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[janrinok] For those of you who do not want to read about the 'extremes' of US politics (alt-right or left-wing) I suggest that you skip this story and wait for the next one. If you feel that we shouldn't publish any story that does not accord with your own, probably less extreme, views then perhaps you should remind yourself that we try to give everyone in our community the benefit of free speech and we do not intentionally censor or promote any particular view or political leaning. Of course, you are welcome to contribute your own comments in the subsequent discussion that will follow.
This MSNBC Guest Just Showed Why The Intellectual Dark Web Exists
On Tuesday, The New York Times’ Bari Weiss appeared on MSNBC’s Morning Joe to discuss her new in-depth piece on the so-called Intellectual Dark Web – an agglomeration of thinkers from all sides of the political aisle who have been cast out by political correctness and now converse with one another regularly and publicly (full disclosure: I’m a charter member, along with friends including Sam Harris, Eric Weinstein, Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, and others). The entire premise of the IDW is that many on the Left refuse to acknowledge good-natured disagreement; instead, all disagreement must be due to nefarious evil on the part of those who disagree.
Proving the point on MSNBC was guest Eddie Glaude Jr., chair at the Center for African-American Studies at Princeton. When Weiss cited the discussions between me and Sam as evidence for the diversity of the movement, Glaude responded, “What allows you to describe these folks as intellectuals of sort? Let me say it differently. They’re connected intellectually by what common commitments? So you might have different ideological spaces, but when you talk about Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro in one sentence, I can see the connection between those two.” Weiss responded, logically enough, “Which is?” And Glaude explained:
Having something to do with how they think about race, having something to do with how they think about diversity in the country and the ways in which diversity is talked about, right? The way in which they think about political correctness. Weiss responded, “Yeah, they’re anti-identity politics, for sure.”
To which Glaude launched into a full defense of identity politics: “Identity politics is a phrase that kind of is a red herring. Identity politics is just simply questions of justice, right?”
At this point, Joe Scarborough jumped in and hit the nail directly on the head:
Eddie, you have just made Bari Weiss's point, that you disagree with the way Bari Weiss views the world, so you're going to help her view the world more the way you view the world. The entire purpose of the exercise is to have honest conversations with people, and to not question their morality, or their wisdom just because they don't view the world exactly the same way that you do.
The "Intellectual Dark Web," Explained: What Jordan Peterson has in Common with the Alt-Right
Bari Weiss, an opinion writer and editor at the New York Times, created a stir this week with a long article on a group that calls itself the "Intellectual Dark Web." The coinage referred to a loose collective of intellectuals and media personalities who believe they are "locked out" of mainstream media, in Weiss's words, and who are building their own ways to communicate with readers.
The thinkers profiled included the neuroscientist and prominent atheist writer Sam Harris, the podcaster Dave Rubin, and University of Toronto psychologist and Chaos Dragon maven Jordan Peterson.
Some assertions in the piece deserved the ridicule. But Weiss accurately captured a genuine perception among the people she is writing about (and, perhaps, for). They do feel isolated and marginalized, and with some justification. However, the reasons are quite different from those suggested by Weiss. She asserts that they have been marginalized because of their willingness to take on all topics and their determination not to "[parrot] what's politically convenient."
The truth is rather that dark web intellectuals, like Donald Trump supporters and the online alt-right, have experienced a sharp decline in their relative status over time. This is leading them to frustration and resentment.
[janrinok] And another contribution from Ari reviews Amanda Marcotte's new book:
Birth of a "Troll Nation": Amanda Marcotte on How and Why Conservatives Embraced the Dark Side
Interview at Salon with author Amanda Marcotte:
I had no role in editing Amanda Marcotte's new book, which bears the amusing and highly appropriate title, "Troll Nation: How the Right Became Trump-Worshipping Monsters Set on Rat-F*cking Liberals, America, and Truth Itself." None of it previously appeared in Salon, to be clear;
But "Troll Nation" is not about the election of Donald Trump. Amanda and I have certain areas of cheerfully-expressed political disagreement, but I think we share the view that Trump was the culmination of a long process, or is the most visible symptom of a widespread infection. Amanda's analysis is, as always, calm, sharp-witted and clearly focused on available evidence. American conservatives, she says, used to make rational arguments and used to present a positive social vision. Did those arguments make sense, in the end? Did that "Morning in America" vision of the Reagan years conceal a vibrant undercurrent of bigotry?
