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posted by martyb on Friday August 24 2018, @04:34AM   Printer-friendly
from the what-could-possibly-go-wrong dept.

NPR has an August 23rd, 2018 story about the original "A-TEAM" (Athletes in Temporary Employment as Agricultural Manpower), a 1965 project to replace migrant workers with high school kids on summer break.

The year was 1965. On Cinco de Mayo, newspapers across the country reported that Secretary of Labor W. Willard Wirtz wanted to recruit 20,000 high schoolers to replace the hundreds of thousands of Mexican agricultural workers who had labored in the United States under the so-called Bracero Program. Started in World War II, the program was an agreement between the American and Mexican governments that brought Mexican men to pick harvests across the U.S. It ended in 1964, after years of accusations by civil rights activists like Cesar Chavez that migrants suffered wage theft and terrible working and living conditions.

But farmers complained — in words that echo today's headlines — that Mexican laborers did the jobs that Americans didn't want to do, and that the end of [the program] meant that crops would rot in the fields.

[...] the national press was immediately skeptical. "Dealing with crops which grow close to the ground requires a good deal stronger motive" than money or the prospects of a good workout, argued a Detroit Free Press editorial. "Like, for instance, gnawing hunger."

[One group] got paid minimum wage — $1.40 an hour back then — plus 5 cents for every crate filled with about 30 to 36 [melons.] [Students] worked six days a week, with Sundays off, and they were not allowed to return home during their stint. The farmers sheltered them in... "defunct housing" [according to one student].

Problems arose immediately... In California's Salinas Valley, 200 teenagers... quit after just two weeks on the job... Students elsewhere staged strikes. At the end, the A-TEAM was considered a giant failure and was never tried again.

[Stony Brook University history professor Lori A. Flores] says the A-TEAM "reveals a very important reality: It's not about work ethic [for undocumented workers]. It's about [the fact] that this labor is not meant to be done under such bad conditions and bad wages."

The kids gave up their summer vacations, worked in 110 degree heat six days a week, slept with no air conditioning, and ate subsistence rations, for nearly no benefit; it's no wonder the program was not a rousing success.

In tangentially-related news, the U.S. Libertarian Party published a press release the day before entitled "Immigrants Benefit the United States" that makes the blanket assertion "Immigrants, almost across the board, are a net value to the United States."


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by takyon on Friday August 24 2018, @04:55AM (50 children)

    by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Friday August 24 2018, @04:55AM (#725628) Journal

    If the pay goes up, the incentive to automate that job goes up.

    Obviously, there is already a lot of automation in big agriculture, but there could be even more.

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Snotnose on Friday August 24 2018, @05:01AM

    by Snotnose (1623) on Friday August 24 2018, @05:01AM (#725632)

    If the pay goes up, the incentive to automate that job goes up.

    In the 60s that didn't matter, and it would have been a good time for lettuce pickers to get 2-3x minimum wage.

    Nowadays? That was kinda my point. Shitty jobs should IMHO go away. Of course, then the limbo dance of low wages vs job shittiness goes up, but, well, it's been a while since I made a buggy whip.

    --
    Why shouldn't we judge a book by it's cover? It's got the author, title, and a summary of what the book's about.
  • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:28AM (47 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:28AM (#725647)

    If automated, then my food isn't getting touched all over by humans. This change would improve food safety.

    If automated, then there is less temptation to import uneducated people who hate my culture, values, and more.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:36AM (46 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:36AM (#725649)

      Hispanics immigrants as a rule are hard workers.
      They are Christian and, while their countries are poor, are Western societies in the main sense, albeit corrupt ones. They aren't looking to overthrow our culture.
      Yes a small number are criminal, but the vast majority are not. They are here to work, not get handouts.
      I wish I could say the same of all immigrant nationalities...

      Having said those positive things, I still think we need a slow down in immigration to assimilate all those we already have.

      • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:48AM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:48AM (#725651)

        That means a major shift in demographics towards Hispanic immigrants is a major shift away from the founding principles of a small, explicitly limited government whose sole role is to protect each individual citizen's natural, innate rights, chief among which are the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (i.e., the pursuit of self-interest).

        There are major cultural facets of America at stake here. Latin American culture is not anywhere close to U.S. culture.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:25AM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:25AM (#725694)

          ... is a major shift away from the founding principles of a small, explicitly limited government ...

          Dude, that ship sailed sank a long time ago. The latest example is borrowing $1T to provide tax cuts for corporations. That's not "small, explicitly limited government" in any sense of the word.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:50PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @05:50PM (#725935)

            Those numbers are from 2015 [oecd.org].

