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Submitted via IRC for TheMightyBuzzard
In our increasingly politicized world, it has become popular to chant "all software is political." Software builds the systems that free or constrain us, the thinking goes, and so we should withhold it from bad people. This is the thinking that has led Microsoft employees and others to decry contracts tech companies have with ICE (US Department of Homeland Security Immigration and Customs Enforcement), insisting that their software only be sold to people they like.
[...] Over the years we as an open source community have experimented with all sorts of stupid ideas, like efforts to block anyone from using code for commercial purposes unless they pay. Each time, we've realized that as good a goal as it is for developers to get paid, for example, the destruction caused by closing off the code to uses we don't like ends up ruining the foundations upon which open source rests.
This is dramatically more important, however, when it comes to attempts to politicize open source software.
As developer Chris Cordle stated, "Nobody wins" and the "whole idea [undergirding open source] dies" ... "if an author arbitrarily picks and chooses who can and can't use it based on whoever Twittersphere is mad at this week." It doesn't matter if there is tremendous cause for that anger. Open source dies when it becomes politicized.
Source: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-politicizing-open-source-is-a-terrible-idea/
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday September 12 2018, @04:16PM (41 children)
Bad people: someone with political view I dislike.
So I'll manipulate some organization that I could influence (including possibly open source project) to deny products and services to "bad people".
The first problem is that sword cuts both ways. "bad people" (with differing viewpoints) might do the same to me.
The second problem is it strikes me as the classic fascist knee jerk reaction of using any available sledge hammer to hit your hated opponent. Even if it is merely over a political viewpoint. If I do this, then in some sense it makes me the "bad people". Petty. Vindictive.
Now, there are some "bad people" who really are bad! Like Nazis. Real ones. Carrying flags. Trying to deny them products and services seems like a futile way to react. Better would be education, and prevention of crime, or effective prosecution of it. Things that have a better chance of making a real difference.
Finally, would we want to see political division infect open source projects? Or even corporations? (which are bad enough already driven entirely by short term greed)
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by jmorris on Wednesday September 12 2018, @04:45PM (21 children)
Problem is the SJWs don't care anymore. They control all the commanding heights of the culture (with the exception of the Presidency, which is what has driven them mad) including the media, the universities and for all intents and purposes the entire tech industry and the vast majority of the Fortune 500 in general now. They think it is time to wield that power to destroy their enemies once and for all in a Final Solution.
The incident that triggered this debate ended badly for the freak who changed the license, but they won't stop trying and eventually they will succeed, exactly like they spent the last year or two mandating a CoC on every open source project to build a base of power to allow these sort of actions. Although again in this case that too backfired as the CoC was used to eject the SJW. The enemy is deep inside the gates now and quickly growing in number. Best to start quietly archiving important software to ride out the Crazy Years.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @05:27PM (16 children)
You are nuts. Unhinged from reality. Gone round the bend. Back to gabba or whatever with you, begone beast!
(Score: 5, Funny) by aristarchus on Wednesday September 12 2018, @07:59PM (5 children)
We should prey for jmorris. He deserves our sympathy, not scorn and revilement. Undoubtedly he is possessed by daemons most foul, probably proprietary.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday September 12 2018, @10:21PM (2 children)
I thought enough people were already trying to prey on jmorris? He just seems to be too nimble for the attempted predator most of the time.
Ok, I'll pray for him.... 'Lord we give thanks for the food which we are about to receive......'
This sig for rent.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 13 2018, @12:08AM (1 child)
Not just food, OK?
https://militaryphilosopher.blogspot.com/2007/11/for-what-we-are-about-to-receive.html [blogspot.com]
"For what we are about to receive..." might include all manner of things.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 13 2018, @05:22AM
Divine justice? Swamp drainage? They all result in less of jmorris soooo fine by me!
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Captival on Thursday September 13 2018, @04:13AM (1 child)
jmorris actually believes that politicization of software by rabid Liberal ideologues is a bad thing? He must be destroyed for his own good. Let's call him a Nazi a lot to show him how superior are, then some congratulatory back patting for ourselves because we're so righteous. Meanwhile, we'll send some Antifa goons over to destroy his property and send him a few death threats. That'll teach him for being politically neutral.
