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posted by martyb on Thursday August 16 2018, @09:57AM   Printer-friendly
from the What-would-Emma-Lazarus-say? dept.

CBS News reports:

The Trump administration is expected to issue a proposal in coming weeks that would make it harder for legal immigrants to become citizens or get green cards if they have ever used a range of popular public welfare programs, including Obamacare, four sources with knowledge of the plan told NBC News.

The move, which would not need congressional approval, is part of White House senior adviser Stephen Miller's plan to limit the number of migrants who obtain legal status in the U.S. each year.

[...] Though its effects could be far-reaching, the proposal to limit citizenship to immigrants who have not used public assistance does not appear to need congressional approval. As the Clinton administration did in 1999, the Trump administration would be redefining the term "public charge," which first emerged in immigration law in the 1800s in order to shield the U.S. from burdening too many immigrants who could not contribute to society.


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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Thursday August 16 2018, @02:42PM (26 children)

    by Thexalon (636) on Thursday August 16 2018, @02:42PM (#722203)

    That's a very flawed analogy. A conversation that much more closely matches reality:
    "Hey, my family was just murdered by the government, and I ran for my life to get here. Do you mind if I stay in that vacant storage shed in your backyard until I can get a crappy job somewhere and find my own place?"
    "No, we're going to turn you over to the government that just murdered your family."

    Or in more extreme cases:
    "Hey, most of my family was just murdered by the government, and I grabbed my kid ran for my life to get here. Do you mind if I stay in that vacant storage shed in your backyard until I can get a crappy job somewhere and find my own place?"
    "Gimme that kid. You're never going to see them again. We might rape them. Oh, and we're sending you to the government that just murdered most of your family."

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
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  • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 16 2018, @02:49PM (14 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 16 2018, @02:49PM (#722207) Journal

    How can you be so gullible? Those people at the border, claiming to be fleeing some war torn country? Yeah. They are here for the MONEY!!! Almost all of them. So, back to my guy who wants to move in with the chick:

    "But, that's not FAIR!! I'm trying to escape a domestic situation! My wife beats me for no reason!!"

    And, her answer, "Well, Buster, if you come near my home, I'll beat you with reason! Now, GTFO!"

    Is she an unwelcoming bitch, or not?

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Thursday August 16 2018, @03:20PM (11 children)

      by Thexalon (636) on Thursday August 16 2018, @03:20PM (#722233)

      Those people at the border, claiming to be fleeing some war torn country? Yeah.

      Given that a lot of their countries are in fact war-torn (mostly between the various drug cartels, but in Nicaragua there's been lots of people rounded up and disappeared recently), I think there's some merit to their claims.

      As for your most recent analogy, the ex could say "I can't take you in, but stay on the porch while I make some phone calls and see where you can get some help." Your answer condemns the person to death when they may in fact be trying to escape an abuser who will kill them given the opportunity.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @03:48PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @03:48PM (#722260)

        The problem with this approach is that MOST of the world is a shit hole.
        That is not a sustainable policy for letting people in.

      • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 16 2018, @03:57PM (8 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 16 2018, @03:57PM (#722273) Journal

        Feuds between drug cartels are DOMESTIC PROBLEMS. They can decide to enforce the rule of law, or live in a lawless land. No sympathy here.

        You've reminded me of that retarded commercial on the radio. "I was not born a refugee, I was made a refugee!"

        Let me define "refugee" for you. Especially in the case of military age males, a refugee is some candy ass who didn't think his own country was worth fighting for, and expects handouts from some other country. Screw them - send them back home to fight or die. Women and children, I can be more lenient with. I kind of expect the male children to grow up, go home, and fight for their country. We don't need Fuckistan's slackers.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @04:20PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @04:20PM (#722288)

          You are so dumb. LEGAL immigrants! You lot have been crowing on and on that as long as they do it legally it is just fine. Now you say fuck em anyways? You piece of bigoted lying shit.

          • (Score: 2, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 16 2018, @04:31PM (3 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 16 2018, @04:31PM (#722304) Journal

            So - they come here legally. They stay for their alloted welcome time. They are politely reminded that their time is up. If they remain, then they are no longer LEGAL. And, BTW - laws can change. You did understand that? Laws might be changed to make some "immigrants" legal, and laws might be changed to make some of them illegal. I'm in favor of sending anchor babies back to the home of origin of their parents, but that's never going to happen. We CAN send their illegal parents packing though. I don't mind separating illegals from legals, even if I don't like the way the legals became legal.

            You may also be confused about naturalization. Unless and until you are naturalized, you're not a citizen. You can be sent packing on little more than a whim, if you're not naturalized. AFTER naturalization, then it takes a good deal more than a whim.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @05:51PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @05:51PM (#722370)

              I think we need the Native Americans to stake their original claims and evict the invaders. I for one would be happy to live the shitty life of a refugee just to see assholes like yourself have an aneurysm.