            Given the enormity of the United States in terms of population, diversity of population, diversity of climate and geography, etc., the U.S. has a spectacularly small government.

            Also, just because the government has grown doesn't mean it's OK to let it fatten even further. Those old American principles are still at play.

            • (Score: 1) by anubi on Saturday August 25 2018, @06:29AM

              by anubi (2828) on Saturday August 25 2018, @06:29AM (#726158) Journal

              What would those numbers look like if both healthcare and education were folded in?

              --
              "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @12:29PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @12:29PM (#725762)

          There are some differences, but they aren't as big as you think.
          As another poster has said, native American culture has already shifted away from what you are espousing! The real danger to our culture comes from radical Americans at this point (whatever their ethnic origin). It's too bad our social policies emphasize balkanization. Time for a pause to assimilate.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:49PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:49PM (#725858)

            Who the hell modded my post as Flamebait?
            Did someone see themselves on the receiving end? This just underscores my last point.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:17AM (21 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:17AM (#725664)

        It is not true that "a small number are criminal".

        First of all, 100% of the people who illegally crossed the border are criminal. Many of the rest are also criminal, getting to stay here by various kinds of visa fraud: sham marriages, falsely claimed refugee status, etc.

        Second of all, one doesn't just live in this country without documentation. These people are not undocumented at all. They are committing identity theft on a grand scale.

        My values and culture includes things like "no corruption" and "speak English" and "cheer for the American team". Somebody who arrives here speaking Icelandic is forced to learn English (or Spanish I suppose!) while somebody who speaks Spanish can get by forever without bothering.

        • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Friday August 24 2018, @06:23AM (12 children)

          by Mykl (1112) on Friday August 24 2018, @06:23AM (#725665)

          You are aware that the USA has no official language, right?

          • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:35AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:35AM (#725667)

            You are aware that culture exists in the absence of (or even despite) "official" declarations, right? Look at them goalposts go...

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @02:24PM (10 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @02:24PM (#725810) Journal

            And, which part of "assimilation" did you gloss over, so that you could pull out a not very relevant fact?

            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @02:46PM (9 children)

              by Thexalon (636) on Friday August 24 2018, @02:46PM (#725827)

              There's absolutely zero indication that recent immigrants are assimilating any slower than earlier immigrants. It generally takes about 2-3 generations to go from "We're trying to live a lot like the old country, but in America" to "We're English-speaking Americans who may have some family recipes from the old country and occasionally come out for whatever holiday has been deemed part of our ethnic heritage (e.g. St Patrick's Day)". The only difference between recent immigrants from Latin America when it comes to assimilation and, say, your family, is that they immigrated more recently, so they're not as far along in that process.

              There are a couple of exceptions to that rule though, immigrants who without question refused to assimilate and instead sought to destroy and dominate the Americans rather than become part of America. Those were the Spanish that arrived in the southwest in the 1500's, and the English that arrived on the east coast in the early 1600's. That second group in particular never even made a serious attempt to learn Algonquin or Powhatan, and insisted on keeping their strange religious ideas and family structures that were completely foreign to the US.

              --
              The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:07PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:07PM (#725840)

                Bad examples. A great example would be TEXANS.

              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @03:44PM (7 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @03:44PM (#725855) Journal

                So, you recognize that neither the English nor the Spanish are typical "immigrants" - but you still deny that "Latinos" might be invaders?

                BTW, you kinda lost your thread in the last part of the last sentence. You meant "foreign to the Americas". "Foreign to the US." is demonstrably false.

                • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @04:19PM (6 children)

                  by Thexalon (636) on Friday August 24 2018, @04:19PM (#725881)

                  Foreign to the land that is currently the US, in case that wasn't clear.

                  As for recent Latin American immigrants, the folks most likely to come to the US are darker-skinned folks who are descended from the people that were living in Central America before the Spanish showed up, who've already adapted once to another culture because they're speaking Spanish rather than Aztec or other native languages. So even if you believe in genetic predisposition to behavior in racial groups (a belief which forms a core part of fascist ideology both historically and today, I might add), you're talking about people descended not from invaders but the invaded.

                  The Spanish I was referring to were the folks that took over what is now California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas by force of arms, and built towns and Catholic missions all over the place - why do you think the major cities are named for Spanish-language versions of saints? Those places are part of the US because the US won a war against Mexico in the 1840's, which makes the English-speaking Americans at least as much invaders as any Spanish-speakers in the area.

                  --
                  The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @04:24PM (4 children)

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @04:24PM (#725886) Journal

                    And, I'll point out that the Spanish were largely conquered by Muslims a little earlier in their history. It was those conquered Spaniards who conquered the Americas. Fine example you're painting. Those conquered Central and South Americans are now coming here to get revenge, just as the Spaniards did a few hundred years ago!

