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posted by chromas on Saturday July 28 2018, @12:16PM   Printer-friendly
from the progress dept.

Another German state plans switch back from Linux to Windows

The German state of Lower Saxony plans to follow Munich's example, and migrate a reported 13,000 users from Linux back to Windows.

Apparently undaunted by the cost of the Munich switch (which we reported in January could be as much as €100m), Lower Saxony is considering making the change in its tax office. The state seems to expect a much cheaper transition, with Heise (in German here) reporting the first-year budget is €5.9m, and another €7m further out.

The tax office argues its decision is driven by compatibility: field workers and teleworkers overwhelmingly use Windows, while the OpenSUSE variants are installed on its office workstations. The office workstations are also ageing and due for replacement, something that helped open the door for Windows.

Related: Linux Champion Munich Takes Decisive Step Towards Returning to Windows
Munich Switching From Linux to Windows 10
German Documentary on Relations Between Microsoft and Public Administration Now Available in English


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  • (Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Saturday July 28 2018, @12:18PM (77 children)

    by opinionated_science (4031) on Saturday July 28 2018, @12:18PM (#713973)

    "Bribe threshold found by German officials.".

    WTF?

    Starting Score:    1  point
    Karma-Bonus Modifier   +1  

    Total Score:   2  
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by bobthecimmerian on Saturday July 28 2018, @12:42PM (49 children)

    by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Saturday July 28 2018, @12:42PM (#713976)

    Most people are neither a technology power user nor informed and interested in the freedom and privacy that comes with open source software. To them, any divergence from what they already know and are familiar with is just a headache. I would bet you experience this all of the time with your family and friends, and even from many of your colleagues in the tech industry. So the cost savings, freedom, privacy, and customizability of OpenSUSE matters less to the people using it and the people they deal with than compatibility with the market standard. It sucks, you hate it, I hate it. But there we are.

    I don't blame Munich or Lower Saxony alone for screwing this up. I also blame the rest of the world for letting the market reach this state.

    The lesson here for people like me who want to see widespread open source / free software adoption is that compatibility with existing systems is the primary obstacle. 99% of desktops and laptops have x86 family processors in 2018 because 100% had them in 2008. Maybe ReactOS and to a lesser extent Wine are critical to breaking the Microsoft desktop monopoly.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @01:09PM (24 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @01:09PM (#713980)

      People like what they know.

      I have worked at banks. They live and breath excel. All of the banks do this. Thousands and thousands of one off excel spreadsheets and workbooks. Hundreds of thousands of the things. The software the banks are writing is trying to get away from everyone reinventing the same spreadsheets over and over. You sit in the meetings to get exactly what they do. They start listing off the 'must have' features. Every time, "you just reinvented excel". Could they use a open source version of it like calc? Sure. Right up until it does not work with their spreadsheet, or becomes a pain in the ass to use. Then it is 'screw this' give me excel.

      You see you are approaching open source in the wrong way. They USERS will demand what they need. Right now that demand is not open source desktop programs. You can bully them but they are going to go with what they know and just work around you. You pretend you can just drop it in front of these people and they will be cool with it. No they will not be. Eventually some of them will get to be 'in charge'. Guess what? Your 'free system' is out the window and a 'waste of time'. You need to make the user want and *need* it. It has to be *obvious* that it is better. "free" does not get the job done. The end users *do* *not* *care*. They just want to get shit done and quickly. They do not worry about cost. As they do not even pay for it in the first place. If someone offers most people a free copy of office or a free copy of open office. Most will just take the copy of office and be done with it. That is what you are 'competing' against. Free does not cut it. Better does. It is why MS has basically been tossed out of the data centers. Their software is not nearly as good as the free stuff at this point. The opposite is also true in the desktop world. Android is what vendor lock in looks like with linux.

      • (Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Saturday July 28 2018, @01:46PM

        by opinionated_science (4031) on Saturday July 28 2018, @01:46PM (#713988)

        actually, micro$oft does make an android version of their Word etc.. suite. It came on my Samsung S3.

        I'll bet there are some limitations programmed in, but it shows the world has changed *a bit*.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by AthanasiusKircher on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:43PM (14 children)

        by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:43PM (#713996) Journal

        Completely agree with most points. Although..

        People like what they know.

        Which is a solid argument for open-source alternatives in any rational world. Companies like Microsoft are notorious for making major changes to their OS and applications, often which break compatibility (especially if you get a couple versions behind). And things like UI change radically (e.g., the Office ribbon in 2007, the various redesigns of Windows in the past decade+).

        Users of proprietary software are generally just told to "suck it up" and deal with constant changes that are out of their control. If a business fails to upgrade for a while, eventually the old version will be deprecated and they're stuck with a massive sudden upgrade or paying for special support.

        Popular open-source is a lot different. Backwards compatibility and constancy in UI choices is often highly prized -- and if significant changes are made, often there's an option to configure it like the older version. If not, and it was a popular piece of software, someone's going to fork it and maintain something like the old version for a while. If a company/government needed something like that maintained indefinitely, it would certainly be cheaper than paying for proprietary licenses over the years and constantly training workers on capricious proprietary "upgrades" or paying a proprietary company to maintain support for a deprecated version.

