

This MSNBC Guest Just Showed Why The Intellectual Dark Web Exists

On Tuesday, The New York Times’ Bari Weiss appeared on MSNBC’s Morning Joe to discuss her new in-depth piece on the so-called Intellectual Dark Web – an agglomeration of thinkers from all sides of the political aisle who have been cast out by political correctness and now converse with one another regularly and publicly (full disclosure: I’m a charter member, along with friends including Sam Harris, Eric Weinstein, Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, and others). The entire premise of the IDW is that many on the Left refuse to acknowledge good-natured disagreement; instead, all disagreement must be due to nefarious evil on the part of those who disagree.

Proving the point on MSNBC was guest Eddie Glaude Jr., chair at the Center for African-American Studies at Princeton. When Weiss cited the discussions between me and Sam as evidence for the diversity of the movement, Glaude responded, “What allows you to describe these folks as intellectuals of sort? Let me say it differently. They’re connected intellectually by what common commitments? So you might have different ideological spaces, but when you talk about Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro in one sentence, I can see the connection between those two.” Weiss responded, logically enough, “Which is?” And Glaude explained:

Having something to do with how they think about race, having something to do with how they think about diversity in the country and the ways in which diversity is talked about, right? The way in which they think about political correctness. Weiss responded, “Yeah, they’re anti-identity politics, for sure.”

To which Glaude launched into a full defense of identity politics: “Identity politics is a phrase that kind of is a red herring. Identity politics is just simply questions of justice, right?”

At this point, Joe Scarborough jumped in and hit the nail directly on the head:

Eddie, you have just made Bari Weiss's point, that you disagree with the way Bari Weiss views the world, so you're going to help her view the world more the way you view the world. The entire purpose of the exercise is to have honest conversations with people, and to not question their morality, or their wisdom just because they don't view the world exactly the same way that you do.

The "Intellectual Dark Web," Explained: What Jordan Peterson has in Common with the Alt-Right

Bari Weiss, an opinion writer and editor at the New York Times, created a stir this week with a long article on a group that calls itself the "Intellectual Dark Web." The coinage referred to a loose collective of intellectuals and media personalities who believe they are "locked out" of mainstream media, in Weiss's words, and who are building their own ways to communicate with readers.

The thinkers profiled included the neuroscientist and prominent atheist writer Sam Harris, the podcaster Dave Rubin, and University of Toronto psychologist and Chaos Dragon maven Jordan Peterson.

Some assertions in the piece deserved the ridicule. But Weiss accurately captured a genuine perception among the people she is writing about (and, perhaps, for). They do feel isolated and marginalized, and with some justification. However, the reasons are quite different from those suggested by Weiss. She asserts that they have been marginalized because of their willingness to take on all topics and their determination not to "[parrot] what's politically convenient."

The truth is rather that dark web intellectuals, like Donald Trump supporters and the online alt-right, have experienced a sharp decline in their relative status over time. This is leading them to frustration and resentment.

[janrinok] And another contribution from Ari reviews Amanda Marcotte's new book:

Birth of a "Troll Nation": Amanda Marcotte on How and Why Conservatives Embraced the Dark Side

Interview at Salon with author Amanda Marcotte:

I had no role in editing Amanda Marcotte's new book, which bears the amusing and highly appropriate title, "Troll Nation: How the Right Became Trump-Worshipping Monsters Set on Rat-F*cking Liberals, America, and Truth Itself." None of it previously appeared in Salon, to be clear;

But "Troll Nation" is not about the election of Donald Trump. Amanda and I have certain areas of cheerfully-expressed political disagreement, but I think we share the view that Trump was the culmination of a long process, or is the most visible symptom of a widespread infection. Amanda's analysis is, as always, calm, sharp-witted and clearly focused on available evidence. American conservatives, she says, used to make rational arguments and used to present a positive social vision. Did those arguments make sense, in the end? Did that "Morning in America" vision of the Reagan years conceal a vibrant undercurrent of bigotry?

