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posted by mrpg on Sunday September 23 2018, @01:29PM   Printer-friendly
from the ??? dept.

Coding Error Sends 2019 Subaru Ascents to the Car Crusher:

Usually, news of an automotive-related software issue involves an error like last week's GM recall of 1 million SUVs and pickups because of a steering defect in their electric power-steering module. GM stated that the defect can cause a momentary loss of power steering followed by its sudden return, which can lead to an accident, and already has in about 30 known cases. GM says a software update to the module available from its dealers will fix the problem.

But a software remedy can't solve Subaru's issue with 293 of its 2019 Ascent SUVs. All 293 of the SUVs that were built in July will be scrapped because they are missing critical spot welds.

According to Subaru's recall notice [PDF] filed with the U.S. National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, the welding robots at the Subaru Indiana Automotive plant in Lafayette, Ind., were improperly coded, which meant the robots omitted the spot welds required on the Ascents' B-pillar. Consumer Reports states that the B-pillar holds the second-row door hinges. As a result, the strength of the affected Ascents' bodies may be reduced, increasing the possibility of passenger injuries in a crash.

Subaru indicated in the recall that "there is no physical remedy available; therefore, any vehicles found with missing welds will be destroyed." Luckily, only nine Ascents had been sold, and those customers are going to receive new vehicles. The rest were on dealer lots or in transit.


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  • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:43PM (20 children)

    by acid andy (1683) on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:43PM (#738854) Homepage Journal

    Don't they mean that nobody can be bothered / trusted to properly implement a procedure to strip down the affected areas of the vehicles, weld it up and re-assemble?

    People weld up far worse areas of weakness to save classic cars and at least in this case the exact location and nature of the problem is known in advance.

    --
    If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
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  • (Score: 2) by Arik on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:55PM (14 children)

    by Arik (4543) on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:55PM (#738857) Journal
    If the only problem were the spot welds, as you say, that's not something that's difficult to solve. At all.

    Making that line total bullshit of course. No physical remedy? Easy, obvious physical remedy.

    So, I think of two possibilities. There's a lot more wrong than they're telling us. Or they're so brittle in terms of skills that they can't come handle a job a high school shop class could do, when it's ever so slightly outside of their daily routine.

    Perhaps even a mix of both. Maybe the spot welds are the only problem they *know* about, but QA broke down and they are worried there are more serious issues. That might justify this response - but again it kind of assumes a shocking lack of competence at the factory, to have zero confidence in their ability to re-check the cars out of process.
    --
    If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:10PM (6 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:10PM (#738862)

      So, I think of two possibilities.

      Not that the location of the missing spot welds may be inaccessible in the completed product or that a hack repair would require extensive (and costly) retesting for safety?

      • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:16PM

        by acid andy (1683) on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:16PM (#738864) Homepage Journal

        or that a hack repair would require extensive (and costly) retesting for safety?

        I'm thinking this is mostly likely the root of the issue. It's a legal ass covering exercise.

        --
        If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
      • (Score: 2) by Arik on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:43PM (4 children)

        by Arik (4543) on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:43PM (#738868) Journal
        "Not that the location of the missing spot welds may be inaccessible in the completed product"

        A problem any number of amateur car enthusiasts have solved over and over again.

        "a hack repair would require extensive (and costly) retesting for safety?"

        I suspect that's more to the point. We live in a society where it's much safer to throw man-years worth of work into the crusher rather than take the slightest risk that someone who doesn't understand how things work might come along later and place blame on you.

        Lack of competence, if it's in play, would be a not-entirely-separate thing; years of operating in such a constrictive environment results in those competencies atrophying as they are never used.

        That frame IS a pretty piece of engineering, and I could easily see them going to some lengths to make it clear these were not precisely standard and might not be absolutely 100% of what they should be. Just so there's no room to claim misrepresentation, though, not because there's really a safety concern. Even if we assume the repair would represent a significant reduction in strength versus the standard product it would still be more than strong enough for market, stronger than most vehicles have.