        Guess what? Your 'free system' is out the window and a 'waste of time'.

        As noted, dealing with fickle proprietary support and changes you can't control is arguably a bigger "waste of time" by any rational analysis.

        The real problem is just market share. It's really that simple. MS Office is the most common suite, so it's the expectation, even with its many faults and inconstancy. Until that expectation changes, companies and governments will continue shell out lots of money and put up with MS BS for no good reason other than "it's the industry standard."

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by leftover on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:59PM (4 children)

          by leftover (2448) on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:59PM (#713998)

          ... "in any rational world"

          Let me know if someone ever finds any such world.

          --
          Bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated.
          • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:16PM (3 children)

            by acid andy (1683) on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:16PM (#714005) Homepage Journal

            Vulcan? Although some of their traditions and rituals seem a little irrational.

            --
            If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
            • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:02PM (2 children)

              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:02PM (#714018)

              Vulcans are almost as much comic book material as superheroes: overly simplified characters with limited dimensions of difference from everyday people.

              --
              🌻🌻 [google.com]
              • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:41PM (1 child)

                by acid andy (1683) on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:41PM (#714027) Homepage Journal

                *Gasps!* Sacrelige! Sacrelige! Out, you heretic! Take it back I say! ;)

                limited dimensions of difference from everyday people

                Only when they're half human...

                --
                If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:30PM

                  by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:30PM (#714040)

                  Oh, when they're half human they're at least twice as complex.

                  Full Vulcans are just highly repressed with explosive outlets like PonFarr... when they're half human they struggle with trying to balance that repression with human feeling, in a shallowly written kind of way.

                  --
                  🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Gaaark on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:19PM (7 children)

          by Gaaark (41) on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:19PM (#714021) Journal

          What i think governments should be looking to is backward compatibility, which MS is HIGHLY against:
          they should push that EVERY document ever created is easily opened by ANY version of MS Office, 365, word, etc at ANY time, therefore eliminating the problem of older documents not being viewable unless they happen to have an old copy of Office, etc laying around or on an old PC.

          THAT WAY, libreoffice, etc, would have a chance at compatibility and giving the user a BETTER experience than Office: WAY too much time is spent trying to keep libreoffice compatible with MS office.

          Push for ANY DOCUMENT AT ANY TIME.
          We need politicians that are SMART and not in the pockets of big business... until we have that, there is almost no chance.

          --
          --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: 5, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Sunday July 29 2018, @12:44AM (6 children)

            by bzipitidoo (4388) on Sunday July 29 2018, @12:44AM (#714163) Journal

            What I suspect is that the gp is FUD and propaganda written by M$ shills, and lots of people here fell for it. A key phrase I've often seen from M$ shills is "they just want to get shit done", as if it's a given that LibreOffice can't possibly match M$ Office on that squishy measure. They even cunningly concede that Linux beats Windows in the server room, making all their sly innuendos favoring M$ Office over LibreOffice sound more legit.

            When it comes to compatibility and open and standard file formats, and assurance that work done decades ago can still be read without having to dig out an ancient copy of M$ Office including an equally ancient version of Windows that it will run on, plus either matching ancient hardware or an emulator, LibreOffice beats the stuffings out of M$ Office.

            If the gp was indeed written by M$ shills, then SoylentNews may take it as a mark of progress, of sorts, that the shills think this news site is worth the effort. Congratulations, I guess?

            • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday July 29 2018, @02:00AM (5 children)

              by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Sunday July 29 2018, @02:00AM (#714186) Journal

              Who exactly are you calling a "shill"? I'm GP here relative to your post, and I argued strongly in favor of open source.

              And no, I sincerely doubt there are "shills" here. Believe it or not, some people actually like Microsoft or prefer Office. For all sorts of reasons. It's only in very unusual enclaves like this site that you don't tend to find large numbers of people saying "Office just works for my needs," etc.

              • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Sunday July 29 2018, @08:10AM (2 children)

                by bzipitidoo (4388) on Sunday July 29 2018, @08:10AM (#714265) Journal

                Ah, sorry, meant the ggp-- the AC post with "get shit done" in it.

                • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday July 29 2018, @05:34PM (1 child)

                  by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Sunday July 29 2018, @05:34PM (#714411) Journal

                  No prob. I was just confused because I really didn't read the GGP post you were referring to as particularly pro-MS. It was just an analysis of why MS is dominant, not saying it was better. (My take anyway.)

                  • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Monday July 30 2018, @12:25AM

                    by bzipitidoo (4388) on Monday July 30 2018, @12:25AM (#714532) Journal

                    Yes, it's a very cunning bit of propaganda that on the surface and with a quick read doesn't seem all that pro-M$. Take a closer look though.

