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When they're not potentially infectious, they have extraordinary health claims.
The maker of wide-ranging "water-based homeopathic medicines" has recalled 32 products marketed to children and infants due to microbial contamination, according to an announcement posted on the Food and Drug Administration's website this week.
The announcement does not provide any specifics about the contamination or potential risks. However, the North Carolina-based manufacturer behind the recall, King Bio, issued a similar announcement back in July. At that time, the company recalled three other products after an FDA inspection found batches contaminated with the bacteria Pseudomonas brenneri, Pseudomonas fluorescens, and Burkholderia multivorans.
Pseudomonas brenneri is a bacterium recently found in natural mineral waters, and its clinical significance is murky. However, Pseudomonas fluorescens is known to be an opportunistic pathogen, causing blood infections, and Burkholderia multivorans can cause infections in people with compromised immune systems and cystic fibrosis. It was also recently found to be a rare but emerging cause of meningitis.
[...] UPDATE 8/24/2018: King Bio updated its website to include a note about the recall. The company wrote that: "Within the past two weeks, microbial contamination was discovered in two children's products, but as an added measure of caution, we chose to recall all the children's products manufactured from August 2015 to August 2018." It added that no injuries or illnesses have been reported to date.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 27 2018, @04:15PM (24 children)
Its not homeopathy if hes taking "pills", its some sort of BS scam.
For it to be actual homeopathy you need to shake up a container of water, then either quickly skim the bubbly layer at the top or dump out the water and skim what sticks to the glass. Then you put that solution into another container of water and repeat. In the end you drink the final solution.
As you can see all the standard chem 101 debunkings do not apply, since you are not taking a random sample from a well mixed solution. Of course, the theory behind it as explained by homeopathic practitioners is also wrong.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 27 2018, @04:48PM
I found the sources I was thinking of:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20970092 [nih.gov]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24439452 [nih.gov]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17678816 [nih.gov]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 27 2018, @04:53PM (17 children)
What you have described is not the way homeopathic remedies are supposed to be prepared. They take the original substance, dilute it maybe 1:100, shake it vigorously, and then repeat this dilution and shaking as many times as prescribed, usually 30 times. Homeopaths even have a word for this shaking process, "sucussion", which is supposed to "potentize" the homeopathic preparation. The shaking is supposed to be very vigorous. So the solution is pretty much well mixed from the outset, and by the time you get to a 30C dilution, that means diluting and shaking the thing 1:100 30 times. If you do the calculations, that comes out to be a 10-60 dilution. Ehm, Avogadro's number is only 6.02×1023, so the chance that you'll have even one molecule of the diluted thing left at the end of the process is rather vanishingly small. Even if it was done the way you described, the fact that the process is repeated so many times will probably result in the same thing. There are even 200C dilutions, making it a 10-400 dilution. Erm, there are only about 1080 sub-atomic particles in the entire visible universe. Beyond about 12C (10-24) there is only a vanishingly small chance that there is even a single molecule of the original substance left.
No, it really is just water, and has no effect beyond placebo in every well-controlled clinical trial ever conducted of homeopathy.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Monday August 27 2018, @05:49PM (9 children)
It might be effective for ailments such as thirst.
But . . . they claim there is some kind of "molecular memory". At least that is what I read on Ars a couple years ago. Of course, no explanation of how this molecular memory might work is forthcoming. Does the active ingredient somehow leave tiny sticky notes on the water molecules it comes into contact with?
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 27 2018, @06:10PM (4 children)
No, its that if you actually check the final solution carefully enough there are very low amounts of the original ingredients remaining. At some point the concentration plateaus because its all aggregating in bubbles at the top or sticking to the walls, or something.
The assumptions used for the chem 101 debunking do not hold so it is just as retarded as saying "water memory". Its idiots on all sides of this debate.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Monday August 27 2018, @06:21PM (2 children)
Maybe not "just as retarded" [hermiene.net]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @11:12AM (1 child)
No it really is the exact same thing of comign up with a bunch of assumptions that do not at all apply to the real life situation and then drawing conclusiosn about whats going on based on what can be deduced from those assumptions. I see zero difference between the two "sides" regarding homeopathy.
The only people making progress on that issue are those who actually collected data on whether this procedure really results in the theoretically calculated dilution rate. Those are the good, scientific people we should praise.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday August 28 2018, @02:08PM
You're wronger than both.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 27 2018, @11:47PM
Godwinned!
