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posted by martyb on Friday June 01 2018, @04:04AM   Printer-friendly
from the pointed-question dept.

A judge has proposed a nationwide programme to file down the points of kitchen knives as a solution to the country’s soaring knife crime epidemic.

Last week in his valedictory address, retiring Luton Crown Court Judge Nic Madge spoke of his concern that carrying a knife had become routine in some circles and called on the Government to ban the sale of large pointed kitchen knives.

[...] He said laws designed to reduce the availability of weapons to young would-be offenders had had “almost no effect”, since the vast majority had merely taken knives from a cutlery drawer.

[...] He asked: “But why we do need eight-inch or ten-inch kitchen knives with points?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/27/knives-sharp-filing-solution-soaring-violent-crime-judge-says/


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  • (Score: 2) by tfried on Friday June 01 2018, @09:23AM (12 children)

    by tfried (5534) on Friday June 01 2018, @09:23AM (#687162)

    Let me repeat my main point:

    With a long blade (say 8+ inch), you are not going to do any precision work with the tip, anyway.

    Yes, a chef is going to do everything they need to do with a single knife. But that does not mean they are doing it with the tip of said knife. As also evidenced by the general purpose knifes that evolved in different cultures. The one thing they really have in common is a long sharp blade. (And don't tell me the santoku knife evolved due to a historical lack of blacksmith skills or lack of cooking culture).

    A fruit knife is a type of specialty knife, and it is not needed, but can come in handy when you need to prep a lot of similar stuff at once. In that context its special features are useful, but that does not make them necessary on a general purpose knife. Other examples of specialty knives are peeling knifes and bread knifes. A chef will not shy away from using those every once in a while (and neither from cutting bread or peeling potatoes with the chef knife), but clearly twin blades or a saw blade are not desirable features on a general purpose knife.

    Well, I'm not trying to stop anyone from using western chef knives. But hands up: Who of those reading is actually using the pointy tip on a blade of 8 inches or longer? (Note: Looking for uses that really require a pointy tip, here. E.g. "piercing a package in order to open it" does not really qualify, because it's perfectly possible with the "dull" tip on a santoku knife or even a cleaver.)

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  • (Score: 1, Redundant) by Runaway1956 on Friday June 01 2018, @03:33PM (3 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday June 01 2018, @03:33PM (#687275) Journal

    I'll point out that a chef's knife is sometimes a two-handed tool. It's not exactly my style, but I've watched people put both hands on the back of the knife, and rock it. I prefer to lift the knife up onto it's point, and rock it one-handed, but those two handed people can mince stuff surprisingly small.

    Point is, the chef's knife really IS a multi-purpose tool, and different people use it in different ways.

    For that matter, taking the point off of the chef's knife would ruin my own mincing/rocking motion. I've just lost the two or three inches of the knife that gives the most leverage in the rocking motion. Thanks a lot!

    You can have my pointy knives when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

    • (Score: 2) by tfried on Friday June 01 2018, @06:34PM

      by tfried (5534) on Friday June 01 2018, @06:34PM (#687372)

      So what you're saying is the pointed tip does not really serve an important purpose in itself, but is a side-effect of the curvature near the end of the blade?

      Well, that, at least, makes sense to me. A santoku knife does have less curvature, there, and therefore can handle less height in a rocking motion. I can understand that people may have different preferences in that respect.

      (But should I ever feel the need to pry your pointy knives from your cold, dead hands, I'll be using my santoku for that purpose ;-)

    • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Friday June 01 2018, @07:51PM (1 child)

      by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Friday June 01 2018, @07:51PM (#687416) Journal

      You want to rock with control? Get a mezzaluna or an ulu. And there's no need to a have a pointy chef's knife just to make it rock for chopping.

      (Note -- as I said below, there are lots of uses for long knives with points. Chopping with a rocking motion isn't really one that requires one.)

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 01 2018, @03:59PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 01 2018, @03:59PM (#687289)

    You clearly don't cook if you seem to think that someone using an 8" chef's knife doesn't use the point. I do a lot of prep work and use the point plenty.

    • (Score: 2) by tfried on Friday June 01 2018, @06:44PM (2 children)

      by tfried (5534) on Friday June 01 2018, @06:44PM (#687378)

      I'll have to admit that I started the hostilities, myself, but I still find it irritating that some people assume you cannot cook (ambitiously) without a western style chef's knife. A santoku is my general purpose knife of choice, in case you have not guessed.

      That said I am totally willing to believe that you are using the point on your 8'' chef's knife, but I still fail to imagine, how. Runaway says it's to allow for better rocking, which I can understand, although it really makes the pointy tip a side effect of the curved design, and not a feature in its own right. So when you say you are using the point, plenty, what else are you actually doing with it?

      (Just in case, I'll repeat that my point is not to defeat that judge's ridiculous idea. Just plain honest curiosity.)

      • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Friday June 01 2018, @07:56PM

        by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Friday June 01 2018, @07:56PM (#687418) Journal

        I still find it irritating that some people assume you cannot cook (ambitiously) without a western style chef's knife.