[...] How we got from the supercilious, upper-crust conservatism of William F. Buckley Jr., the dictionary definition of an elitist -- the dude could read and write Latin, for God's sake -- to the delusional ignorance of Alex Jones and #Pizzagate, the small-minded hatred of Charlottesville and the unquenchable thirst for "liberal tears" is one of the darkest mysteries of our time. It's also the story of "Troll Nation."


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Sunday May 13 2018, @05:29AM (14 children)

    by Arik (4543) on Sunday May 13 2018, @05:29AM (#679089) Journal
    "To which Glaude launched into a full defense of identity politics: “Identity politics is a phrase that kind of is a red herring. Identity politics is just simply questions of justice, right?”"

    He didn't intend it to be but I think that statement makes about as good a litmus test for extremism in the USA in the 21st century as you'll find. Two groups of people agree with him - the regressive left and the genuine neo-nazi/fascist/ethnostate types.

    Justice requires individuals be treated as individuals, not as representatives of group identity.
    --
    If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
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  • (Score: 2) by BsAtHome on Sunday May 13 2018, @06:08AM (7 children)

    by BsAtHome (889) on Sunday May 13 2018, @06:08AM (#679105)

    It is not about justice at all. It is about /perceived/ justice.

    Since that is a totally subjective feeling and subject to extreme manipulation, we should be able to agree that nobody will be able to agree as long as interests do not align.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @06:58PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @06:58PM (#679252)

      It is not about justice at all. It is about /perceived/ justice.

      So much this. When trans women were the intersectional identity class in the vogue, it was pure terror for me. Feminists came at me, because they're being fucked by transnational capitalism, and they figured that if they fucked me over (and after being so thoroughly fucked by feminists, how could I be an incel?! lol), they would get something out of it. The alt-right came at me, because they're being fucked by transnational capitalism, and they figured that if they shoved me around, they would get something out of it. (Though the alt-right wasn't successful in fucking me as hard and as long as feminism.)

      Then the feminists patted themselves on the back, because omg Chelsea Manning! Brianna Wu! Look at all that perceived justice! Meanwhile, the cost of my meds trebled. Sex change surgery is now something I won't ever have to worry about, because transnational capitalism fucked me too (and then hour of code and the disinformation campaign in the mainstream propaganda outlets such as WaPo in particular fucked me sideways with a razor dildo), and like shit I'll ever be able to afford it.

      Where the fucking justice in that?!

      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday May 13 2018, @07:49PM (4 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday May 13 2018, @07:49PM (#679273) Journal

        Kurenai, if you want to be seen, log in. You get no karma bonus as AC.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @09:44PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @09:44PM (#679322)

          If I've posted something worth reading, I'll get modded up, and then I'll be seen. If I've posted crap, it will remain at zero. If it's scurrilous, only one person with mod points needs to be bothered to send it to -1.

          Did you have any actual response you wanted to add?

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday May 14 2018, @04:30AM (2 children)

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday May 14 2018, @04:30AM (#679415) Journal

            Yes: quit being a selfish fucking asshole. Every goddamn post you make is all about you, you, you, even when it has little to nothing to do with the actual topic at hand. You are doing yourself worse than no favors and reinforcing the stereotype of the transwoman as a hysterical, self-obsessed lunatic.

            --
            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 14 2018, @01:56PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 14 2018, @01:56PM (#679568)

              Except, of course, the posts that aren't. I can vent in that style and get your panties in a twist. You don't think I haven't gotten sick of selfish shit like that from you self-styled "superior beings?"

              Then I can watch the posts more in line with what needs to be said get modded up. Go head. Pick out a post I've made in this thread that doesn't include the requisite trigger words for your easy identification.

              Just remember. Even after you fucked over my access to local medical care, I was With Her. Then you "superior beings" went full reactionary retard. Frankly fuck you.

              • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday May 14 2018, @08:02PM

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday May 14 2018, @08:02PM (#679746) Journal

                How many times do I need to present my trans-inclusive bona-fides, damn it? Just because a few TERFy lunatics at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival did you dirty does *not* give you the license to lump 50+% of the human race (cisgender women) together in the Disney Villain Bucket. We trans-inclusive types have for several years now been internally discussing what a problem the TERFs are both in and of themselves and for feminism in general; they've sold themselves and by extension most of us out to the very people who want us all barefoot, pregnant, and stupid in the kitchen for eternity. More than once the term "house negro" and variations thereof has popped up in these discussions.