(Score: 4, Interesting) by ikanreed on Monday August 27 2018, @06:18PM
Water memory is a classic "glue the word quantum to this thing that's been shown to be bullshit, and now's it's true again" stuff.
Their argument is that the water retains the inverse entangled state of the thing put in the water by virtue of being exposed to it and interacting on the particle level. The state then spreads out among the water somehow also quantum entanglementy. This then makes the water have the opposite properties of the original molecule.
This has the following really really obvious problems.
1. That's not how entanglement works. You can just put two things in the same flask and declare them entangled.
2. That's not how entanglement works. Their next interaction with anything would erase any entanglement.
3. That's not how entanglement works. Entangled electron pairs have opposite spin, but not a lot else has any relationship.
4. That's not how entanglement works, it doesn't spread like a virus, it's a state that goes away.
5. That's not how medicine works. You don't give people the opposite of what's afflicting them to fix problems. "Shove the burn victim in the freezer"
6. That's not how medicine works. Almost all homeopathic remedies are oral, how do you even get them to the affected zone, even if they have the right properties to fix the problem.
(Score: 2) by requerdanos on Monday August 27 2018, @07:07PM (2 children)
If so, wouldn't the water remember all those times it was down in the raw sewage tank at the water treatment plant? That has happened to the water molecules, on average, a lot more times than being magically potentized through abracadabra sucussion.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 27 2018, @07:15PM (1 child)
I suppose they could argue that it would make the water even more beneficial.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by requerdanos on Monday August 27 2018, @08:00PM
Problem is, if like cures like, then with this water they would be cured of being full of a certain mushy brown smelly substance and could no longer tout the benefits of their wares. It's a paradox.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 27 2018, @05:56PM (4 children)
So you just totally ignored the part about skimming from the top or the sides of the container after dumping it?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by requerdanos on Monday August 27 2018, @08:02PM (1 child)
I understand what you are saying about physically putting water into a pill. I also want to mention...
Pro tip: You can "just totally ignore" any part of the manual and the homeopathic "remedy" will have the same effectiveness as it would otherwise.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @11:04AM
"Physically putting water into a pill" has nothing to do with the sampling from specific regions of the solution issue. You have missed the point.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:45AM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @10:55AM
Sampling from bubbles or stuff that sticks to the container is different than sampling from a random part of the solution volume. Good luck! I cant hope to help you further.
(Score: 2) by NewNic on Monday August 27 2018, @06:37PM (1 child)
I think that you are wrong, as defined by the "Homeopathic Pharmacopeia of the United States".
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @06:23PM
Can you link to this document and quote the part you are referring to?
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday August 27 2018, @05:47PM (2 children)
The final step in making the pill form is to place the final skim off the top of the water in question into a liquid gel capsule. That makes it look all scientific and medicine-y, even though it's just water by that point.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 27 2018, @05:50PM (1 child)
Adding a tiny bit of food coloring means you can dispense it in an ordinary cheap bottle and still have it look "sciencey".
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday August 27 2018, @06:06PM
Sure, but the markup probably isn't as high for that. Ultimately, though, that's a problem for the marketing department: My point is that "pill-like form" does not equal "not homeopathic", since somebody up the thread was trying to No True Scotsman their way out of the demonstration.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1) by pTamok on Monday August 27 2018, @07:08PM (1 child)
That depends on which homeopaths you talk to:
https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/75/how-do-sugar-pills-work-according-to-homeopaths [stackexchange.com]
http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_info/hahnemann_labs_preparation.html [wholehealthnow.com]
There are also 'paper remedies'
http://www.homeopathyhome.com/forums/forum/homeopathy/homeopathy-discussion/2050-paper-remedies [homeopathyhome.com]
https://jdc325.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/you-couldnt-make-it-up-paper-remedies/ [wordpress.com]
People truly believe weird and wonderful things. One of the late Richard Feynmann's quotations is apposite:
From: Some remarks on science, pseudoscience, and learning how to not fool yourself. Caltech’s 1974 commencement address. [caltech.edu] - it is worth reading the whole address.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @11:08AM
Anything depends on who you talk to. People listen to "Doctor" Oz, or "Doctor" Phil, or "Doctor House" because they call themselves doctors.