                    And, all the while, I steadfastly maintain that WE, that is, modern day AMERICANS, should be barring the way of the invaders.

                    • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @05:10PM (3 children)

                      by Thexalon (636) on Friday August 24 2018, @05:10PM (#725916)

                      The big flaw in your reasoning is "people A coming to place where people B are currently living" always equals an invasion, rather than new folks in your neighborhood. It's an impulse that goes as far back as the Know-Nothing Party, but still hasn't been shown to be true.

                      --
                      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 25 2018, @05:06AM (2 children)

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday August 25 2018, @05:06AM (#726145) Journal

                        And, how are the Neanderthal and the Denisovans doing in Europe today? I think they kinda got invaded by those modern man types.

                        • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Sunday August 26 2018, @11:37AM (1 child)

                          by Thexalon (636) on Sunday August 26 2018, @11:37AM (#726515)

                          You're probably descended from them.

                          --
                          The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
                          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 26 2018, @12:18PM

                            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 26 2018, @12:18PM (#726521) Journal

                            Most Euros have some Neanderthal blood, remember? Not so much the Denisovans. The Innuit, Eskimo, and Aleut are what is left of them. The one feature that sets them apart from all the rest of us, is the layer of fat under their skin, that insulates them from the cold. Otherwise, they are hardly distinguishable from other Native Americans, and/or Pacific islanders.

                            http://discovermagazine.com/2016/dec/meet-the-denisovans [discovermagazine.com]

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:34PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:34PM (#725963)

                    and how do you know that the mongoloids that inhabited mexico didn't invade and kill the real indigenous peoples of mexico many years before? people like to assume (through indoctrination) that these obvious mongoloids are the poor victims of evil whitey, but their is (hidden) evidence that whitey was here back in the day too. maybe even before the mongoloids that make up the "natives" of the americas. it's a "big mystery" how these advanced central american civilizations went to ruin, but that's only because people choose to assume these simple people engineered the advanced civ to begin with. their own origin stories are said to tell a different tale.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:31AM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:31AM (#725698)

          There are 3 - 5 million illegal immigrants here from Europe who have overstayed their visas or otherwise blended into our society. These are not people taking jobs picking crops, washing dishes or mowing lawns. They are taking good paying, skilled labor jobs away from Americans. These are the people who endanger the American middle class. They should be the first to go.

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @01:37PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @01:37PM (#725786)

            Holy fuck, you know fuck all about immigrants. Such idiotic dribble.

          • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @02:34PM (3 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @02:34PM (#725815) Journal

            I'm not going to argue your "facts". I will offer you my own. When Bill Clinton was in office, it was estimated that there were 20 million illegals in this country. When Bush was in office, that number didn't change - still 20 million - DESPITE the fact that some estimates said a couple thousand were coming in DAILY! When Obama was in office, we were still told 20 million. With Trump in office, we're still being told 20 million. OBVIOUSLY NO ONE IN GOVERNMENT OR MSM CAN COUNT WORTH A DAMN!!

            Some of you are quite outspoken in your opinion that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed. But, FFS, I can add 20 million to a million here, a million there, a couple more million somewhere else - and come up with fifty fucking million, and more.

            So - uhhhhhmmmmm - how important are your 3 to 5 million illegal Euro invaders, compared to 50 million Mexicans?

            Now, allow me to point out here - I have not dismissed your ~4 million illegal Euros. I won't defend them. They broke the law? Catch them, prosecute them, and deport their Euro asses - their WHITE Euro asses. Go for it, you have my full support.

            Just don't try to distract attention away from our porous southern border, and 50 million invaders.

            • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @02:55PM (2 children)

              by Whoever (4524) on Friday August 24 2018, @02:55PM (#725832) Journal

              So how many illegal immigrants do you think are in the USA now? 100M? 150M?

              Perhaps you are an illegal immigrant and you just don't know it?

              It's not like immigrants (legal and illegal) die or return to their home countries. Oh, wait. They do!

              I won't defend them. They broke the law? Catch them, prosecute them, and deport their Euro asses - their WHITE Euro asses. Go for it, you have my full support.I won't defend them. They broke the law? Catch them, prosecute them, and deport their Euro asses - their WHITE Euro asses. Go for it, you have my full support.

              I still remember when the USA would not deport someone wanted for terrorism charges in Northern Ireland by the UK. Not only an illegal immigrant, but an actual terrorist. But, yeah, there is no racism involved in the way USA enforces its immigration policies and laws.