[...] How we got from the supercilious, upper-crust conservatism of William F. Buckley Jr., the dictionary definition of an elitist -- the dude could read and write Latin, for God's sake -- to the delusional ignorance of Alex Jones and #Pizzagate, the small-minded hatred of Charlottesville and the unquenchable thirst for "liberal tears" is one of the darkest mysteries of our time. It's also the story of "Troll Nation."
Original Submission #1 Original Submission #2 Original Submission #3
(Score: 5, Interesting) by julian on Sunday May 13 2018, @05:32AM (14 children)
I find it funny that these people get thrown in with the alt-right, or even traditional conservatism. All of the named people in the article and summary support universal healthcare, and some form of wealth redistribution to address growing inequality in an increasingly automated capitalist economy. Jordan Peterson, often thought of as a Christian conservative, is on video stating that he isn't even sure that the Resurrection is a literal historical fact.
These people aren't far-right radicals, they aren't even conservatives.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Sunday May 13 2018, @05:35AM (1 child)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 3, Informative) by BK on Sunday May 13 2018, @06:16PM
Therefore a wise prince will seek means by which his subjects will always and in every possible condition of things have need of his government, and then they will always be faithful to him.
— Niccolo Machiavelli, "The Prince"
...but you HAVE heard of me.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by xhedit on Sunday May 13 2018, @05:38AM (8 children)
What they are is people who don't agree with the progressive left. Everyone who doesn't agree with that particular orthodoxy got thrown in together, whether it's old lefties, libertarians, moderate republicans, whatever. You'd think progressives would ally with old lefties on economic issues, with libertarians on social issues, and on that trump is a twat with moderate republicans, but instead it's "YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME AT LEAST 90%, FUCK OFF" and a real shame.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Sunday May 13 2018, @05:42AM (7 children)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @02:59PM (5 children)
All that can be mirrored back on the alt right types as well. Extremism sucks, stop reinforcing the divisions.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Sunday May 13 2018, @03:37PM
Yes, I've said that repeatedly.
I'm not going to turn it into a mindless mantra that gets repeated along with everything else I say though. I reserve the right to criticize all these idiots individually as well as severally, without having to ritually condemn other groups in the same breath.
If I concentrate on the regressive left more it's simply because they're the ones that are sometimes given credibility and indeed praise. No one likes the nazis, so there's less real need to talk about what's wrong with nazis? you know, I think everyone already has a fairly good idea what's wrong with nazis. I don't talk about that much because (fortunately!) I don't need to talk about that so much.
Now one of the things I fear most about what they're doing now, with the situation in the US now; which has some uncomfortable parallels with what was going on with Germany back in the early 30s or thereabouts; well historically tone-deaf violent leftist extremists were quite the 'useful idiots' for the (actual) Nazis. And I'm very much afraid we are seeing that happen again here. So there will probably be more need to talk about why the Nazis are bad in the future, unfortunately, and I'm aware of that.
But setting is both time and place, now and here on Soylent is the setting, and we're currently knee deep in Che Guevara wannabe's who think old liberals like myself are 'nazis.' You wanna talk about how bad nazis are? There are one or two trolls that will have fun with you and everyone else yawns and moves on to the next post. Water is wet. Sheepdogs protect sheep. Han shot first. Tell me something I didn't know.
On the other hand seeing the decline of what passes for a left wing in this country is actually something I find worthy of comment.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2, Redundant) by jmorris on Sunday May 13 2018, @04:58PM (3 children)
Get on Gab and find out how wrong you are. The Alt-Right is a far more diverse and intellectually open movement than the Left. We got hard core Christians (both Catholic and Protestant of course), Odinists, militant Atheists and somehow (don't ask me) a few oddball Jews. We got both ironic and (I think) serious flat earthers, creationists, we got socialists, Nazis (ironic and serious), anarchists, minarchists, monarchists, libertarians, reactionaries, neoreactionaries, both feminists and anti-feminists. We all seem to agree on one thing, the world the Left made has went wrong. If you actually want to discuss ideas without worrying about being banhammered it is the place to be.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @08:51PM (1 child)
Why should we take such advice, when it very clearly did no such thing for you, jmorris?
