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posted by martyb on Sunday July 29 2018, @07:02AM   Printer-friendly
from the all-work-and-no-pay-makes-Jack-a-litigious-boy dept.

Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following (paywalled) story:

July 26, 2018

Starbucks Corp. must pay employees for off-the-clock work such as closing and locking stores, the California Supreme Court ruled on Thursday in a decision that could have broad implications for companies that employ workers paid by the hour across the state.

The decision is a departure from a federal standard that gives employers greater leeway to deny workers’ compensation for short tasks, such as putting on a uniform, that are performed before they clock in or after they clock out.

More details are available from pbs.org:

The ruling came in a lawsuit by a Starbucks employee, Douglas Troester, who argued that he was entitled to be paid for the time he spent closing the store after he had clocked out.

Troester said he activated the store alarm, locked the front door and walked co-workers to their cars — tasks that required him to work for four to 10 additional minutes a day.

An attorney for Starbucks referred comment to the company. Starbucks did not immediately have comment.

A U.S. District Court rejected Troester’s lawsuit on the grounds that the time he spent on those tasks was minimal. But the California Supreme Court said a few extra minutes of work each day could “add up.”

Troester was seeking payment for 12 hours and 50 minutes of work over a 17-month period. At $8 an hour, that amounts to $102.67, the California Supreme Court said.

“That is enough to pay a utility bill, buy a week of groceries, or cover a month of bus fares,” Associate Justice Goodwin Liu wrote. “What Starbucks calls ‘de minimis’ is not de minimis at all to many ordinary people who work for hourly wages.”

-- submitted from IRC


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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday July 29 2018, @12:48PM (17 children)

    Timing, somewhat, luck, no. It doesn't take any luck at all to get out of poverty. It takes knowing how and being willing to do it. That's all. Most of the people living in poverty fail on the first count but some fail on the second and cannot be helped.

    And you really need to drop some of that envy and greed. They're not part of the seven deadly sins without reason.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Sunday July 29 2018, @02:13PM (9 children)

    by bzipitidoo (4388) on Sunday July 29 2018, @02:13PM (#714352) Journal

    There's more requirements than that. The game must be fair and rules must be enforced. Ever had an employer who cheated you of your pay? Offered you a job on a 1099 basis only, so they could dodge all the rules concerning wages, such as overtime pay? But they still want to have the wage rules that benefit them. They agree to pay you peanuts, and you take it because you don't have several job offers to think about, you have only the one and that's because jobs are hard to get. And then they cheat on even that. Now that's greed. They've already lowballed you, and then they use unethical ways to chisel you further. Further, it could be entirely legal, thanks to them having bribed lawmakers for favorable legislation. A case in point is the exception to the minimum wage that restaurants enjoy, because waitstaff supposedly gets lots in tips.

    Yeah, yeah, you could sue. Lot of problems with that. Lawsuits are costly and time consuming, and the odds of winning what would seem to be even a slam dunk case are way less than 100%. Then, even if you win, collecting is highly uncertain. The employer has ways to evade a settlement, such as going through a bankruptcy, and dragging out the case even longer through appeal after appeal to name just 2.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:30PM (8 children)

      Untrue. You will never find fairness in life. Fairness is entirely subjective; one person's idea of it will rarely be the same as another.

      Which is entirely beside the point. It's not about fairness, it's about what is and how you deal with that. If you want to crusade against how things are, do that in your spare time after you've got a roof over your head and food on the table.

      You are never, ever going to get out of poverty working shit jobs that a monkey can do. It's not going to happen. Not ever. Knowing this is the first and most important step to getting out of poverty. The only way you are going to get out of poverty is to pick a job that pays enough in your area and has openings in your area and acquire the skills for that job. This has always and will always be true, a few half-trained monkeys that could use a good firing in union shops aside.

      What you think a job should pay is entirely irrelevant. You're not the one doing the paying. So, you have to deal with the facts as they stand. If carpentry pays shit in your area, don't pick carpentry as your career path. If you do, knowing it pays shit in your area, you have no right to bitch.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Sunday July 29 2018, @04:49PM (7 children)

        by bzipitidoo (4388) on Sunday July 29 2018, @04:49PM (#714402) Journal

        > Untrue. You will never find fairness in life.