              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @03:37PM (1 child)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @03:37PM (#725852) Journal

                I used fifty million above - that's what I think it is. But, the whole point of this little exercise, is that NO ONE KNOWS! The talking heads have been stuck on that 20 million number for more than 30 years now. It is an established talking point.

                Where else have we seen an established talking point that never changes, despite the fact that it MUST CHANGE?!?!

                https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus/ [arstechnica.com]

                We've all seen the studies trumpeting massive losses to the US economy from piracy. One famous figure, used literally for decades by rightsholders and the government, said that 750,000 jobs and up to $250 billion a year could be lost in the US economy thanks to IP infringement.

                Point is - if those numbers don't fluctuate, then THEY ARE BOGUS!

                I'm tired of beign lied to. Someone, somewhere, arrived at twenty million as a "comfortable", or "acceptable" figure. And, it hasn't changed in thirty freaking years. We're simply not supposed to notice the flood, then the trickle, then the flood again, then the trickle that continues to flow. None of us are supposed to be able to add things up, to discover the claims are all bogus.

                As for your Irish terrorists - they aren't current events. Sorry, they're just a distraction here.

                • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @05:24PM

                  by Whoever (4524) on Friday August 24 2018, @05:24PM (#725924) Journal

                  How many people do you think cross the border illegally every day? 1000?

                  Let's run with that. That's 365,000 border crossings per year.

                  What's the average time an illegal spends in the USA? Some are quickly caught, so their time is effectively zero. For others, let's assume an average age at which they cross is 30. Average lifetime is ~70 years, so they spend an average of 40 years in the USA. Note that this is a huge over-estimate, because people choose to leave the USA, or are deported. Others become legal citizens.

                  Out of that 20M, with an average life of 70 years, 500,000 die every year. That's more than the number I used for new entrants, so at 1000/day, the number of illegals would be dropping.

                  So, let me agree that the 20M is wrong, but it is actually an overestimate.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @11:16AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @11:16AM (#725741)

          Second of all, one doesn't just live in this country without documentation.

          Heaps of open source software without documentation leave well enough.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:15PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:15PM (#725843)

          We ought to clear this up:

          There are 2 hot questions in this immigration debate.
          1. Are immigrants (esp. illegal ones) dangerous?
          2. Should we continue to not enforce immigration law, i.e., let everyone sneak in and stay here?

          Many commenters are conflating the 2 issues.

          In my posts, I addressed #1 for Hispanics. Not dangerous, hard working, decent people.
          My opinion for #2 is that it has been harmful to ignore basic immigration law. Ignoring the law is bad policy for all sorts of reasons.

      • (Score: 3, Redundant) by SanityCheck on Friday August 24 2018, @11:21AM (15 children)

        by SanityCheck (5190) on Friday August 24 2018, @11:21AM (#725742)

        Hispanics immigrants as a rule are hard workers.

        If they are so great, why don't they make their countries great?

        Or is it they only work hard now because there is something in it for them, and their spawn will be just as useless as all the people back in their country.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @12:16PM (6 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @12:16PM (#725757)

          This is very unfair.

          Do you think it's a piece of cake to turn around a country with hundreds of years of history and culture? It also takes money and power to do that.
          Tell me, are you mad at West Virginians who leave the holler for another state to make a living and that send money back to the relatives who stayed? The Hispanic immigrants are just doing the same thing. Poverty and violence suck.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @02:37PM (5 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @02:37PM (#725818) Journal

            Fuck unfair. Stop whining, stop making excuses, and get the job done.

            • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @02:55PM (4 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @02:55PM (#725831)

              Actually, those immigrants ARE getting the job done--it's just not the job you want them to do.

              • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @03:39PM (3 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @03:39PM (#725853) Journal

                Correct. I don't want them working as tools to undermine the US economy.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:55PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:55PM (#725861)

                  You need to direct your anger at those who made and continued to make this possible: the businessmen and the politicians.
                  Why get mad at the immigrants? I would probably do the same in their shoes.

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @04:14PM

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 24 2018, @04:14PM (#725876) Journal

                    Let me understand this. I can be justifiably angry at the businessmen, AND the politicians, AND the illegal aliens, all at the same time. But, my anger is misdirected?

                    I am angry with every single congress since about 1950. When the US did it's Operation Wetback, there was no followup. There were promises THEN of immigration reform. Not one congress has actually addressed immigration reform. Each and every congress for the entire length of my life has FAILED to do it's job.

                    I have enough anger to go around, so don't sweat that I might waste some of it on the illegals who are actually breaking the laws of the land.