                    This one is a gem: "Could they use a open source version of it like calc? Sure. Right up until it does not work with their spreadsheet, or becomes a pain in the ass to use. Then it is 'screw this' give me excel." Nice implication there that calc has problems that are so severe it can't be fixed or worked with but must be abandoned-- it's a great example of M$ FUD-- while Excel just works and is easy to use, and doesn't have plenty of problems of its own.

                    And then there is this one: "Free does not cut it. Better does". Free and better can't possibly apply to the same thing? They're subtly playing the readers, suckering them into feeling that "you get what you pay for" is true.

                    Note also that despite being an AC, it was modded up to a 4. I certainly would expect shills to have sock puppet accounts handy for some fake modding.

                    Oh, and you doubt that shills would try astroturfing on SoylentNews? That the community here is too knowledgeable to be fooled? They're not gunning for the members, though if any regulars fall for it, they won't feel like that's a waste. They're really trying to sway less knowledgeable, less tech oriented people, either those who visit occasionally and never post but just lurk, or those who might stumble upon this discussion, perhaps through a search.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:51PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:51PM (#714380)

                I wouldnt doubt there are are shills if i were you. Massive corporations can EASILY afford some schmuck who goes around shit posting in their favor. There are businesses built on managing just such "grass roots" PR. If i was MS i would 100% be doing so.

                • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday July 29 2018, @05:31PM

                  by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Sunday July 29 2018, @05:31PM (#714409) Journal

                  Here?? You'd be wasting your time paying someone to shill HERE?? For heaven's sake, why? The vast majority of users here seem pro-open source and anti-MS. You're not going to g to convince anyone here. The best you can do is troll.

                  Trolls here, yes. Obviously. Shills for MS? Highly doubt it.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:28PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:28PM (#714139)

          You make it sound like linux breaks compatibility less! yeah, no

      • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:29PM (2 children)

        by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:29PM (#714039) Homepage Journal

        Excel is marginally better than Libre Office. That said, I almost never use Excel. Libre will read and write all the office files except technology's biggest time waster, PowerPoint. IMO PowerPoint should have never been written!

        --
        mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:35PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:35PM (#714143)

          I love linux. But excel is about 5 times better than libreoffice calc. And crashes less. A microsoft product crashing less than open source? Something is very wrong with libreoffice. and dont get me started on ease of use!

          • (Score: 2) by gawdonblue on Sunday July 29 2018, @01:38AM

            by gawdonblue (412) on Sunday July 29 2018, @01:38AM (#714179)

            I use both - Excel at work with VBA shite and Calc for my own stuff. Which one crashes less? I haven't had either crash for many years but I have had Excel lock up with VBA issues or (years ago) with too many rows. Which is easier to use? For me it's Calc, mostly because I'm still not used to the ribbon (read "don't like").

            But do tell us about your crashes, and also please explain your ease of use issues. I've always used the claim "5 times better" in an ironic sense when dismissing some random claim by a snake-oil salesman, but in your case I'm hoping for genuine enlightenment from someone who loves linux!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @06:58PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @06:58PM (#714056)

        >They just want to get shit done and quickly.

        every fucking time i couldn't get shit done quickly, it was because of a closed source OS, proprietary data format, and platform incompatibility.

        Presentation looks like shit? you need Calibri font. Oh but you cannot get it, it's proprietary. Sorry!!! No you cannot hook up your PC, we only have VGA. Export in pdf, pdf to bitmap and so on.

        You are describing the "I know windows, have too many stuff hostage of windows". Which BTW is kind of an obsolete situation from what I see around. Fine, let closed source decide when you WILL be forced to change. Because it will happen. There is no money to be done otherwise.

        tldr people who don't know what they want should stop screeching about it.

      • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:59PM (3 children)

        by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:59PM (#714097)

        Well, "open source" just means "open source". What you really meant in your post was "open source capable of supplanting proprietary software by mass end user choice alone".

        With respect to your Excel example, I think the situation goes even further than you state. I work with people that won't use Excel in a browser with Office 365. They want the Excel desktop experience they know, and even an equivalent product from Microsoft - let alone a third party open source alternative - with all of the same features is unacceptable just because a few buttons were moved or renamed.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:32PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:32PM (#714142)

          Having tried to use libre office calc... it's shit.

          If I can't even find the buttons there's a problem.

          I say this as a Linux user and lover who has been using Linux as my system for around 7 years, libre/openoffice is shit. I have to learn random bits of latex to get anything done (in LyX), calc crashes every 5 seconds, etc. That's not going to fly for non-techies.

          • (Score: 3, Touché) by maxwell demon on Sunday July 29 2018, @07:21AM

            by maxwell demon (1608) on Sunday July 29 2018, @07:21AM (#714256) Journal

            I say this as a Linux user and lover who has been using Linux as my system for around 7 years,

            I don't believe you.

            I have to learn random bits of latex to get anything done (in LyX)

            First, LyX is not part of either OpenOffice or LibreOffice. Second, LyX is a LaTeX front end, what did you expect?

            calc crashes every 5 seconds

            I've never had calc crash on me once. Now I'm not a heavy user of it, but if it were really as bad as you describe, I should have had a few thousand crashes by now.