        To the contrary. Yeah, we know the expression "life isn't fair". That's too black and white. Life will never be 100% fair, but there is a lot of fairness in the world. That's what the entire justice system is supposed to be about. It's the cynics and sociopaths who don't believe it, in part because it suits them not to. You don't need fairness when you're strong enough to just take what you want. Fairness is a hindrance and a check on the desires of the powerful. It's a fine excuse when they've just screwed someone over and are getting away with it.

        > Fairness is entirely subjective

        No. That's a gaslighting kind of attitude. You saying people can't agree on what is fair? Can't judge? That the method of fairly diving a cake between 2 people (1st person makes the cut, 2nd person chooses who gets which slice) doesn't work or isn't really fair according to some impossibly high standard of fairness?

        > It's not about fairness, it's about what is and how you deal with that

        It is totally about fairness. That's what civil cases are about. Yeah, how do you deal with it when someone cheats you, or someone else? Do nothing because you feel the system is hopelessly corrupted and you have no chance? Now that's an attitude for which my sympathies are limited. That's like complaining about your elected representatives when you didn't even try to vote. The opposite extreme, arm yourself to the teeth and shoot everyone you can, is an approach I have no sympathy with at all, with the exception of the purpose of the 2nd amendment, the possibility of armed rebellion to keep government in check, so that they won't dare try to be too blatant and extreme in their unfairness. You understand that, I believe.

        In any case, there will be times when you are unable to fight or even discern that you are being cheated. For instance, if you've just been severely injured and are dazed, confused, or even unconscious. Yet we are batshit nuts enough to expect healthcare to function like a market when one of the parties to the bargaining could be severely incapacitated and unable to bargain.

        > only way you are going to get out of poverty is to pick a job

        Pick? Except that it's been a total employer's market for most of the time over the past several decades.

        > What you think a job should pay is entirely irrelevant.

        Ahh, you admit it. Job candidates have no bargaining power at all. Otherwise, what they think a job should pay would be relevant.

        • (Score: 4, Troll) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday July 29 2018, @07:37PM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday July 29 2018, @07:37PM (#714433) Journal

          The thing to remember about Uzzard is his position reduces down to precisely the same one as Mr. Vim's; he just cloaks it in a lot of bullshit bravado and coarse humor.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @03:19AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30 2018, @03:19AM (#714589)

          You got it all ass-backwards. Fairness is a viral concept, used by the powerful to gimp the competiton, i.e. you. It's been implanted into societies by the vehicles of at first religion, then later by codified laws. Ever notice how laws don't seem to apply to those of wealth and power? This is by design.

          You believe in your fairytales, ignorance is bliss.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday July 30 2018, @03:24AM (4 children)

          Sigh. Look, I get you want to crusade against all the evils of the world but talking like that should be a priority over making a living is absurd. I'm here trying to explain that people need to forget that bullshit and work on getting themselves enough out of the red that they have the luxury of free time to be pissed off in.

          Now, could you please stop reading what you want to argue against into my words instead of taking them as they're intended? That's a little bitch move.

          Example:

          Pick? Except that it's been a total employer's market for most of the time over the past several decades.

          Either you're deliberately misunderstanding me or you're fucking stupid. Employers don't do a single damned thing to keep people from picking whatever profession they feel like going into and you fucking well know it.

          The rest of it's equally bullshit for the same reason and has been ignored.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Monday July 30 2018, @11:38AM (3 children)

            by bzipitidoo (4388) on Monday July 30 2018, @11:38AM (#714677) Journal

            > Employers don't do a single damned thing to keep people from picking whatever profession they feel like

            Oh come on. Do you really believe that? At the least, the market speaks. Engineering pays better, and everyone knows that. Surely you realize students are strongly influenced by that? I've seen plenty of engineering students who hate engineering but struggle to do it anyway, for the money.