(Score: 2, Funny) by aristarchus on Thursday September 13 2018, @04:23AM
Now, now, Captival, UID 6(8)66, if that is your real name, no one is suggesting violence toward our fellow Soylentil, jmorris. We love him, so much, indeed, that we are willing to do an intervention in situations like this, where his demons get the better of him. But you, UID 6(8)66, you are not fooling anyone! Number of the Beast? Mephistopheles? Is that you, oh dark one that hides in the cover of libertarian conservatism? Let our Soylentil go! Release your hold on jmorris! Or we will put in a rider on all our software that prohibits its use by any denizen of Hades. Now back were you came from, hellish troll and very bad one at that.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @11:55PM (9 children)
Actually, jmorris is not unhinged. He and I disagree sometimes, but he does have a pretty clear view of reality. It is the muppets like you who are being led around by some pied piper, calling itself "progressive". Note the lack of a gender specific pronoun.
Do you SERIOUSLY believe that if/when that piper attains power, it will share that power with people like you?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Thursday September 13 2018, @04:27AM (8 children)
Says the most unhinged member of SN? Seriously? This is just like David Duke swearing up and down (and probably up and down again, it's an alt-right thing, ask Milo) that Richard Spencer is not a racist. Job well done, Runaway! How is it possible for you to be so obtuse? Really, I would like to know. Such profound ignorance does not happen without intent.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 13 2018, @08:57AM (7 children)
Ari, whose doors were hung using strips of cowhide in ancient Greece, feels himself competent to speak about unhinging? Perhaps you would care to revisit AthanasiusKircher's farewell thread again. You are mentioned by name there. Aristarchus' toxicity is legendary!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Thursday September 13 2018, @09:15AM (6 children)
Jealous, Runaway? You are the most toxic, because you have the least to say, being an uneducated American, which if it were not so redundant would be embarrassing. You contribute nothing but vitriol and bile, venom and idiocy, in all your posts. We learn nothing from you, because you have nothing to share, but you are blissfully unaware of that fact. Go back to watching Fox News, and pining for the days when a Clinton was your Governor, or the two times a Clinton was your first Lady. And you best show proper respect, or we will give you the Soylentil equivalent of a Captain's Mast, you scallywag!
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 13 2018, @09:40AM (2 children)
Did you say vitriol, bile, venom, and idiocy? Then, you post your hatred of Americans, right here in plain sight, for all to see.
Kinda funny - over time you have claimed to be American, Greek, black, white, and a number of other things. Why, you even claim to be educated!! Nobody knows who or what this Aristarchus personna really is, aside from hateful.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aiwarrior on Thursday September 13 2018, @12:20PM (1 child)
Aristarchus I disagree with Runaway1956 but you are not really bringing any righteousness by calling him uneducated and all sorts of insults. You are in the end, your own worse enemy of your ideas.
jrmorris is known for his opinions. They are not popular around here, and this is the actual good meaningful result here. Rejoyce in that. You starting insults is more or less counter to the point.
@Runaway, jmorris ideas are not the most consistent thing I have read set in ASCII. Supporting him may taint the often good no non-sense attitude that you show which might give you credibility. Unless the no-nonsense attitude has another meaning.
People are irrelevant, they should be free to be what they want. Ideas are what you must judge. This is the actual problem of nowadays political climate. We attack the messengers instead of the messages. This is what is poisonous.
Social orthodoxy like the kind propagated by SJW or other populace moralists, is fascism. Pure and simple!
Disliking a person because he is black or purple or brownish is racism. Pure and simple
A white SJW is as good an idiot as the Goebles loving people, as Serena Williams calling an umpire referee decision sexist (lol wtf?). The common link is the ideas as messages they propagate: They are easily deconstructed.
If people and actual black people would follow Martin Luther King's motto: Judge not by color of their skin but by the content of their character, a lot of bullshit would stop.