            --
            The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
          • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:02PM

            by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:02PM (#714361)

            I haven't used LibreOffice Calc for anything extra complicated, but for the stuff I thrown at it, it's been rock solid. I used it with company spreadsheets because I was too lazy to install Office for years.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by theluggage on Saturday July 28 2018, @01:44PM (5 children)

      by theluggage (1797) on Saturday July 28 2018, @01:44PM (#713987)

      Maybe ReactOS and to a lesser extent Wine are critical to breaking the Microsoft desktop monopoly.

      i think, now, the MS desktop monopoly is more about Office and Exchange/Outlook than it is about Windows - a monopoly that extends to Macs if not Android/iOS. FOSS developers have done a sterling job of supporting MS file formats and protocols - its not their fault - but its still fingers-crossed if you try to load a complex MS Office file into Libre/Open office... and once you need MS Office anyway for "compatibility" purposes, the FOSS alternatives aren't so compellingly superior that you'd use them rather than Office unless you had ideological motives.

      The biggest challenge to MS is the switch to "cloud" apps like Google Docs. The words "Frying pan" and "Fire" spring to mind.

      • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:17PM (3 children)

        by mhajicek (51) on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:17PM (#714006)

        For me it's about windows only CAD and CAM software. The free and open source stuff that works on Linux is a pale shade, not even close to professional level, especially for 5 axis. And the professional level software doesn't run in Wine.

        --
        The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by ElizabethGreene on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:29PM (2 children)

          by ElizabethGreene (6748) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:29PM (#714010) Journal

          Is there anything FOSS that does 4 or 5 axis? When I looked last year I couldn't find anything > 3 axis. Even for the 3-axis stuff the difference between FOSS and Closed source is stone knives and bear claws vs. scalpels and lasers.

          • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Saturday July 28 2018, @10:41PM (1 child)

            by mhajicek (51) on Saturday July 28 2018, @10:41PM (#714126)

            That's my experience as well. I think there's one proprietary software that does it well AND can run on Linux, but it's around $30K to $50K per seat. Can't afford that.

            --
            The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
            • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @04:49AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @04:49AM (#714236)

              You may have Pro/Engineer in mind which has been rebranded as Creo Elements/Pro [wikipedia.org]. Haven't used it myself but heard lots of good things, one of which was "runs on Linux". Alas, this was in a former life as a draftsman and while the license costs for Pro/E have stayed firmly in the ludicrous realm, checking on the Wikipedia article reveals that Linux is no longer supported.

              Guess automotive and aerospace - the target market for ridiculously expensive 3D CAD software - won't let go of Windows :(

      • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:31PM

        by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:31PM (#714041) Homepage Journal

        We had Outlook at work. Horrible email client, I'm glad I'm retired and don't have to use it (I like Thunderbird).

        --
        mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:24PM (4 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:24PM (#713991) Journal

      I read the story on Munich. I'm afraid that your take isn't *entirely* accurate, Bob. Those people, the individuals using the system, in Munich, made the switch to Linux. There was some grousing about switching, early on. And, of course, some hard core persons continued to grouse later on. But, all in all, the users got used to the system, they adapted, and used the system, just as they would use any system.

      Then, Munich got a new mayor, who had ties to Microsoft. The administration shitcanned Linux. There was no push from the rank and file - the politicians decided that they liked that Microsoft kickback.

      Like you, I don't blame Munich. I blame corrupt politicians, and corrupt businessmen.

      I have not yet read enough about Lower Saxony to form an opinion. I am, however, primed to learn the same sort of thing that happened in Munich. If Germany allowed the corrupt assholes to rape Munich for all that money, I'm sure that Germany would allow the same thing to happen in Lower Saxony.

      Now - addressing your "leson to be learned" - I'm forced to agree with you. I switched my wife over to Linux, several years ago. I think it's about a decade now. Anyway, she was OK with Linux. She did have to change her usage and habits a little bit, but she was OK with it. Her hardware finally failed, she decided to build a new computer, and she paid (OMG, actually PAID FOR) an OEM disk with her purchase. I asked "Why?" and she says that some of her games just didn't run right on Linux. She figured that it was worth it to her, to pay for a valid license, so she could run the games she wanted to play.

      Well, I thought about beating her to death with that disk, but, she paid for it with her own money. Judges around here may be open minded, but they would frown upon a man beating his wife to death for spending her own money. ;^)

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:27PM (2 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:27PM (#713993) Journal

        Oh, God, I didn't put any sarcasm tags on that last bit. Someone is sure to come unglued over my comments. Relax, folks! I DID NOT think about beating the wife to death! Well - not much, anyway.

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by melikamp on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:40PM

          by melikamp (1886) on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:40PM (#713994) Journal

          Oh, God, I didn't put any sarcasm tags on that last bit.

          Yeah, that would REALLY help to communicate your point that much more effectively. (◔_◔)

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by loonycyborg on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:24PM

          by loonycyborg (6905) on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:24PM (#714037)

          Just remember 3S: Safe, sane and consensual.

      • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Saturday July 28 2018, @09:03PM

        by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Saturday July 28 2018, @09:03PM (#714101)

        I read a bit about the Munich corruption rumor, but wasn't sure how much was accurate and how much was FUD (from the open source community instead of against it, for once).

        Sorry about your wife's situation. My wife is a satisfied Linux user but that's only because her whole digital life is GMail, Facebook, and Amazon - so proprietary web services she can access through Firefox "liberated" her from Windows. It's not a win, not really. At this point I think Microsoft is less of a privacy risk to consumers than those three - and I hate Microsoft.

    • (Score: 2) by Bot on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:04PM (11 children)

      by Bot (3902) on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:04PM (#714000) Journal

      > To them, any divergence from what they already know and are familiar with is just a headache.

      That's why I still use a non systemd distro.

      The headache, under windows, will come every time the management decide that a UX radical change is needed to gain 1 cent more. So, true, but still an excuse.

      Bureaucrats need windows OR systemd. It's the scapegoat.

      The only way for them to choose the best overall system is to make them pay for the infrastructure out of their own money. Do that and see how they plug a keyboard to their phone and proclaim that really all they need was email and a database which can run fine on that old core 2 duo for decades.

      --
      Account abandoned.
      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:51PM (5 children)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:51PM (#714014)

        That's why I still use a non systemd distro.

        Happily, I'm ignorant enough of the non systemd methods that I can find equivalent systemd help via Google and get by just fine with the systemd distros.

        As a bonus, they also seem to perform better: highly visible during boot times.

        I'm sure if I were a super wizard with the old incantations, I'd resent having to learn something new, especially during its development when advantages were dubious and disadvantages were highly visible. As it is, systemd serves me well enough, and staying with the mainstream distros also reduces headache and handwork for me.

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:44PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:44PM (#714028)

          I use Devuan on my systems. Like Linux used to be, less complex, boots up and then gets out of the way for the application. Reduces headache and hassle for me.

          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:10PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:10PM (#714034)

            I've put Devuan on my embedded systems. SystemD for 25s faster boot times? These fuckers shouldn't reboot at all. SystemD for "seat management"? Lunacy. These machines have one job, controlling hardware, not running 50 keyboards and screens from the same computer.
            Someone mentioned before how Linux pushed Windoze out of the data centers because it was the best server OS. So the distro people declare that every Linux should have facilities for desktops shoehorned in? I'd rather be running BSD, if the Linux kernel weren't so much more capable on all kinds of hardware.

          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday July 29 2018, @07:54AM

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 29 2018, @07:54AM (#714264) Journal

            Well, by sheer coincidence, I actually tried to install Devuan Ascii on a computer yesterday. I am a dedicated linux user, having used it solely since about 2005.

            Firstly, it was like going back a decade. I know how to partition disks, but why should I have to? I also know how to light a fire by the methods used by our ancestors, but I wouldn't recommend it for every day use - we've mastered central heating. Devuan asks me to partition my disks. Every other distro in the last 10 years does this automatically, but not Devuan.

            Most distros install in about 10-15 minutes with my internet connection (for updates) but not Devuan. Over twice as long but for no apparent reason. And finally it failed to install grub, so the entire thing would not boot until I got my hands dirty again and finished off doing what Devuan could not.

            And it didn't install updates from the internet - unlike Debian from which it is supposedly forked, nor could I select English (GB) as only English (US) was given as an option. So for me it is a distro that I will quite happily live without.

            I realise that many of you will respond that it works for you, and I am very pleased for you. But I am just as happy using a different distro that just does what it says and lets me get on with using the computer rather than playing with it. Systemd works, I've personally never heard of anyone having any of the problems that the doom-and-gloom merchants predicted would happen. I'm sure that they have occurred somewhere, but not in the numbers that were first imagined.

            And that might be the same problem that Linux is having being accepted in Germany. It might be that the politicians are corrupt, but it might also be that there are enough oddball examples which make it simply harder to support for someone who doesn't want to partition disks manually, or would like to use their own language rather than one that is 'suggested' as being the correct one.

            On the other side of the coin, the experience in Lower Saxony demonstrates the very reason that they initially elected to switch to Linux in the first instance. They are locked in to Window's proprietary formats with the inability to transfer data between Window's systems in the field and office systems running Linux. So their solution to that problem seems to be to roll over and accept the proprietary system.... I hope that make sense to them, it doesn't to me.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:41PM (1 child)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:41PM (#714089) Journal

          I'm running a mix of Void and Artix, both with Runit init system, and my machines are at the SDDM prompt in 10 seconds, less the time it takes me to type in and validate the LUKS passphrase. Systemd is no faster than Runit, and in my experience, slower. It's even better than OpenRC, which was my first init as I started on Gentoo.

          Give Artix a try if you're not running anything mission-critical (it is still an Arch-alike after all...).

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 28 2018, @09:58PM

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday July 28 2018, @09:58PM (#714118)

            My main boot-time experience with systemd vs not was on Raspbian... I think they're systemd by default now, but at a point in the past it was an option, an option that reduced boot time by about 50%. Surely both can be tweaked and tuned to similar speeds, but that seems like work best left to other people, especially with mainstream hardware like a Pi.