                I personally did nothing to "fuck over your access to local medical care," Kurenai, and I will thank you to stop blaming me for what others did to you.

                --
                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 2) by shortscreen on Sunday May 13 2018, @08:01PM

      by shortscreen (2252) on Sunday May 13 2018, @08:01PM (#679281) Journal

      Identity politics is about deflecting blame. The 99% are getting screwed by a system that is rigged to benefit the 1% (refine those percentages as you wish). We have to acknowledge that people are getting screwed, but instead of pointing out the injustice of the system we'll pretend that their only problem was being hispanic/muslim/trans/whatever. Then we can assign blame to everyone (but especially white males) for being too racist/sexist/bigoted. And the 1% can continue gathering wealth and power without opposition.

  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @07:07AM (5 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @07:07AM (#679113)

    Justice requires individuals be treated as individuals, not as representatives of group identity.

    I'm sorry but no. If you are part of ISIL (or a NAZI), you are just as guilty as the rest of them. Why do you think there are RICO laws in place? Why do you think many nations have laws that make it illegal to belong to illegal organizations?

    the regressive left

    Yeah... not biased at all here, are you? US has such an infinitesimal size of "regressive left" that you can't even see it. And if you view a mostly right-wing party like Democratic Party as "regressive left", then maybe you are part of the problem.

    • (Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday May 13 2018, @07:20AM

      by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Sunday May 13 2018, @07:20AM (#679118) Journal

      I'm sorry but no. If you are part of ISIL (or a NAZI), you are just as guilty as the rest of them. Why do you think there are RICO laws in place? Why do you think many nations have laws that make it illegal to belong to illegal organizations?

      Legal organization, website, group, etc. today, illegal tomorrow. Here, I'll use Russia as an example:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_undesirable_organizations_law [wikipedia.org]
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_gay_propaganda_law [wikipedia.org]

      Also, how does one become a guilty NAZI? Isn't that label applicable to hundreds or thousands of disparate groups with differing activities, beliefs, and objectives? Are they all "illegal" or committing crimes that require collective punishment?

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    • (Score: 2) by qzm on Sunday May 13 2018, @10:36AM (2 children)

      by qzm (3260) on Sunday May 13 2018, @10:36AM (#679146)

      Well, there have been no NAZIs for quite some time, I think what you think you mean in Neo-NAZI, and those are actually quite rare, and easily identified.
      They are mostly NOT the people who are being called NAZIs for not agreeing with someones personal 'justice for me, but only me' agenda.
      Interesting you bring up Illegal organisations, wouldnt ANTIFA be a pretty solid example on one right now?

      Actually I find 'regressive left', even though I have not personally see it before, an interesting and useful label.
      To myself I would see it as representing those on the left who actually believe that Marxism, Communism, etc are positive social solutions, against an amount
      of evidence now available that is simply staggering. They would be 'regressive' in that their wish is to try yet again an old and horrifically failed experiment.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday May 13 2018, @11:11AM

        They also actively work, as part of their core identity, against equality. They tell groups they are special. They tell the rest of us the special groups must get special consideration. That is precisely the definition of privilege, so they are actively engaged in seeking to create privileged classes.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 2) by VLM on Sunday May 13 2018, @11:06PM

        by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 13 2018, @11:06PM (#679353)

        I think what you think you mean in Neo-NAZI, and those are actually quite rare, and easily identified.

        Every Republican President for my entire life has been "literally Hitler" so good luck with that.

    • (Score: 2) by Arik on Tuesday May 15 2018, @01:28AM

      by Arik (4543) on Tuesday May 15 2018, @01:28AM (#679877) Journal
      "Yeah... not biased at all here, are you?"

      I call it as I see it. I see calls from the left in favor of segregation, I call that regressive.
      --
      If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?