1st proposal: If people do not want to volunteer for that open source project, that is fine. They can even maintain their own branch, I do with Open embedded.
2nd proposal: If people do not want businesses to sell that or to that one, do not work there. You are free and (ohh yeah responsible).
3rd proposal: If you do not want businesses to undertake certain lines of work, convince your fellow citizens of it's wrongness and how you can overcome the hardship that may create.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 13 2018, @10:08PM
Thank you, Sir.
Yeah, I realize that supporting some people - uhhh - "looks bad" shall we say. JMorris? Sometimes he goes overboard, and often enough, overstates his case. That's the biggest reason I don't support him more than I do. But, even so, his brand of unpopular is more palatable most of the time, than the popular nonsense thrown around.
Maybe I need to concentrate more on stating my own opinion, and avoid "taking sides", even when one side is obviously so far out in left field as to be out of the ball park. I mean - it's easier to identify with the guy who is still in the ball park, than to identify with the crowd at the custard stand, over in the next town.
MLK. The man would roll over in his grave if he were to hear about BLM and Antifa. I hope no one goes by the grave yard to tell him about current events.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 13 2018, @10:11PM (2 children)
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=27562&page=1&cid=734182#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
Wanted to make sure you saw that. It seems an objective opinion, and one not swaddled in partisan bullshit.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Thursday September 13 2018, @11:57PM (1 child)
Yes, I saw it, you vomituous mass of partisan hackery! Did you even read it? You are being lead to far more radical ideas that you actually hold. This is exactly how Trump is leading American to Southern stupidity, racism, and ultimately fascism. It will all be your fault, Runaway.
Now go ahead, complain some more that aristarchus is being mean to you!
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 14 2018, @12:24AM
Mean to me? Somehow, I missed that bit of data. The real problem here is that you're posting stupidly vile insults, without any substance at all. Tell me - have you fallen and bumped your head in the past couple of years? Think hard - I can't exactly specify a time at which you "lost it", but apparently, sometime before Hillary's debacle. Maybe you should see your physician? A CAT scan or some such seems to be in order. If you can recover to the point that you can post semi-intelligent, rational insults, we will both enjoy Soylent more.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @07:59PM (3 children)
define CoC please
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @09:03PM (1 child)
CoC, Code of Conduct : 1. A coherent list of rules designed to provide an open, caring and non-toxic environment where lack of actual ability doesn't matter, as long as you are not a SWM*. 2. A document designed to give control of a project to SJW's so that you aspies can't hurt our feels anymore.
*SWM : Straight white male. For the purposes of SJW's, sufficient physical disability may also qualify as bent.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @09:48PM
As a SWM I'm here to tell you that you are suffering from a persecution complex. You are either a reactionary dumbass or an asshole who thinks people don't like you because you are a SWM.
I'm sure there are some stupid abuses that have happened, but hey that is life. Shall we label all conservatives "Nazis" just because there are some real Nazi Conservatives? I'm sure you have the urge to say "yeah, that is exactly what you libruhls cucked SJWs do!" at which point I refer you back to the first paragraph where you must decide whether you are a dumbass or an asshole.
Personally I place my bet on all the CoC haters being assholes who are used to getting away with it over the internet and are upset that anyone should dare require civility to be a part of their project. AKA: whiny little man childs.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 13 2018, @12:10AM
One of a pair of very rich brothers, or a former mayor of New York, or possibly a tubular appendage used to impregnate female members of the species.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @05:24PM (18 children)
This is what we all did since WWII. We didn't outlaw nazism. We let the faithful few espouse it, as we let any other person espouse whatever they want to espouse, because that's how freedom of speech works. As a result, nazis and their spiritual brethren the KKK remained, but slowly, ever so slowly, dwindled to the brink of extinction.
Fast forward to now, when nazis and klansmen have been morphed into the discursive equivalent of Satan, and absolutists have decided that's such a powerful meme that they can use it to demonize a broader set of people and ideas they don't like. So they expanded the discursive boundaries of what comprises a nazi or klansman, and then, since there are necessarily so many more of those around under the new definition, they stridently insist that sterner measures be taken to combat them, because they're a "growing threat."
