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[janrinok] For those of you who do not want to read about the 'extremes' of US politics (alt-right or left-wing) I suggest that you skip this story and wait for the next one. If you feel that we shouldn't publish any story that does not accord with your own, probably less extreme, views then perhaps you should remind yourself that we try to give everyone in our community the benefit of free speech and we do not intentionally censor or promote any particular view or political leaning. Of course, you are welcome to contribute your own comments in the subsequent discussion that will follow.
This MSNBC Guest Just Showed Why The Intellectual Dark Web Exists
On Tuesday, The New York Times’ Bari Weiss appeared on MSNBC’s Morning Joe to discuss her new in-depth piece on the so-called Intellectual Dark Web – an agglomeration of thinkers from all sides of the political aisle who have been cast out by political correctness and now converse with one another regularly and publicly (full disclosure: I’m a charter member, along with friends including Sam Harris, Eric Weinstein, Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, and others). The entire premise of the IDW is that many on the Left refuse to acknowledge good-natured disagreement; instead, all disagreement must be due to nefarious evil on the part of those who disagree.
Proving the point on MSNBC was guest Eddie Glaude Jr., chair at the Center for African-American Studies at Princeton. When Weiss cited the discussions between me and Sam as evidence for the diversity of the movement, Glaude responded, “What allows you to describe these folks as intellectuals of sort? Let me say it differently. They’re connected intellectually by what common commitments? So you might have different ideological spaces, but when you talk about Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro in one sentence, I can see the connection between those two.” Weiss responded, logically enough, “Which is?” And Glaude explained:
Having something to do with how they think about race, having something to do with how they think about diversity in the country and the ways in which diversity is talked about, right? The way in which they think about political correctness. Weiss responded, “Yeah, they’re anti-identity politics, for sure.”
To which Glaude launched into a full defense of identity politics: “Identity politics is a phrase that kind of is a red herring. Identity politics is just simply questions of justice, right?”
At this point, Joe Scarborough jumped in and hit the nail directly on the head:
Eddie, you have just made Bari Weiss's point, that you disagree with the way Bari Weiss views the world, so you're going to help her view the world more the way you view the world. The entire purpose of the exercise is to have honest conversations with people, and to not question their morality, or their wisdom just because they don't view the world exactly the same way that you do.
The "Intellectual Dark Web," Explained: What Jordan Peterson has in Common with the Alt-Right
Bari Weiss, an opinion writer and editor at the New York Times, created a stir this week with a long article on a group that calls itself the "Intellectual Dark Web." The coinage referred to a loose collective of intellectuals and media personalities who believe they are "locked out" of mainstream media, in Weiss's words, and who are building their own ways to communicate with readers.
The thinkers profiled included the neuroscientist and prominent atheist writer Sam Harris, the podcaster Dave Rubin, and University of Toronto psychologist and Chaos Dragon maven Jordan Peterson.
Some assertions in the piece deserved the ridicule. But Weiss accurately captured a genuine perception among the people she is writing about (and, perhaps, for). They do feel isolated and marginalized, and with some justification. However, the reasons are quite different from those suggested by Weiss. She asserts that they have been marginalized because of their willingness to take on all topics and their determination not to "[parrot] what's politically convenient."
The truth is rather that dark web intellectuals, like Donald Trump supporters and the online alt-right, have experienced a sharp decline in their relative status over time. This is leading them to frustration and resentment.
[janrinok] And another contribution from Ari reviews Amanda Marcotte's new book:
Birth of a "Troll Nation": Amanda Marcotte on How and Why Conservatives Embraced the Dark Side
Interview at Salon with author Amanda Marcotte:
I had no role in editing Amanda Marcotte's new book, which bears the amusing and highly appropriate title, "Troll Nation: How the Right Became Trump-Worshipping Monsters Set on Rat-F*cking Liberals, America, and Truth Itself." None of it previously appeared in Salon, to be clear;
But "Troll Nation" is not about the election of Donald Trump. Amanda and I have certain areas of cheerfully-expressed political disagreement, but I think we share the view that Trump was the culmination of a long process, or is the most visible symptom of a widespread infection. Amanda's analysis is, as always, calm, sharp-witted and clearly focused on available evidence. American conservatives, she says, used to make rational arguments and used to present a positive social vision. Did those arguments make sense, in the end? Did that "Morning in America" vision of the Reagan years conceal a vibrant undercurrent of bigotry?