            Market rates is hardly all they do. Employers are constantly complaining that schools don't teach the skills that they need in employees. In exchange for donations, they ask universities to jump through hoops that they believe will reduce their own college educated employee expenses, in particular, training. The pushing they do threatens to pervert college into mere vocational training. Thanks in part to that, we get travesties of education such as biology graduates who believe in Intelligent Design. Employers don't just cry for more STEM, they manipulate everyone to get more STEM at the lowest rate they can. H1B, for instance. It sure doesn't start at the college level either, witness all this noise about elevating programming to a fundamental skill that should be taught in elementary.

            > talking like that should be a priority over making a living is absurd.

            Many engineers wish we could focus entirely on the technical matters that we love. But no one can safely ignore evils of the world. They have great impact on the ability to make a living.

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday July 30 2018, @02:35PM (2 children)

              Oh, I get it... You're wanting people to be able to pick whatever career path they like without consequences. See, I never said anything like that was true or gave advice implying it was true though. I was in fact advising them to not pick poorly paying careers if they did not want to be paid poorly. You'd think an engineer could figure out something so basic.

              The pushing they do threatens to pervert college into mere vocational training.

              It damned well needs to be. I dunno about you but a lot of people are pissed the fuck off that they went a hundred grand or more into debt because everyone told them college would land them an white collar job that they didn't have to do much actual work in and now they're having to sling coffee at Starbucks to keep from starving.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Monday July 30 2018, @06:01PM (1 child)

                by bzipitidoo (4388) on Monday July 30 2018, @06:01PM (#714852) Journal

                >> The pushing they do threatens to pervert college into mere vocational training.

                > It damned well needs to be

                No, and that so many people could think otherwise points up one of the biggest failures of current education. Students study all kinds of science all through K-12, and yet many totally miss the boat about the foundations of science. A large part of that is the fault of educators, for not emphasizing it enough. They have a lamentable tendency to gloss over these crucial foundational understandings, to dive directly into the gory details in the hopes that if the students will eventually figure out the big picture themselves. Often, those hopes are in vain.

                > everyone told them college would land them an white collar job

                The point is a better life. A good job is only one part of that puzzle. There's an infinite amount of bullshit in the universe, and education is crucial for developing the critical thinking skills and habits necessary to sort through it. It's more, much more, than just memorizing a bunch of facts. One of the saddest things to see is ignorant people screwing up their lives or worse, their children's lives, out of fear of nonsense. For instance, the anti-vaxxers who put their children through horrible childhood diseases, perhaps scarring them for life, or even killing them, because they've stuffed themselves full of quackery and conspiracy nonsense over vaccines. Some people still go for palm readings and seances, sort of believe in ghosts, and other superstitious nonsense. There's also prejudice. Education, especially college education, can really open eyes, get young people out of the echo chambers, where they can see for themselves that the world is a more diverse and less vicious and scary place than they were taught.

                Education can be one of the most rewarding and fun things to do, when free of the pressure to pass tests and earn grades.

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday July 30 2018, @06:42PM

                  ...education is crucial for developing the critical thinking skills and habits necessary to sort through it.

                  No, it's not. I give you our current higher education system that is turning out indoctrinated little sexist, racist, and otherwise biggoted drones incapable of the tiniest amount of thought that goes against the approved narrative en masse while the welders, electricians, and plumbers are calling bullshit. Either education is not in fact the key or our colleges are doing the opposite of educating.

                  Education can be one of the most rewarding and fun things to do, when free of the pressure to pass tests and earn grades.

                  I agree but you need a formal setting and a six digit debt right out of highschool like tanks need training wheels. If college cannot give you much better odds at a decent living (It doesn't. The improvement is small and decreasing.), it is a luxury and it's cocktacularly stupid to acquire six digits of debt for a luxury unless you already make seven digits or more a year.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by VLM on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:45PM

    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 29 2018, @03:45PM (#714379)

    luck, no

    My decades of experience with "luck" indicate lazy people see the result of hundreds if not thousands of hours of very hard work, and call it "luck".

    Sure, its just "luck" that my biceps are bigger than your neck, or I got that sweet EE job, or that I can write software. To a lazy person everything is "luck" and suspiciously they're never personally to blame for not having any of it. Usually comes with some side dishes of entitlement and disparagement of those who put in the hours. I mean, you'd almost think "luck" comes from thinking hard, sweat, and invested time...