              Immigration assholes, the ultimate in FYGM.

              • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 16 2018, @06:10PM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 16 2018, @06:10PM (#722387) Journal

                Heh. There would be a pretty serious underpopulation problem if the natives kicked everyone else out. They might want to keep some of us around. The Buzzard has a much better chance than I of being kept, but I have a couple traces of native blood in my veins. My wife has an excellent chance of remaining - maybe she can keep me around as her pet white boy. This is one fence I can straddle all day long!

                And, you know something else kinda funny? The only "Indian" that I know of who is 100% progressive is Elizabeth Pocahontas Warren. https://www.wnd.com/2018/05/pocahontas-descendent-wants-elizabeth-warren-to-take-dna-test/ [wnd.com]

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday August 17 2018, @03:10AM

                Fuck that, you gotta stay. I'm not giving up electricity just to have less annoying shits like you around.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @06:09PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @06:09PM (#722385)

          > Women and children, I can be more lenient with. I kind of expect the male children to grow up, go home, and fight for their country.

          That's sexist. Women are quite capable.

          • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 16 2018, @06:11PM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 16 2018, @06:11PM (#722389) Journal

            Yes, yes, women are capable. Except when they're not. Then, they are as useless as any other candy ass.

          • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 17 2018, @10:46AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 17 2018, @10:46AM (#722749)

            Depends on the fighting. With modern weapon systems, maybe. If it comes down to hand to hand, women will get pounded into the dirt, and then probably raped.
            Men are stronger, faster, and being a warrior is in their DNA. Most women I know who think they are equal fighters have never seen a youngish adult male in real full-on combat mode. It is very fast, fucking scary, and thinking they can match it is laughable.

            (The previous is very politically incorrect these days. Doesn't mean it isn't true though.)

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @07:21PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @07:21PM (#722439)

        Refugees are required to seek asylum in the first safe country that they reach. If they continue to travel, they are no longer refugees. Both Mexico and Canada are considered safe countries.

        You might object to calling Mexico safe, but normal crime doesn't count. The standard here is something like the country being run by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or similar... and you being part of the targeted group.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @09:32PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @09:32PM (#722528)

      You know you're arguing for abortions, right? If immigrants take away jobs from locals, the economy isn't growing fast enough to accommodate more workers meaning you also need to start controlling your population growth...

      Baby killer.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 17 2018, @01:26AM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 17 2018, @01:26AM (#722631) Journal

        Uhhhhhh - you're arguing that I need abortion because I'm not willing to give my country away to the first invaders?

  • (Score: 2) by VLM on Thursday August 16 2018, @04:17PM (6 children)

    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 16 2018, @04:17PM (#722284)

    until I can get a crappy job somewhere and find my own place

    The whole point of the discussion is that is not very likely on average, certainly less likely that the rest of your story about government violence.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Thexalon on Thursday August 16 2018, @04:23PM (5 children)

      by Thexalon (636) on Thursday August 16 2018, @04:23PM (#722294)

      And yet the same folks complaining about immigrants not working are at the same time complaining that immigrants are taking jobs away from hardworking Americans. So which is it? They're unemployed leeches, or they took our jobs? Logically, it can't be both.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @04:37PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 16 2018, @04:37PM (#722309)

        They're unemployed leeches, or they took our jobs? Logically, it can't be both.

        The two are not mutually exclusive, it's possible to work for cash and claim welfare.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by VLM on Thursday August 16 2018, @05:15PM (1 child)

          by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 16 2018, @05:15PM (#722341)

          Its possible to work for W-2 and claim massive benefits. Famously, Walmart works hard to sign its associates up for food stamps. Walmart is the biggest welfare queen I'm aware of.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 17 2018, @11:45PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 17 2018, @11:45PM (#723001)

            Can we kick Walmart out too? Send it to China where every piece of crap it sells are from.
            Bring back the family owned businesses!

        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by VanessaE on Thursday August 16 2018, @07:38PM (1 child)

          by VanessaE (3396) <vanessa.e.dannenberg@gmail.com> on Thursday August 16 2018, @07:38PM (#722447) Journal

          Except that it's not really.

          To apply for "welfare" (whether it's SSI, SNAP, or something else), you have to describe all sources of active income (work, friends, family, dividends, etc), all static assets (savings, CDs/bonds, your car and/or house, and any other things of significant value).

          If you have no income to speak of, or in this case if you get paid "under the table" and claim to have none, then you have to prove with legal documentation (such as a federal- or state-level disability declaration) why you can't earn more, e.g. by working.

          Oh, and you have to describe your expenses (rent, electric, fuel, etc.) and explain how you pay them.

          Oh, and they require generally 2 to 3 government-issued IDs, one of which is a federal-issue Social Security card.

          It's not as easy as the GOP would have you believe, to get "welfare", if you're able-bodied and have no kids.