[...] How we got from the supercilious, upper-crust conservatism of William F. Buckley Jr., the dictionary definition of an elitist -- the dude could read and write Latin, for God's sake -- to the delusional ignorance of Alex Jones and #Pizzagate, the small-minded hatred of Charlottesville and the unquenchable thirst for "liberal tears" is one of the darkest mysteries of our time. It's also the story of "Troll Nation."
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(Score: 4, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday May 13 2018, @11:53AM (10 children)
When you know not whereof you speak, your mouth is best used for chewing. I know plenty of Texans. Most of them appreciate a good racist joke. Plenty of them say nigger. None of them take it seriously though; they're just in it for the lulz. If you ask them out of the blue what group of Americans they hate most, they're either going to say Yankees or Californians to a man.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @03:13PM (3 children)
And if you believe they aren't racist you haven't been paying very good attention or you are just a moron. Given your penchant for idiocy I'll lean towards the latter.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday May 13 2018, @03:33PM (2 children)
No, sweetums, being a racist requires you judge people by their race. Jokes do not require this.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 13 2018, @08:11PM (1 child)
And the majority of people I know who have made racist jokes tend to have mild racist tendencies as well. Perhaps you are too "white" to actually notice racism that isn't in-your-face. Maybe you need to get out more, you seem to base your opinions of reality on some ideologically "pure" assumptions. Which is why you rocked that stupid sig and thought you were making some bold statement.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday May 13 2018, @08:30PM
You don't love my sig?! However shall I go on?! It was meant to annoy your type not make any deep statement, though feel free to learn something about yourself from it anyway.
The majority of people I know who make racial jokes have more races in their living family than the douchebags calling them racists. They're made in a good natured, tribalistic way, much in the same way us Sooners fans like to give the Longhorns fans shit every chance we get even though we'd still have their backs in a bar full of yankees. The traditional method is to take an already silly stereotype and push it to absurd lengths to render a situation comical. If your skin weren't tissue paper thin you would have realized this long ago.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by loonycyborg on Sunday May 13 2018, @04:07PM (5 children)
Hating and not considering someone a proper human being are different things. And racism is basically that: not considering some artificially chosen group of people to be, well, people. It didn't always exist in americas or anywhere else. Just at some point people decided to arrange this new mental shortcut so they could see who's master and who's property by color of their skin. If someone doesn't fit in this worldview it can be fixed by strategic termination of life. The few will sacrifice themselves so the rest will enjoy more ordered world where you can see who's who by color of their skin. But hate is not involved. How can you hate our own property, an object?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday May 13 2018, @07:06PM (3 children)
Erm... Yes, it did. In every civilization in history, in the Americas since they were first discovered by someone other than the natives, and among the natives themselves even. Believe it or not, hating someone over arbitrary differences or even just outsider status is one of the most common lines of human thinking there is.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1) by loonycyborg on Sunday May 13 2018, @08:34PM (2 children)
I was referring not to hate but to human pegging based on color of skin in particular.
(Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday May 14 2018, @12:14AM (1 child)
Fair enough but it gets the same answer. Human beings haven't even seriously attempted to work past their inherent tribalism until recently. You'll see a city or two that looked like they were throughout history but it was mostly an illusion caused by the city deciding it was easier to take foreigners' money in their markets than having to go out and take it from them at sword point; the discrimination still existed once you got past profit motivated civility.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Monday May 14 2018, @03:33AM
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Arik on Sunday May 13 2018, @07:38PM
How do you figure? Do you have any idea how many hunter gatherer tribes use a word to refer to themselves that means 'the real people?' Do you know anything about how chimpanzee groups interact?
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?