    In recent years its slowly turning to "privilege". Yeah it was a "privilege" to study diff eqs all night while the wymens studies affirmative action majors partied, and now its "privilege" once again that I now make like ten times their income. Lazy people gotta be lazy... Well, I gotta hire someone to pour my coffee at Starbucks, may as well be a whiner without any of that mysterious "luck".

    There was an old scif fi book series with an obscure plot line along the lines of dog whistling eugenics by race WRT breeding people for "luck" aka "whiteness but I don't want to get attacked for racism". There is SOME truth that to some extent a winning combo of the precise ratios of thinking, sweating, and patience is a very white privilege, and "diversity as a concept of holiness" is mostly about sabotaging attempts at min-max optimizing that ratio. See for example, successful blacks being attacked mostly by other left wing blacks for "acting white".

  • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Monday July 30 2018, @12:40AM (5 children)

    by Whoever (4524) on Monday July 30 2018, @12:40AM (#714542) Journal

    Timing, somewhat, luck, no. It doesn't take any luck at all to get out of poverty. It takes knowing how and being willing to do it.

    Of course luck comes into it. The biggest factor in how successful you will be in life is which family you are born into. Upward mobility in the USA is declining. [phys.org]

    If you are born into a poor family, you are unlikely to have the opportunity to learn the skills required to pull yourself out of poverty. Even if you do get an education, you will probably have huge student loan debt that will be a lifelong drag on your prospects. If you are born into a wealthy family, you are more likely to be able to afford to take risks to build businesses.

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday July 30 2018, @03:27AM (4 children)

      That's not luck, that's a conscious choice your parents made.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 3, Touché) by Whoever on Monday July 30 2018, @03:35AM (3 children)

        by Whoever (4524) on Monday July 30 2018, @03:35AM (#714596) Journal

        Those parents chose to be born into poverty? Wow! I didn't know it was possible to choose your parents.

        Nevertheless, that doesn't refute my point.

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday July 30 2018, @03:50AM (2 children)

          Your parents chose to have you. The choice was not yours but neither was it luck.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Whoever on Monday July 30 2018, @05:14AM (1 child)

            by Whoever (4524) on Monday July 30 2018, @05:14AM (#714628) Journal

            Are you dense or something? I guess we know the answer.....

            Something over which you have no choice determines your likely success in life and you claim that this isn't a matter of luck? We are looking at this from the child's perspective, not the parents'.

            Even for the parents, these issues are multi-generational. Donald Trump Jr. hasn't shown that he could have achieved his wealthy status without the help of his father, and that also goes for Donald Trump Sr..

            I guess I should be glad that you acknowledge that having wealthy (or at least middle class) parents gives someone a big advantage in life and that success in life take more than hard work.

            • (Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday July 30 2018, @05:58AM

              Something over which you have no choice determines your likely success in life and you claim that this isn't a matter of luck?

              Do you know what luck even is? Luck is chance. Something being done by design precludes it being chance. If your parents made a choice to have a child it is not luck that said child shares their financial situation.

              We are looking at this from the child's perspective, not the parents'.

              No, we are not. We are looking at the relevant facts. There is zero chance in who children are born to. They are always born to their parents. If your parents had decided not to have children, you do not go back in line to get dished out to some other couple.

              Even for the parents, these issues are multi-generational.

              What has that got to do with anything? Chaining non-luck events together does not make them spontaneously become luck events.

              I guess I should be glad that you acknowledge that having wealthy (or at least middle class) parents gives someone a big advantage in life

              On average, yeah. So what? It's not an unearned advantage. The parents earned it and gifted it to their child.

              and that success in life take more than hard work.

              Yeah, I never said anything remotely like that. You have no need whatsoever of rich parents to succeed in life. It makes things a bit easier but only initially. You're just regurgitating the mantra of every failure throughout human history. He did better than me so he must have cheated. Sorry but no. He did better than you because he put in the thought and effort required to do better than you.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.