          Been there, doing that (and grateful that the help exists).

          Those that game the system are surely mostly just using a sob story to get their case worker to bend the rules.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by darkfeline on Thursday August 16 2018, @07:16PM (3 children)

    by darkfeline (1030) on Thursday August 16 2018, @07:16PM (#722437) Homepage

    That's a very flawed analogy. A conversation that much more closely matches reality: "Hey, my family was just murdered by the government, and I ran for my life to get here. Do you mind if I stay in that vacant storage shed in your backyard until I can get a crappy job somewhere and find my own place?" "No, we're going to turn you over to the government that just murdered your family."

    Serious question, not trolling, what is wrong with that?

    As a US citizen, I think the US government's primary responsibility is to US citizens, not to non-US citizens. If the US has spare aid, I would rather that aid go to fellow US citizens, even if they are Republicans (ha ha, only serious), than to some non US citizen.

    If you as a FOO citizen are fucked, then quite frankly, that's a problem between you and FOO government. The US may provide aid at our discretion, but I don't see how we have any obligation to help out all of the poor and suffering people in the world.

    Also, you are suggesting that all legal and/or illegal immigrants are refugees. I find that hard to believe. There must be some proportion of young male "refugees" come to seek better opportunities, like Europe has experienced. They are not running from violence, they are ditching their country which their ancestors ran into the ground to seek a better life in a country which hasn't been run into the ground (yet). They are welcome to keep their problems in their country.

    Also, accepting immigrants has a very real cost in damage to society. I need to find the citation, but the phenomenon is quite simple. When a society accepts immigrants, the immigrants can either integrate into society, or they refuse to integrate, forming their own micro-culture and thus fragmenting and weakening the overall society. There have been a number of cases in history of this happening. Historically, America has been successful precisely because all of our immigrants integrated: they became primarily American and secondarily Italian/British/Chinese/etc. However, increasingly modern immigrants refuse to integrate and demand that they be treated differently than other Americans (cultural identity, etc.). Quite simply, this will destroy US society. In fact, history has shown that it is unstoppable, despite the efforts of the original citizens, so I guess there's no point in us trying either?

    --
    Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
    • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday August 16 2018, @08:09PM (2 children)

      by Thexalon (636) on Thursday August 16 2018, @08:09PM (#722466)

      Serious question, not trolling, what is wrong with that?

      You just sent somebody to their death, when you had plenty of resources to keep them alive. A lot of people find that morally objectionable.

      I think you're operating from a mentality where the basics of living (food, clothing, housing, etc) are scarce and hard to come by in the US, when in fact we have substantial surpluses of all of those, and also the capacity to make more of them (a capacity that is increased by immigrants looking for work to do). And if you're worried about money, don't be: We have about 8 times the GDP necessary to ensure everybody currently in the US lives at at least poverty level. As in, we could probably take in about 10-20 million people before you'd even notice.

      Are you obligated to give out food when you have twice as much as you're going to eat and some starving guy comes up to you asking for a bite? No, you aren't. But it sure would seem like the compassionate and reasonable thing to do, rather than throwing your surplus in the trash so the starving guy can maybe dig it out later.

      Also, you are suggesting that all legal and/or illegal immigrants are refugees.

      The people that are currently the center of the immigration controversies are mostly folks who have applied for political asylum, a.k.a. claiming to be refugees. That is in no small part because things have gotten substantially worse in Central America over the last couple of decades, which in part is because of US policies in that region.

      Historically, America has been successful precisely because all of our immigrants integrated: they became primarily American and secondarily Italian/British/Chinese/etc

      Or, alternately, the US has been successful precisely because each of the various kinds of people who arrived brought their own ideas and perspectives and culture with them, and historically when different cultures meet there's a bit of a cultural and technological flowering that comes from those ideas being exchanged. For instance, you don't get rock'n'roll without a lot of different cultures mixing together, and for other benefits of immigration all you have to do is visit a grocery store to see what a wide variety of things you can eat that the culture your grandparents belonged to hadn't even considered making.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Monday August 20 2018, @02:29AM (1 child)

        by darkfeline (1030) on Monday August 20 2018, @02:29AM (#723593) Homepage

        >A lot of people find that morally objectionable.

        Here's what I find morally objectionable. I cannot in good conscience go to one of the homeless US citizens in my town/city and tell them that we provided aid to refugees and that (s)he should sleep proud on the sidewalk tonight knowing that we helped a foreigner avoid death in their country.

        --
        Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
        • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday August 20 2018, @04:01AM

          by Thexalon (636) on Monday August 20 2018, @04:01AM (#723621)

          We have both the space and the cash necessary to house every homeless person in America, and millions of immigrants. The only reason those are competing interests is because of an artificial scarcity imposed to benefit banks and landlords at the expense of everybody else.

          --
          The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.