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Another German state plans switch back from Linux to Windows
The German state of Lower Saxony plans to follow Munich's example, and migrate a reported 13,000 users from Linux back to Windows.
Apparently undaunted by the cost of the Munich switch (which we reported in January could be as much as €100m), Lower Saxony is considering making the change in its tax office. The state seems to expect a much cheaper transition, with Heise (in German here) reporting the first-year budget is €5.9m, and another €7m further out.
The tax office argues its decision is driven by compatibility: field workers and teleworkers overwhelmingly use Windows, while the OpenSUSE variants are installed on its office workstations. The office workstations are also ageing and due for replacement, something that helped open the door for Windows.
Related: Linux Champion Munich Takes Decisive Step Towards Returning to Windows
Munich Switching From Linux to Windows 10
German Documentary on Relations Between Microsoft and Public Administration Now Available in English
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @01:09PM (24 children)
People like what they know.
I have worked at banks. They live and breath excel. All of the banks do this. Thousands and thousands of one off excel spreadsheets and workbooks. Hundreds of thousands of the things. The software the banks are writing is trying to get away from everyone reinventing the same spreadsheets over and over. You sit in the meetings to get exactly what they do. They start listing off the 'must have' features. Every time, "you just reinvented excel". Could they use a open source version of it like calc? Sure. Right up until it does not work with their spreadsheet, or becomes a pain in the ass to use. Then it is 'screw this' give me excel.
You see you are approaching open source in the wrong way. They USERS will demand what they need. Right now that demand is not open source desktop programs. You can bully them but they are going to go with what they know and just work around you. You pretend you can just drop it in front of these people and they will be cool with it. No they will not be. Eventually some of them will get to be 'in charge'. Guess what? Your 'free system' is out the window and a 'waste of time'. You need to make the user want and *need* it. It has to be *obvious* that it is better. "free" does not get the job done. The end users *do* *not* *care*. They just want to get shit done and quickly. They do not worry about cost. As they do not even pay for it in the first place. If someone offers most people a free copy of office or a free copy of open office. Most will just take the copy of office and be done with it. That is what you are 'competing' against. Free does not cut it. Better does. It is why MS has basically been tossed out of the data centers. Their software is not nearly as good as the free stuff at this point. The opposite is also true in the desktop world. Android is what vendor lock in looks like with linux.
(Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Saturday July 28 2018, @01:46PM
actually, micro$oft does make an android version of their Word etc.. suite. It came on my Samsung S3.
I'll bet there are some limitations programmed in, but it shows the world has changed *a bit*.
(Score: 4, Informative) by AthanasiusKircher on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:43PM (14 children)
Completely agree with most points. Although..
Which is a solid argument for open-source alternatives in any rational world. Companies like Microsoft are notorious for making major changes to their OS and applications, often which break compatibility (especially if you get a couple versions behind). And things like UI change radically (e.g., the Office ribbon in 2007, the various redesigns of Windows in the past decade+).
Users of proprietary software are generally just told to "suck it up" and deal with constant changes that are out of their control. If a business fails to upgrade for a while, eventually the old version will be deprecated and they're stuck with a massive sudden upgrade or paying for special support.
Popular open-source is a lot different. Backwards compatibility and constancy in UI choices is often highly prized -- and if significant changes are made, often there's an option to configure it like the older version. If not, and it was a popular piece of software, someone's going to fork it and maintain something like the old version for a while. If a company/government needed something like that maintained indefinitely, it would certainly be cheaper than paying for proprietary licenses over the years and constantly training workers on capricious proprietary "upgrades" or paying a proprietary company to maintain support for a deprecated version.
As noted, dealing with fickle proprietary support and changes you can't control is arguably a bigger "waste of time" by any rational analysis.
The real problem is just market share. It's really that simple. MS Office is the most common suite, so it's the expectation, even with its many faults and inconstancy. Until that expectation changes, companies and governments will continue shell out lots of money and put up with MS BS for no good reason other than "it's the industry standard."