            My new desktop is a NUC 7i5 running Ubuntu 18.04 - it had a hiccough in boot time, was running > 1 minute, but was pretty quick and easy to find the culprit and the fix, I'm at desktop with gmail loaded within about 20 seconds from power on now, fast enough for me to shutdown without thinking about how long it's going to take to boot back up.

            I did the Gentoo thing, long ago when Gentoo was the only 64 bit option out there... when that machine died of terminal dust impaction, I loaded Ubuntu on the next one and never looked back. Gentoo was semi-entertaining to watch install, but I've got better things to do with my time.

            --
            🌻🌻 [google.com]
      • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:56PM (4 children)

        by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:56PM (#714096)

        I don't see what systemd has to do with any of this. Nobody is forced to use it. Nobody is blocked from using something else, or blocked from producing their own fork.

        That's totally different from proprietary software. You seem to have the common mistaken belief that "free software" means "I have a right to demand that the community follow my own preferences". FreeBSD doesn't use systemd. Void Linux doesn't use it. Gentoo can be run with or without it. Choose one of those, or make your own.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @10:44PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @10:44PM (#714128)

          Kinda. I really don't care if redshat screws the pooch with systemd, but the BS where things that should not care about init are dependent on systemd pisses me off. I've been able to continue to run Debian through Stretch (v9) with systemd purged, but recently I installed Debian testing (will be Buster), on a new laptop my work gave me. When I went to purge systemd, just about half the f-ing system was going to be uninstalled because systemd was a dependency.

          Someone a few years ago described systemd as a cancer. I have to agree.

          • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @05:52AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @05:52AM (#714246)

            I have a different theory: SystemD is the NSA's Linux backdoor. I know, this sounds tin-foil-hattery nutty, but it's one of the few explanations that make sense (another one being that Lennart Poettering is one of the most elaborate and succesful trolls in history).

            • SystemD originated from and was heavily pushed by Redhat, a US company. After Snowden, it has become clear that US IT corps have lots of incentives to play nice with the NSA and those who refuse will be bullied. A rationally acting company (or one that wants the juicy government contracts) will play ball as long as it's guaranteed the public will never know.
            • Several large FOSS distros went ahead with the conversion to SystemD despite heavy internal resistance. In the case of Debian, my impression was that their democratic process had been subverted by agents of some external agenda. Especially in the early days of SystemD, there weren't compelling technical reasons to prefer it over SysV init. In fact it was a buggy mess causing lots of people lots of headaches, yet those distros pushed it on their users anyway. It was a political decision, it's just not clear whose policy it was.
            • Runs as PID 1 and gets its grubby fingers on all critical system components, feature creep nonwithstandng, while being a huge fucking mess of a code base. It would be easy to put several backdoors/exploitable bugs in there, using underhanded code and plausibly claim ignorance if one were discovered.
            • The Linux kernel, the only other system component with the same potential for subverting security, is well-audited and often has distro-specific patches - while SystemD is the same code on every distro and to my knowledge has never been audited by trusted third parties.
            • Linux by design has a much smaller attack surface than Windows - which for an organization like the NSA may have become an increasingly prevalent showstopper with Linux dominance in the server segment and rising numbers of desktop users. The NSA itself contributed SELinux which can mitigate even successful exploitation of a system. Maybe Linux was too secure. If that was the case, then putting some zero days of their own in every distro is just the sort of evil genius plan I'd expect from the NSA. SystemD would be the perfect vehicle. After having seen the Snowden docs and their approach to targeting individual users for exploitation - subverting the very infrastructure of the whole internet - subverting some FLOSS hippie communes and selling them on a piece of FLOSS software with at least some merits looks like the easier task.

            Call me a conspiracy theorist. But from how things stand, I'll default to assuming that SystemD is an NSA trojan - until proven otherwise.

          • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:10PM

            by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:10PM (#714366)

            I've never had a problem with systemd, I've been using it without headaches for years on personal Linux desktops and hundreds of work servers. But I was upset by the changes in GNOME 3, and Ubuntu's Unity desktop so I understand your general class of frustration. (I find Unity and GNOME 3 acceptable now... after years of adjustments that came because of user screams of anguish and jumps to other desktops.)

            I think the long term solution to these kinds of problems is to try to get as many people as possible using open source. Maybe 0.0001% to 0.1% of users will become contributors, and if we have 3 billion users then that's enough contributors that any project anyone could possibly care about will have a ton of supporters. Then Linux can have fifty well-engineered, actively maintained init systems and desktop environments and we can all choose awesome things without being forced to go with a handful of defaults or write our own.

        • (Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday July 29 2018, @09:40PM

          by Bot (3902) on Sunday July 29 2018, @09:40PM (#714471) Journal

          let me explain.

          Linux is FOSS, if I don't want to run systemd, I can. It will be difficult? sure.

          Windows pushes the update, you either consume it or eventually be locked out by compromises or incompatibility.