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @09:52PM
Shoot, was going to mod you flamebait, but I somehow blew through all my mod points after modding up jmorris. He doesn't speak the same language many of us do, but he is absolutely correct. Neoliberal imperialist capitalism has brought society to the breaking point. That is perhaps best evinced by a trans woman/advanced infiltrator/lizard person (I think I hit all the keywords there) modding him up.
Your comments are contributing nothing. All you're accomplishing is showing the rest of us that you are a brownshirt.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 14 2018, @07:11PM
hey so seriously -- where would conservative jews go, besides the few oddballs?
it seems that gab attracts 'right leaning' people, either born that way or learned to lean that way. religion is just a part of ones worldview (except for those that make it their entire view).
you make it look like moderate conservatives wouldn't fit in there.
i know plenty of people that think to the right but don't want to associate with some of the people they see on the right. probably more so than those i know leaning left, who tend to be much more relaxed than specifically liberal.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by VLM on Sunday May 13 2018, @11:12PM
Very imaginative. The NRX people and the national socialist people and the alt-Lite people mercilessly tease each other when visiting "the other side's" podcasts or being discussed in right wing podcasts or other right wing media, which is a bit short of the sucker punch with a bike chain. The only people sucker punching with a bike chain are leftists.
There's a tendency to try to argue from the middle, but I'm on the right, enjoy right wing media, and nothing of what you claim happens on the right, trust me I'd have seen it personally, if its out there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @01:26PM
Ben Shapiro, the author of the first piece is a conservative. The yarmulke was possibly the biggest indicator to the far-left about his Nazi sympathies, he was also (according to the ADL in 2016) the main target of online anti-semitic abuse from the alt-right. The Weinstein brothers, Jonathon Haidt, Stephen Pinker, Sam Harris, Yaron Brook, Milo Yianopolis ... the far-left are busy working on a final solution to the problem of
Jewish intellectualNazi prominence in public life; perhaps they will end this privilege by making them all wear identifying badges?Still with the smears, calling anyone south of what Bret Weinstein calls the "Left Pole" a fascist and a Nazi. Meanwhile the residents of this Left Pole are the ones pushing identity politics and "social justice" which seek to persecute based on race, creed and any other characteristics the far-left can capitalise on by maligning as hate targets. The reason the far-left hate the Intellectual Dark Web is because they created this platform by deplatforming and slandering the participants.
(Score: 3, Informative) by crafoo on Sunday May 13 2018, @05:04PM (1 child)
They're pretty much classical liberals that believe in freedom, self-expression, and critical reasoning. That makes them enemies of the regressive left. Applying critical reasoning is directly counter to post-modernism philosophy. It doesn't hold up under careful consideration. So they must label these people as "evil" and shout down their arguments. They have no real counterargument other than "my feelings, my victimhood".
(Score: 2) by VLM on Sunday May 13 2018, @11:21PM
Hard to believe after centuries those are far right viewpoints.
What always happens toward the end of dominance of a civilizational outlook, is everything useful is not self evident to everyone, so even the rebels hold values like "freedom" and all the legacy civilization has that it solely owns only by itself will by definition be freakshow, so "muh feelings" and street violence is all the left has in 2018 because any idea they had that was any good in, say, 1776, has been co-opted away such that everyone holds it, more or less.
Adding to the fun is "everything goes leftward with time" because as adult supervision is grossed out and leaves for newer cleaner greener pastures, what remains goes further and further left because only the left is "left" behind. Excluding population growth of course, look at something even as simple as white flight from cities, Detroit, perhaps. Its not that Detroit went left wing because of invasions, its that everyone sane with the ability to leave ran like hell for the burbs, leaving behind clown world that only gets crazier the more sane people leave. See also, music, "hollywood", academia, legacy dying media, social media, The Boy Scouts, etc...