        Even if they removed all the branding and sold them cheap to employees, that would be better than a total loss. Crushing them is just such a senseless waste.
        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @04:28PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @04:28PM (#738881)

          A problem any number of amateur car enthusiasts have solved over and over again.

          As I stated elsewhere, these techniques will not scale to 250 vehicles.

          it's much safer to throw man-years worth of work into the crusher rather than take the slightest risk that someone who doesn't understand how things work might come along later and place blame on you.

          Many commenters are bagging on Subaru but they're making the correct choice from a consumer safety perspective. That deserves some level of praise, not condemnation. Yes, it's wasteful and we'd all like to see the parts from the existing vehicles repurposed. This may not be viable due to prohibitive rework, testing and insurance costs.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Arik on Sunday September 23 2018, @05:31PM (2 children)

            by Arik (4543) on Sunday September 23 2018, @05:31PM (#738901) Journal
            It's not my intention to bag Subaru over it at all.

            As car makers go, these guys are among the best. I've been a fan of theirs since the 70s and I still am.

            My point is not against them, but against the larger system in which they have to exist, which is why they're doing this.

            "This may not be viable due to prohibitive rework, testing and insurance costs."

            And this may be because those costs are artificially, and unnecessarily, elevated.

            In fact may is probably too weak there, it seems well beyond doubt.
            --
            If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @06:26PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @06:26PM (#738921)

              It's not my intention to bag Subaru over it at all.

              A general point about the overall tone of the comments, by no means was it specifically targeted at you.

              As car makers go, these guys are among the best. I've been a fan of theirs since the 70s and I still am.

              Owned a 2nd gen Forrester and it was awesome. The only Subaru I would have been seen dead in, also quite the realistic prospect considering the speed I could take corners in it. The 2019 model OTH - remove the turbo and add creepy facial recognition? [youtube.com]

              And this may be because those costs are artificially, and unnecessarily, elevated.

              I hear you, just do not think regulatory compliance as it pertains to planes, trains and automobiles is necessarily evil in the grand scheme of things. It's one area where both government and free market constraints conspire to make us all safer.

              • (Score: 2) by Arik on Tuesday September 25 2018, @05:43AM

                by Arik (4543) on Tuesday September 25 2018, @05:43AM (#739565) Journal
                "I hear you, just do not think regulatory compliance as it pertains to planes, trains and automobiles is necessarily evil in the grand scheme of things. It's one area where both government and free market constraints conspire to make us all safer."

                But they don't, actually, because no free market exists there.

                You're simply not permitted to offer anything that does not comply with the regulations. Ergo the market is not free. It's really as simple as that.

                In an actual free market, though it might seem similar on the surface, the nuts and bolts would be quite different.

                There would be no regulation outright prohibiting you from offering goods and services that do not comply with any particular standard. That is what the 'free' part means.

                Some people will read that and quickly go insane - they'll read this as NOTHING STOPS YOU from offering unsafe or otherwise undesirable and subpar services as if they were the real thing, bad drives out good, race to bottom, it's all shit now you fool!

                But that's not what I'm saying at all. There are still many things discouraging you from doing this - perhaps even more effectively than a flat prohibition would have, at least in the cases where we REALLY wanted those prohibitions enforced. For example, safety. We live, in this century, in the west, under what's called a regulatory safety system. There are safety regulations, and any product offered in commerce MUST meet them, period. That's supposed to protect consumers. And the other side - as long as you meet those regulations, you have a strong presumption against liability - that's to protect the manufacturers.

                Well, the fact is, the latter are well protected, the former much less well served. You've no doubt been brainwashed to believe otherwise, you may have to consciously observe for some time to fully see that you've been deceived - but it's fact. This system is built to serve the manufacturer - to shield him from what he fears most - the common law of liability. It is essentially a sort of  sleight of hand, or one might aptly even call it a con game; it is designed to give the consumer an illusion that inspires confidence, while protecting the manufacturer in fact.

                A free market eliminates your regulatory regime, and in doing so it re-activates the common law of liability that the regulatory regime was created to suppress. This system, on balance, was far more advantageous to the consumer, and would be again. So your concern is not just misplaced it is truly reversed.