          --
          Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:48PM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:48PM (#714013)

      is just a headache.

      If you're talking about the majority of people, the conversation and thought process ends here.

      They don't care why or how, all they care about is what they have to do to get paid and 6 weeks of vacation with health benefits. If they have to do more, or especially think more, that's bad and an excuse for whining and making trouble for their supervisors - eventually it bubbles up high enough and somebody gets tired of the whining and tries to settle it down.

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @12:55PM (25 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @12:55PM (#713977)

    It should be outright illegal for governments to use proprietary software. It is extremely dangerous for governments to not be able to control or even understand their own computing, or for them to be reliant on corporations.

    In general, the fact that the vast majority of computers are essentially black boxes that users ultimately do not control is very worrying to anyone with even a sliver of knowledge about technology. The importance of usability and convenience pale in comparison to the importance of freedom, independence, and education. So, just making Free Software more convenient would not fix the fundamental issue, which is that people need to care about freedom above all else. That's what many "open source" advocates miss.

    • (Score: 3, Funny) by Bot on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:12PM (4 children)

      by Bot (3902) on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:12PM (#714003) Journal

      Hello Richard, long time no see, how's the st. ignucius halo doing?

      Modded you insightful all the same.

      --
      Account abandoned.
      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:43PM (3 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:43PM (#714090) Journal

        He's correct, even if you don't like it. We all know how *you* work (might makes right), but in the real world, people who have a better grasp of human nature than, for example, the average whelk does of Cantorian transfinite sets, understand these things.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 2) by leftover on Saturday July 28 2018, @09:12PM (1 child)

          by leftover (2448) on Saturday July 28 2018, @09:12PM (#714107)

          AH you made me splurt wine into my keyboard again. But thank you, I will reuse that phrase when appropriate.

          --
          Bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated.
          • (Score: 4, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday July 29 2018, @02:19AM

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday July 29 2018, @02:19AM (#714189) Journal

            You weren't doing mathematical analysis in R or anything while imbibing, were you? Alcohol and calculus are a deadly mixture: don't drink and derive!

            --
            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday July 31 2018, @08:46PM

          by Bot (3902) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @08:46PM (#715385) Journal

          > you don't like it.
          wew lad-y, now I am also pro closed source and 'right "fool" for the job'? one of these days you're gonna paint me as a right wing misogynist, I'm sure.

          --
          Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:57PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:57PM (#714016)

      And what true believers miss is that most people and institutions think of IT as an annoying distraction that should be minimized. If Windows seems less distracting they will use it. With how sh*tty a lot of software is, it's hard to criticize that attitude.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:30PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:30PM (#714025)

        And what true believers miss is that most people and institutions think of IT as an annoying distraction that should be minimized.

        Wrong. We don't miss that. Rather, Free Software advocates recognize the problem and are trying to fix that via education. It's a nearly impossible task, but that doesn't mean we should give up.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @07:10PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @07:10PM (#714058)

          Yeah tell me about minimizing distraction. I recall meddling with windows. By the time one win7 station had recognized the network printer I had installed aptosid on the remaining 5 machines.

        • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Saturday July 28 2018, @07:39PM

          by maxwell demon (1608) on Saturday July 28 2018, @07:39PM (#714071) Journal

          Rather, Free Software advocates recognize the problem and are trying to fix that via education.

          Which most people only see as yet more annoying distraction to get rid of.

          --
          The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    • (Score: 2, Flamebait) by snufu on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:24PM (9 children)

      by snufu (5855) on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:24PM (#714086)

      Funny how Soylent Libertarian champions free market fundamentalism as the solution to everything...until another FOSS option gets dumped on its ass for a superior product. Than its all "Unite comrades, we must force FOSS on the proletariat by government fiat. For their own good."

      • (Score: 2, Offtopic) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:45PM

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:45PM (#714092) Journal

        No, no, clearly the problem here is a Violently Imposed Monopoly (TM). I mean hell it's even the name of the default editor, Vim! Lower Saxony ought to enter a series of voluntary contracts, because no one ever got screwed dealing with an entity with a hell of a lot more power, money, and legal influence on a contractural basis, as Any Fule Noe.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @04:30AM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @04:30AM (#714227)

        Decent troll, would read again. You had me at "superior product" :D

        • (Score: 2) by snufu on Sunday July 29 2018, @09:14AM (3 children)

          by snufu (5855) on Sunday July 29 2018, @09:14AM (#714269)

          Free market don't lie.

          • (Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Sunday July 29 2018, @11:07AM (2 children)

            by fido_dogstoyevsky (131) <axehandleNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday July 29 2018, @11:07AM (#714300)

            Free market don't lie.

            If only we HAD a free* market...

            --
            It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
            • (Score: 2) by snufu on Sunday July 29 2018, @10:07PM (1 child)

              by snufu (5855) on Sunday July 29 2018, @10:07PM (#714476)

              What is preventing FOSS from competing in this space? FOSS has been tested time and again by end users and found lacking. They have spoken with their wallet.