        I replied below with a much longer list of reasons why I use a long knife with a point. But I do agree with you that you CAN certainly cook ambitiously without a western-style chef's knife. Many tasks might require more than one knife to do easily or well, but it's certainly possible. And while the chef's knife is a good all-purpose tool, it certainly isn't a necessary one.

        That said, if you do certain more specific kinds of tasks, it's still really useful to have long knives with tips. Asian cooking has all sorts of knives like this -- they just tend to be more specialized than the western chef's knife.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday June 02 2018, @03:03AM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 02 2018, @03:03AM (#687554) Journal

        but I still find it irritating that some people assume you cannot cook (ambitiously) without a western style chef's knife.

        Who would that be? I think it more that someone who can't think of a reason for having a point on a knife, probably has some serious knowledge or imagination deficiencies as a cook.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by AthanasiusKircher on Friday June 01 2018, @07:44PM (2 children)

    by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Friday June 01 2018, @07:44PM (#687413) Journal

    But hands up: Who of those reading is actually using the pointy tip on a blade of 8 inches or longer?

    [Raises hand tentatively...]

    There are a few rare tasks where a long knife with a pointy tip is really handy. Cutting up watermelons and similar things comes to mind. Not that you couldn't do it with other knives, but a long chef's knife is easy.

    The whole point (no pun intended) of using a traditional chef's knife is the diverse options. For most applications where you'd use the point, a smaller knife is better, but sometimes you just don't want to dirty another knife for a couple short cuts. I'm not going to hull strawberries with an 8-inch chef's knife, but if I'm cutting up a single tomato for dinner and need a piercing knife to cut around the stem end, I'll do it with my chef's knife rather than pulling out another knife just for that purpose. (And I'm using a chef's knife likely because I'm chopping up other vegetables already.) Or, if I'm dicing up potatoes and just need to cut out a couple eyes -- again, the point is useful. In a pinch, you can even grab the back of the knife closer to the blade with your hand and hold the knife briefly that way if you need precision for just a couple cuts. (I don't usually do that, but again it can avoid dirtying another knife.) When mincing onions or garlic, the point can also be really convenient, though you certainly can do it with an Asian-style knife too. I frequently use my nakiri for similar tasks (with no point), but will pull out my gyuto at times too (or my Western-style chef's knife).

    But mostly the point is useful for larger pieces of food, and traditionally chef's knives have points partly to deal with the smaller-scale butchering processes in meat preparation. If you're cutting up a turkey or if you are cutting up large pieces of meat and sometimes need a tip to help trimming fat or cutting nearer to a bone or whatever, they can be very useful.

    Again, in almost all cases, there are more specialized knives more suited to a particular task -- though for meat fabrication, if you take the point from my chef's knife, you'd better at least leave me with a decent-length boning knife that's going to have a sharp point (and would be just as dangerous for stabbing). I don't do a lot of fish prep, but since you bring up Asian-style knives, note that there are a few different long pointy Asian knives that tend to be used there too (like the yanagiba) -- again, if you actually work with larger pieces of meat (of any sort), having a tip on the knife is often really helpful at various times.

    Bottom line is that the most common knife I pull out for random tasks in making dinner every evening is an 8-inch European chef's knife or gyuto. I can often get everything (or almost everything) done with just one knife. If I'll be doing more tasks or need precision work, I'll pull out various smaller knives, or if I'll be doing a lot of chopping/vegetable work, I'll use a nakiri. If I'm not doing a lot of chopping, I'll use a petty instead, but I'll still want the tip usually for something or other.

    • (Score: 2) by tfried on Friday June 01 2018, @08:43PM (1 child)

      by tfried (5534) on Friday June 01 2018, @08:43PM (#687446)

      Thanks for the detailed reply (and I've modded you up). For quick hacks like cutting out a few stems or potato eyes, I'm often using my santoku, too. And while I'll have to concede a small advantage to the chef's knife, here, those use cases are not important enough to change my general preference. (And, as you say, if they were more important, we'd be using neither chef's knife nor santoku, nor any other long blade).

      But so I guess I now understand that the primary reason that I don't miss a (pronounced) pointy tip on my santoku is that I'm not cooking a whole lot of meat. Well that, and probably some random luck with the respective specimens of chef's knives and santokus that I've tried.

      • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Friday June 01 2018, @11:29PM

        by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Friday June 01 2018, @11:29PM (#687506) Journal

        Yeah, even if you cooked more with meat, you generally won't *need* a very long knife with a point unless you're working with larger bits of meat. Usually for smaller work a good flexible boning knife (and/or fillet knife if you do a lot of fish) and a sturdier knife (I prefer a honesuki over a western-style butcher's knife) are fine... And don't need to be 8 inches (or more) long. But these knives are pointy, which you really need for boning and trimming.

  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday June 02 2018, @02:59AM

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 02 2018, @02:59AM (#687552) Journal

    Let me repeat my main point:

    With a long blade (say 8+ inch), you are not going to do any precision work with the tip, anyway.

    And the point of the chef's knife example is that you are wrong here. They do use 8+ inch knives for precision work with the tip, such as stripping meat off bones or piecing hard-skinned vegetables.