                • (Score: 3, Informative) by bob_super on Friday August 24 2018, @07:04PM

                  by bob_super (1357) on Friday August 24 2018, @07:04PM (#725977)

                  Their cheap labor helps the US economy.
                  The US citizens ? Maybe not quite as much. But many people profit from cheap hands, and that slows down the outsourcing, saving whole towns in the process.
                  Shades of dark grey...

                  I'm pretty sure most Latin America immigrants would really love to see the US stop using drugs and actively undermining any socialist-leaning government. That won't solve all of their problems, but it would dramatically reduce the numbers heading north.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @12:22PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @12:22PM (#725760)

          It's always a gamble as to how the next generation turns out.
          If they are born in the US, they are automatically citizens, so they can access all services, join the military (which many do), and attend college.
          They will speak and write English well too.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @02:57PM

          by Whoever (4524) on Friday August 24 2018, @02:57PM (#725833) Journal

          If they are so great, why don't they make their countries great?

          Because it only takes a small number of assholes in a country to make it terrible. Think Trump, Koch Brothers, etc.. Or if you don't like that, how many Assads or Hitlers does it take to make a country an objectively bad place to live?

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @03:06PM (5 children)

          by Thexalon (636) on Friday August 24 2018, @03:06PM (#725838)

          If they are so great, why don't they make their countries great?

          There's a serious answer to your rhetorical question: When they've tried to do that, the US had made sure they fail. As General Smedley Butler, USMC, explained later in his life:
          "I spent 33 years and four months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force -the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from a second lieutenant to a major general. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. Thus I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914, I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. During those years I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. I was rewarded with honors, medals, promotion. Looking back on it, I feel I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three city districts. We Marines operated on three continents."

          The US has both historically and recently made things abundantly clear to the people of Latin America: If you elect the "wrong" people that are trying to make life good for their citizens than international business interests, we'll make sure that things get much worse for your country. Common US tactics for making things get much worse include but are not limited to: Military coups, death squads, starting civil wars, training torturers, and military invasions.

          Look into the history of these countries and you'll see that all of those have happened in most of those countries many many times. And that's why those countries are, in the words of the POTUS, "shithole countries".

          --
          The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:45PM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:45PM (#725856)

            While your comment is true, I would say that sort of behavior from the US hasn't happened since 1990.
            Those happened during the US era of "colonialism" and the Cold War.
            Since 1990 we have been in the era of "globalism" without US hegemony.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:58PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:58PM (#725862)

              Correction: "Imperialist" is a less confusing term than "colonial".

            • (Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @04:07PM (2 children)

              by Thexalon (636) on Friday August 24 2018, @04:07PM (#725872)

              Since 1990, the US has:
              - Forced Haiti to change its government, twice (in 1995, and 2004)
              - Fought in the now-sorta-finished civil war in Columbia
              - Backed Mexico's government against the Zapatista Rebellion against NAFTA in 1994
              - Backed and quite possibly were directly involved in the 2004 coup attempt against Hugo Chavez in Venezuela
              - Backed an attempted coup against Rafael Correa in Ecuador in 2010
              - Been part of organizing the ouster of Dilma Rousseff in Brazil before her term was up

              And that's just some of the stuff we know about. More recently, the US government has been deafeningly silent about hundreds of people being rounded up and disappeared in Nicaragua over the last few months.

              --
              The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @04:59PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @04:59PM (#725907)

                Let me clarify then and say, "The worst is over."

                ;-)

                I don't agree with some of your examples because those were where the US extended aid to a govt in putting down a guerrilla war.
                I don't think too many Colombians for example had a soft spot for the FARC in the past 20 yrs.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 25 2018, @05:38AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 25 2018, @05:38AM (#726151)

                  Those same Colombians might not appreciate the US adding fuel - or carcinogenic herbicides - to the mix.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @01:31PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @01:31PM (#725783)

        They are Christian

        No, they are Catholic. That is one reason why Christians have no solidarity with them. Ask any Christian. Catholics are not Christian, they will tell you, and Catholics are devil worshipers and idolaters who are going to hell.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @02:52PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @02:52PM (#725829)

          This is not the thought at the church I go to.
          Every church does things in the way it believes is best (how could it not?), but many churches also have the humility to know there is more than one way to get there. Our understanding is not perfect. The differences are not enough for one to make it to heaven and another not.

          BTW, I have found very committed Catholics to believe Protestants are fake Christians--they don't know what they are doing and have perverted Church teaching. I think you will find any rabid follower in any religion thinks this way.

  • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @06:11AM

    by Whoever (4524) on Friday August 24 2018, @06:11AM (#725660) Journal

    If the pay goes up, the incentive to automate that job goes up.

    Or to import the vegetables and fruit from Mexico and other countries.