(Now, a reasonable person might observe that they're a growing threat because the absolutists are the ones who are growing them by expanding the definition, but they are easily shouted down with cries of, "How can you bury your head in the sand?!!" or, "Civilization itself is at stake!!!!" or, "Think of the children! Won't anyone please think of the children!")
The result is that the numbers of real nazis and klansmen are on the rise because when extremists go to extreme measures, others naturally go to the other extremes to oppose them. That suits the absolutists fine, though, because then they can take that as evidence for their writ. It's a deleterious dialectic, with ever tightening and quickening gyres.
Can anyone explain to me how such a thing can not end in actual bloodshed?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by insanumingenium on Wednesday September 12 2018, @05:48PM (12 children)
Are the numbers of real nazis and klansmen on the rise? Honestly, I don't know one way or the other, and you seemed to be making a case for the idea that they aren't, only the attention given to them, then had the conclusion that they are genuinely on the rise.
If I knew any nazis I would ask how recruitment is going.
My answer, and I don't hold it as absolute truth, just the best option I know, is that all the "absolutists" should be mocked wherever possible. Reducing nazis to a trope should hopefully reduce the allure as well as the perceived threat. Hogan's Heros made nazis a joke, perhaps they could bring it back.
(Score: 3, Redundant) by VLM on Wednesday September 12 2018, @06:49PM (4 children)
Obviously if you redefine mainstream Republican Party beliefs or being of the white race as being Nazi, whereas "in the old days" to be a Nazi you had to be a member of a political party that expired in 1945 on the other side of the planet, oh heck yes the numbers are absolutely exploding.
It also helps if you make no distinction between leftist two minutes hate imaginary media straw dogs, actual historical white nationalism 1.0 from the 80s type people, and modern alt-right thought, whereas in reality none of the three have very much in common.
With a side dish of all politics is a rotating path, and the recently dominant left has run out of useful and valid ideas; naturally all the good idea will come from the right.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @08:58PM
Republicans are nearly extinct today, as well. There are only three, really: Trump, Steve Miller, and Newt Gringrinch. All the rest have defected to the Democratic, anti-fascist party. (Always three there are, a Master, and Apprentice, and a Buffon. )
(Score: 5, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday September 12 2018, @09:41PM
Obviously if you redefine mainstream Republican Party beliefs or being of the white race as being Nazi, whereas "in the old days" to be a Nazi you had to be a member of a political party that expired in 1945 on the other side of the planet, oh heck yes the numbers are absolutely exploding.
Hitlery [soylentnews.org]
Hitlery [soylentnews.org]
Hitlery [soylentnews.org]
Hitlery [soylentnews.org]
Hitlery [soylentnews.org]
Got any more victim cards to play? Any kettles you'd like to describe?
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @09:55PM (1 child)
VLM, Very Lazy Manchild
Get a grip you wacko, your projection gets old and your ignorance of reality is staggering. "... the recently dominant left"? Democrats have barely had any real dominance and they are no longer liberal really with their attempt to ride the center and get more votes. If the left was truly dominant we would have single payer health care. Instead we got the ACA which conservatives got all angry now that the new administration is chipping away at it, and perversely those same angry conservatives just HATE Obamacare.
You are ignorant scum spreading lies and hate, but don't worry I won't try and abridge your freedoms.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 13 2018, @12:17AM
Dafuq you talking about? There is no "center" in the US. Or, if there is still a center, the D's work overtime trying to destroy it. In our R and D politics, D stands for "divisive" - as in, divide and conquer. The D's rely on identity politics, denying that we are all Americans. In fact, the D's are intent on importing people who are not Americans, for the express purpose of out-voting Americans.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday September 12 2018, @07:23PM (6 children)
The SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) seems to think they are [splcenter.org].
