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posted by takyon on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:02PM   Printer-friendly
from the bespoke-foil-hat dept.

Submitted via IRC for TheMightyBuzzard

Mill Valley joins effort to constrain 5G proliferation

The city of Mill Valley has enacted an urgency ordinance to regulate "small cell" towers amid concerns that cellphone companies want to grow their 5G networks and install new equipment in Marin. "We do intend to do more work and studies to craft a permanent ordinance within the next year," Mill Valley Mayor Stephanie Moulton-Peters said Friday. "The urgency ordinance has standards to limit and prohibit the installations of devices in residential neighborhoods, but there is more that we can do."

The decision came on a unanimous vote by the City Council on Thursday, after residents from across Marin packed the council chambers as part of a campaign urging local officials to block cellphone companies from attempting to build 5G towers in the county. No proposals for 5G towers have been submitted to Mill Valley, staff said.

The issue is that 5G towers, which would allow for faster and higher-capacity video streaming and other transmissions, could exacerbate health symptoms already suspected as a result of exposure to electromagnetic fields, according to the EMF Safety Network, a group advocating to keep communities EMF-free. Those symptoms can include fatigue, headaches, sleep problems, anxiety, heart problems, learning and memory disorders, ringing in the ears and increased cancer risk, according to the EMF Safety Network website.

"What 5G does is it adds another cloud to what we refer to as 'electromagnetic smog' into an environment that is already pretty saturated," said Fairfax resident and activist Valeri Hood. "In Fairfax, what we're doing is asking our council to step up in the way councils have in the past, and just say no to 5G."

Also at HardOCP.


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  • (Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:14PM (12 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:14PM (#733318) Journal

    Can't we just get past this?

    Haven't we moved past the need of evidence, facts, reproducible results, and science?

    Get with the times. It's 2018 and the world is a different place.

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    People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:32PM (11 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:32PM (#733329)

    I would argue that it is best to demand evidence, facts, and scientifically reproducible results showing these systems are safe. Humans have created a new environmental factor, extensive areas blanketed by a variety of EMFs. At least we can safely say these fields aren't an immediate danger, but we have very little long term data on their effects.

    Your stance seems to be deploy everything, it'll probably be fine. Some people take the health of their families pretty seriously, and while they may ultimately be wrong it seems pretty arrogant to mock their attempts to keep their community safe.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:51PM (7 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday September 11 2018, @09:51PM (#733341) Journal

      Actually, I agree with what you say, but I'm being sarcastic about the current administration not being interested in evidence and facts. Especially when corporate profit is at stake. Strip mine the environment. Allow more pollution. Remove safety requirements. Etc.

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:47AM (6 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:47AM (#733421) Journal

        Off topic, but, those safety concerns are driving my freaking NUTS at work. I've spent much of my life in construction. Out in the field, we're safety conscious, but we have to get things done, so we weigh risks, and then get on with the job.

        Fokkin idiots I work for now insist that zero accidents is an attainable goal. So - I have a job to do that should take about fifteen minutes. Problem is, I spend those fifteen minutes discussing safety with whoever I'm working with. Then we spend a half hour to an hour getting ready to do the job. Then, we piss away another half hour talking more about the job. Finally, we get a person to turn the freaking wrench, or change a fuse, or swap out a hose, but he's restricted by his electrical hazard suit, or his tie off gear, or can't see through his safety goggles and face shield, so it takes him twice as long. Finally, that fifteen minute task is completed, but now we have to take down all the barricade tape, put away all the personal protective gear, and mop up the excessive sweat pooled beneath the work site. OH SHIT!! THAT EXCESSIVE SWEAT COULD BE HAZARDOUS MATERIAL - GET THE MANUAL!!!! GET MORE PPE!!!!

        FFS, one day, I'm just going to say "screw it", and walk off the damned job. None of these assholes have ever had to just get something done.

        • (Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday September 12 2018, @01:15AM (3 children)

          by tibman (134) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 12 2018, @01:15AM (#733428)

          Probably cheaper than being sued by the employee who opens the exploding junction box without protection.