(Score: 3, Touché) by leftover on Saturday July 28 2018, @02:59PM (4 children)
... "in any rational world"
Let me know if someone ever finds any such world.
Bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Saturday July 28 2018, @03:16PM (3 children)
Vulcan? Although some of their traditions and rituals seem a little irrational.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:02PM (2 children)
Vulcans are almost as much comic book material as superheroes: overly simplified characters with limited dimensions of difference from everyday people.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:41PM (1 child)
*Gasps!* Sacrelige! Sacrelige! Out, you heretic! Take it back I say! ;)
Only when they're half human...
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:30PM
Oh, when they're half human they're at least twice as complex.
Full Vulcans are just highly repressed with explosive outlets like PonFarr... when they're half human they struggle with trying to balance that repression with human feeling, in a shallowly written kind of way.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Gaaark on Saturday July 28 2018, @04:19PM (7 children)
What i think governments should be looking to is backward compatibility, which MS is HIGHLY against:
they should push that EVERY document ever created is easily opened by ANY version of MS Office, 365, word, etc at ANY time, therefore eliminating the problem of older documents not being viewable unless they happen to have an old copy of Office, etc laying around or on an old PC.
THAT WAY, libreoffice, etc, would have a chance at compatibility and giving the user a BETTER experience than Office: WAY too much time is spent trying to keep libreoffice compatible with MS office.
Push for ANY DOCUMENT AT ANY TIME.
We need politicians that are SMART and not in the pockets of big business... until we have that, there is almost no chance.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 5, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Sunday July 29 2018, @12:44AM (6 children)
What I suspect is that the gp is FUD and propaganda written by M$ shills, and lots of people here fell for it. A key phrase I've often seen from M$ shills is "they just want to get shit done", as if it's a given that LibreOffice can't possibly match M$ Office on that squishy measure. They even cunningly concede that Linux beats Windows in the server room, making all their sly innuendos favoring M$ Office over LibreOffice sound more legit.
When it comes to compatibility and open and standard file formats, and assurance that work done decades ago can still be read without having to dig out an ancient copy of M$ Office including an equally ancient version of Windows that it will run on, plus either matching ancient hardware or an emulator, LibreOffice beats the stuffings out of M$ Office.
If the gp was indeed written by M$ shills, then SoylentNews may take it as a mark of progress, of sorts, that the shills think this news site is worth the effort. Congratulations, I guess?
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday July 29 2018, @02:00AM (5 children)
Who exactly are you calling a "shill"? I'm GP here relative to your post, and I argued strongly in favor of open source.
And no, I sincerely doubt there are "shills" here. Believe it or not, some people actually like Microsoft or prefer Office. For all sorts of reasons. It's only in very unusual enclaves like this site that you don't tend to find large numbers of people saying "Office just works for my needs," etc.
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Sunday July 29 2018, @08:10AM (2 children)
Ah, sorry, meant the ggp-- the AC post with "get shit done" in it.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday July 29 2018, @05:34PM (1 child)
No prob. I was just confused because I really didn't read the GGP post you were referring to as particularly pro-MS. It was just an analysis of why MS is dominant, not saying it was better. (My take anyway.)
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Monday July 30 2018, @12:25AM
Yes, it's a very cunning bit of propaganda that on the surface and with a quick read doesn't seem all that pro-M$. Take a closer look though.
This one is a gem: "Could they use a open source version of it like calc? Sure. Right up until it does not work with their spreadsheet, or becomes a pain in the ass to use. Then it is 'screw this' give me excel." Nice implication there that calc has problems that are so severe it can't be fixed or worked with but must be abandoned-- it's a great example of M$ FUD-- while Excel just works and is easy to use, and doesn't have plenty of problems of its own.
And then there is this one: "Free does not cut it. Better does". Free and better can't possibly apply to the same thing? They're subtly playing the readers, suckering them into feeling that "you get what you pay for" is true.
Note also that despite being an AC, it was modded up to a 4. I certainly would expect shills to have sock puppet accounts handy for some fake modding.