I think mocking absolutists is counter-productive. It incites them and makes them stronger. It also lulls everyone into the false belief that such extremism "could never happen here." I've long argued that the way Jews lampooned Nazis and reduced them to cartoon cutouts was dangerous, because it glosses over what the Nazis were about and how they came to power in a modern, industrialized, and supposedly enlightened society. (Jews also demonized the Nazis, with the same effect)
I think the best way to answer extremism is to counter it with critical thinking and reason. Don't give them an inch discursively, but don't give into the temptation to de-platform or censor them; that just hands them an easy victory. And, finally, and most importantly, address the underlying causes for people to be angry in the first place--stop rigging the economy and everything else for the connected few, and maybe everyone else will stop wanting to kill them.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @09:08PM
Your last sentence implies that the connected few who get all the money are jews. You have been reported to the ADF and will be de-platformed, you anti-semite.
(Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Wednesday September 12 2018, @09:42PM (3 children)
I disagree with the idea that mocking them makes them stronger unless perhaps they are already in control, in which case, sure, we are back to playing into their hand by making ourselves appear to be the foolish ones.
To that point, I don't know of anybody who has ever built a movement on being lampooned. On the contrary there seem to be an entrenched belief that I shouldn't mock some subjects, which I take as evidence of its (potential) effectiveness.
I do agree that sober discussion of how the nazis came to power is hugely educational, but I don't think that mocking stupid beliefs and teaching history are mutually exclusive, rather I hold that both are vital.
I absolutely agree critical thinking and reason are hugely important, and that censorship is a terrible idea. But I am not talking about rational subjects and rational discussion, I am taking about discouraging irrational beliefs in (assumed) sane individuals. I don't think that the best response to a flat earther is to build further evidence against them, but rather to ask them if they used GPS to find their way here. Flat earthers are an excellent example of a group that seems to be purpose built for lampooning, and where rational discourse is of no value, if they actually had an open mind they would see that there is a huge library of proof at all levels that the earth isn't flat. And in the off chance that they are trolls to the man (which is frankly what I am hoping to be true), I got a chuckle, and didn't give them the outrage they desired.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @10:46PM (2 children)
Deplatforming and censorship makes them stronger. Mockery diminishes them to the point where they are no longer taken seriously as a threat. Engagement works but you'll be attacked. [nytimes.com] The far-left and the far-right are feeding off one another, you can't tackle one side without tackling them both.
(Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Wednesday September 12 2018, @10:57PM (1 child)
While we are at it, is there a compelling argument for using the word deplatforming as opposed to just calling a spade a spade and leaving it at censorship?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @11:43PM
Yes because it's a very specific form of censorship. [marcuse.org]
Marcuse knew that falsely attacking conservatives and liberals as "fascists" was what brought actual fascists to power. This scrappy essay was as inexcusable when first written as it remains now, disguising authoritarianism as tolerance and hoping nobody would notice. Marxist in denial [quadrant.org.au] he was not.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 13 2018, @07:03AM
Ha! As if they could be stronger! No, instead, we seduce their women. Women are much more pragmatic than white supremacists, which is why so few of them manage to procreate, which is kind of an embarrassment, given their ideology. But their women know that Liberals last longer, Blacks are bigger, and Feminist men are much more attentive to female needs in the coitus. So I say, fuck 'em. Well, not fuck them, but fuck their wives, girlfriends, mothers, and aunties. The weakness of white supremacy is that it is an all male movement. You know what I mean?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 12 2018, @06:24PM
Interesting.
People wanting to fight extremism become extremist.
Maybe the next census could ask: Are you a Nazi?
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 4, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday September 12 2018, @06:35PM
Alternatively, a certain political party started actively courting those folks and did a lot of lying along the way to make them feel like perpetual victims.
(Score: 3, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday September 12 2018, @06:42PM (1 child)
This is what we all did since WWII. We didn't outlaw nazism.
Also, that was AFTER we killed almost all of them....
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12 2018, @10:52PM
Not really [wikipedia.org] although some are belatedly facing justice. [haaretz.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by gawdonblue on Wednesday September 12 2018, @10:24PM
Except if what you said might have been Un-American [wikipedia.org].