              • (Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Tuesday July 31 2018, @07:59AM

                by fido_dogstoyevsky (131) <axehandleNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday July 31 2018, @07:59AM (#715108)

                What is preventing FOSS from competing in this space?

                Megabucks of advertising/propaganda saying FOSS is a Bad Thing for one. More megabucks pushing sellers into forced bundling of software with hardware for another.

                FOSS Proprietary software has been tested time and again by end users and found lacking. They have spoken with their wallet.

                --
                It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
      • (Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday July 29 2018, @09:44PM (2 children)

        by Bot (3902) on Sunday July 29 2018, @09:44PM (#714472) Journal

        I am a free market fundamentalist. The market in which Microsoft operates is not free. If it were free the best product for the price would win.

        BTW I am sure by now some crooks have begun pushing their FOSS based solutions with the mere intent of having the taxpayer shell out money for their services. This is not a matter of FOSS vs. proprietary. This is corruption.

        --
        Account abandoned.
        • (Score: 2) by snufu on Sunday July 29 2018, @10:00PM (1 child)

          by snufu (5855) on Sunday July 29 2018, @10:00PM (#714475)

          All markets are free...except the ones I deem not free. Those markets should be regulated and proscribed by law.
          Similarly all speech is free...except the speech I deem hate. That speech should proscribed by law.

          • (Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday July 31 2018, @08:53PM

            by Bot (3902) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @08:53PM (#715388) Journal

            me: If in a mixture of ice cubes and water, the cubes do not rise to the top, then they are not floating freely.
            you interpret it as: all mixtures feature ice on top, except for the ones i don't like
            funny meatbag.

            --
            Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 1) by exaeta on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:44PM (1 child)

      by exaeta (6957) on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:44PM (#714146) Homepage Journal

      That's not how it works.

      Here's what governments think:

      "We can trust Microsoft because they know if we catch them doing anything bad we will sick our army of lawyers on them."

      Here's how Microsoft thinks:

      "How much can we abuse our users before the government or some rich guy sends an army of lawyers at us?"

      --
      The Government is a Bird
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @02:03PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @02:03PM (#714351)

        Here's what governments think:

        Well, those governments are wrong, because Microsoft is already doing plenty of bad things. Microsoft makes proprietary software. It makes proprietary data formats to lock users into their proprietary software. It spies on users. It disables features that allow the user to disable certain aspects of the spying. And so on.

        If those governments think they're going to send an army of lawyers in Microsoft's direction if it does anything bad, they're not doing a very good job of it.

    • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:22PM (2 children)

      by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:22PM (#714369)

      When people buy a toaster, a pair of pants, a car, or a radio concerns about freedom and privacy don't cross their minds. So as much as it hurts us all that they don't think about freedom when buying computers, it's not really a surprise.

      And convenience is every bit as important as freedom. I'm an FSF member, but usability is a critical component to this that the FSF doesn't weigh as heavily as it deserves. If I give someone a free software computer that doesn't boot because of missing drivers, I might as well have told them they can run all the programs they want on a box of bricks. The Free Software Foundation is often like a libertarian telling the starving homeless "you are free to buy all the food you could possible want". They have the freedom, but not the capability and without the capability the freedom is worthless.

      I don't have the answer. But we have two problems to solve and both are equally important: 1. educating the world that free software is critical and 2. making free software that can meet all of the world's uses, not just piles of source code and bits you need fifteen years of IT tinkering experience or formal education to run.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @06:53PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @06:53PM (#714423)

        FLOSS devs in particular reek of a particular brand of elitism. Internalized, unreflected identification with Dilbert tropes seems to be a common character trait among FLOSS devs, which gives insight into their perspective on perceived status and rank within a software project. I can get behind hating on the PHB manager types that add nothing to the product but deciding when everyone has to do mandatory crunchtime/sprints/.

        But these dev types often look also down on every software specialist working in a non-coding position. In particular, pixel pushers doing interface/UX design seem to be regarded as redundant, overpaid bullshit-jobbers, dead weight - after all, a real programmer can easily create any desired UI by drawing geometric shapes by coordinates. Right?

        • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Tuesday July 31 2018, @11:45AM

          by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Tuesday July 31 2018, @11:45AM (#715143)

          I would adjust your statement to say "some" or at most "many" FLOSS devs have the elitism you describe. I've run into many FLOSS devs that are fantastic people and have no such elitism or contempt for others. But the jackasses give the rest a bad name, and we need to (prepare for the flames) enforce more of some kind of code of conduct.

          I barely contribute anything to FOSS but I'm a software developer. I don't have any contempt for UI specialists, work in that area is every bit as hard as work elsewhere. I just find it less interesting personally than solving data-oriented problems. Yes, many UI experts can't do my job - but neither can I do theirs.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @05:11PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @05:11PM (#714818)

      yes. governments paying for proprietary software with tax payer funds is sedition. hang everyone who tries to do this. if a government can't use FOSS, then it can't offer that "service" digitally.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @06:55PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @06:55PM (#714055)

    I wonder if Microsoft partner Accenture advised them to do this like they did in Munich.