Oh, and you doubt that shills would try astroturfing on SoylentNews? That the community here is too knowledgeable to be fooled? They're not gunning for the members, though if any regulars fall for it, they won't feel like that's a waste. They're really trying to sway less knowledgeable, less tech oriented people, either those who visit occasionally and never post but just lurk, or those who might stumble upon this discussion, perhaps through a search.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:51PM (1 child)
I wouldnt doubt there are are shills if i were you. Massive corporations can EASILY afford some schmuck who goes around shit posting in their favor. There are businesses built on managing just such "grass roots" PR. If i was MS i would 100% be doing so.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday July 29 2018, @05:31PM
Here?? You'd be wasting your time paying someone to shill HERE?? For heaven's sake, why? The vast majority of users here seem pro-open source and anti-MS. You're not going to g to convince anyone here. The best you can do is troll.
Trolls here, yes. Obviously. Shills for MS? Highly doubt it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:28PM
You make it sound like linux breaks compatibility less! yeah, no
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday July 28 2018, @05:29PM (2 children)
Excel is marginally better than Libre Office. That said, I almost never use Excel. Libre will read and write all the office files except technology's biggest time waster, PowerPoint. IMO PowerPoint should have never been written!
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:35PM (1 child)
I love linux. But excel is about 5 times better than libreoffice calc. And crashes less. A microsoft product crashing less than open source? Something is very wrong with libreoffice. and dont get me started on ease of use!
(Score: 2) by gawdonblue on Sunday July 29 2018, @01:38AM
I use both - Excel at work with VBA shite and Calc for my own stuff. Which one crashes less? I haven't had either crash for many years but I have had Excel lock up with VBA issues or (years ago) with too many rows. Which is easier to use? For me it's Calc, mostly because I'm still not used to the ribbon (read "don't like").
But do tell us about your crashes, and also please explain your ease of use issues. I've always used the claim "5 times better" in an ironic sense when dismissing some random claim by a snake-oil salesman, but in your case I'm hoping for genuine enlightenment from someone who loves linux!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @06:58PM
>They just want to get shit done and quickly.
every fucking time i couldn't get shit done quickly, it was because of a closed source OS, proprietary data format, and platform incompatibility.
Presentation looks like shit? you need Calibri font. Oh but you cannot get it, it's proprietary. Sorry!!! No you cannot hook up your PC, we only have VGA. Export in pdf, pdf to bitmap and so on.
You are describing the "I know windows, have too many stuff hostage of windows". Which BTW is kind of an obsolete situation from what I see around. Fine, let closed source decide when you WILL be forced to change. Because it will happen. There is no money to be done otherwise.
tldr people who don't know what they want should stop screeching about it.
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Saturday July 28 2018, @08:59PM (3 children)
Well, "open source" just means "open source". What you really meant in your post was "open source capable of supplanting proprietary software by mass end user choice alone".
With respect to your Excel example, I think the situation goes even further than you state. I work with people that won't use Excel in a browser with Office 365. They want the Excel desktop experience they know, and even an equivalent product from Microsoft - let alone a third party open source alternative - with all of the same features is unacceptable just because a few buttons were moved or renamed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 28 2018, @11:32PM (2 children)
Having tried to use libre office calc... it's shit.
If I can't even find the buttons there's a problem.
I say this as a Linux user and lover who has been using Linux as my system for around 7 years, libre/openoffice is shit. I have to learn random bits of latex to get anything done (in LyX), calc crashes every 5 seconds, etc. That's not going to fly for non-techies.
(Score: 3, Touché) by maxwell demon on Sunday July 29 2018, @07:21AM
I don't believe you.
First, LyX is not part of either OpenOffice or LibreOffice. Second, LyX is a LaTeX front end, what did you expect?
I've never had calc crash on me once. Now I'm not a heavy user of it, but if it were really as bad as you describe, I should have had a few thousand crashes by now.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:02PM
I haven't used LibreOffice Calc for anything extra complicated, but for the stuff I thrown at it, it's been rock solid. I used it with company spreadsheets because I was too lazy to install Office for years.