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          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @01:31AM (2 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 12 2018, @01:31AM (#733431) Journal

            Yeah, well - in the course of "complying" with all those silly safety regs, the company has "educated" me on those exploding junction box hazards. Our hazards are almost exclusively below 2 calories. We only have - uhhhh - six places I think, that exceeds that. Those places range from 30 to 40 calories. If we exercised some common sense, and only had to suit up for those few higher energy hazards, I might not resent it so much.

            For the information of those who don't understand, 2 calories means that an arc flash has enough energy to cause sunburn-like injuries within a radius of 18 inches. Keep yourself at arms length, and the worst that can happen to you is sunburnt forearms. Gloves and long sleeved shirts are enough to address that hazard.

            • (Score: 2) by captain normal on Wednesday September 12 2018, @04:16AM (1 child)

              by captain normal (2205) on Wednesday September 12 2018, @04:16AM (#733481)

              "exploding junction box hazards"? Don't you know what circuit breakers are for?

              --
              When life isn't going right, go left.
              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @08:48AM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 12 2018, @08:48AM (#733523) Journal

                Fuses are more reliable than breakers. I used to bitch about changing fuses, but I've learned enough to prefer fuses.

        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:49PM (1 child)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:49PM (#733623) Journal

          idiots I work for now insist that zero accidents is an attainable goal.

          It IS an attainable goal. (Or at least extremely close to zero.) The only question is at what cost? Is it a pyrrhic victory? [wikipedia.org]

          It's like bug free software. Or software that is absolutely on schedule.

          Let me point out the Space Shuttle avionics software program. (I read an amazing article about this in the very early 2000s) All the developers on this were middle aged, parents, married, station wagons, etc. No rockstar developers. Everything was planned and documented before any code was written. When it came time to write the code, every function was already documented, what parameters it would take, what it would do, etc. In effect the documentation was the code in some sense. All of the algorithms had been worked out. All of the orbital calculations. Navigation. Procedures and contingencies for various events detected.

          This software development group had only one product. The Space Shuttle avionics software.

          There was a ceremony that had to happen prior to launch. The director had to fly out to somewhere and sign a document that said that the software WOULD work.

          There were only 2 bugs in the entire history of the program (up to the date of that article). And they were minor.

          Wow! That's Amazing!

          Yep. The only thing is that the development and maintenance cost was $35,000.00 per line of code.

          This is probably like that zero accidents thing. It's one thing to have a culture of safety. Disney is more safety conscious than any corporation I've seen. But it can be taken to ridiculous levels.

          --
          People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:55PM

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:55PM (#733625) Journal

            I kind of missed my point with the above.

            It may be worth it to spend lavishly on safety to save lives (or billions of dollars of equipment!) to prevent loss of vehicle.

            But most software development doesn't go to these extremes.

            Microsoft has shown us that it is possible to have a culture where customers are the beta testers.

            For web developers I would point out the following. ALL web developers have a testing environment. The lucky ones (like me) also have a testing environment that is separate from the production servers. (in case you miss my meaning, the unlucky ones use production as their testing system)

            --
            People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 2) by Snotnose on Tuesday September 11 2018, @11:55PM (1 child)

      by Snotnose (1623) on Tuesday September 11 2018, @11:55PM (#733395)

      I would argue that it is best to demand evidence, facts, and scientifically reproducible results showing these systems are safe.

      Then nothing new would be allowed to happen. Can you prove radio waves don't cause harm in any way to living organisms? Howsabout bottled water? Canned tomatoes? A cellar's worth of jarred vegetable harvest?

      No, you can't. Remember, under current laws aspirin would be illegal.

      --
      Why shouldn't we judge a book by it's cover? It's got the author, title, and a summary of what the book's about.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:29AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @02:29AM (#733448)

        Nice hyperbole, shows your mental acuity for what it is. Many things are optional, irradiating entire neighborhoods takes away the choice for many people. Besides, my comment was obviously a remake of the OP's.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:52AM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 12 2018, @12:52AM (#733422) Journal

      I would argue that it is best to demand evidence, facts, and scientifically reproducible results showing these systems are safe.

      Have you determined via the same approach that your proposed procedures are safe? That is, have you eaten your own dog food?