                --
                If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by RandomFactor on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:40PM (6 children)

      by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:40PM (#738866) Journal

      Let's think through this from the company perspective (not from an individual owner's perspective)
       
      1) Repair the vehicles themselves. This would be tearing the cars apart, manually fixing the welds, and then manually reassembling them at probably $15k+ per vehicle (it can cost $1k for a damned mirror replacement these days, but still...better estimates anyone?), fixing any scuffs and dings from this process to make them new-ish again, etc. Then selling them at a discount and then if there is ever a problem, get sued anyway. At best this might cut their losses a little but the downsides are significant.
       
      It is also entirely possible the repair would entail destroying and replacing a bunch of interior or trim for additional expense, along with transportation costs, taxes, blah blah blah.
       
      There is also a concept called 'opportunity cost' in play. The resources they devote to this salvage process would have been doing something else that presumably generates profit, and likely a lot faster than the profit associated with the vehicles being manually (inefficiently) salvaged.
       
      2) Let others repair them. Sell something approaching 293 separate vehicles directly for external repairs by a bunch of shade tree mechanics. Transport, prepare and provide detailed repair instructions. Have the vehicles driven/resold unrepaired/poorly repaired and get sued anyway. Again big downsides, not much upside really.

      3) Sell to salvage yards for pennies, have people buy and drive them and still wind up getting sued anyway.
       
      Yeah, it sucks and a personal economic decision changes things if you can work one as a project on your own time on weekends and evenings for a few months, but I'm not going to fault the company for deciding to trash that batch and move on.

      --
      В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:48PM (4 children)

        by Arik (4543) on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:48PM (#738871) Journal
        To be clear, I'm not faulting the company.

        I'm trying to point out the insane environment the company is operating in, by way of the insane decisions that result.

        Perfectly rational for the company in the environment it is in; but utterly insane in a larger field of view.

        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by RandomFactor on Sunday September 23 2018, @04:02PM (3 children)

          by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Sunday September 23 2018, @04:02PM (#738874) Journal

          I recall my dad thinking about 'maintainability' in purchasing vehicles.
           
          I'm trying to think of anyone I know that really does that these days. Hell the last time I told my wife to just pick up spark plugs and I would do them I got a pretty rude awakening at just how UN-maintainable a modern vehicle has become and wound up basically saying go have this done, I'm out (Drop the engine to swap plugs? Seriously???)
           
          The ability to access and fix and maintain vehicles doesn't dominate the purchase time decision so the company goes a few hundred dollars cheaper and gets the sale.
           
          Whatever happened to that modular phone?

          --
          В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Arik on Sunday September 23 2018, @05:05PM (2 children)

            by Arik (4543) on Sunday September 23 2018, @05:05PM (#738894) Journal
            "I'm trying to think of anyone I know that really does that these days."

            Everyone I know does.

            Not everyone demands to be treated as fully human, of course. Those that do, are buying, restoring, maintaining older cars instead of buying new. But most are looking for some level of compromise - which means this is still one of the things they're thinking about, they're just willing to compromise it to a degree for convenience or whatever - but it's still a factor they consider.

            "(Drop the engine to swap plugs? Seriously???)"

            What make and model, seriously?

            "The ability to access and fix and maintain vehicles doesn't dominate the purchase time decision so the company goes a few hundred dollars cheaper and gets the sale."

            It's almost a half full half empty perspective thing as well though. It's horrifying how much of this crap people will put up with - but the other side is this IS actively driving people away from new vehicles in large enough numbers to boost the used and vintage markets very noticeably, and surely that's a sign that there is some hope?

            "Whatever happened to that modular phone?"

            The manufacturers figured out that they could get enough people to buy compromised crap at high profit margins and then pay again and again and again through that, and therefore have no motivation to bring anything sane to market.

            --
            If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
            • (Score: 1) by Acabatag on Sunday September 23 2018, @07:34PM

              by Acabatag (2885) on Sunday September 23 2018, @07:34PM (#738932)

              A Bell 2500 set is a modular phone. If you disassemble one, you'll find there are components with date codes going back years. When a phone was removed from service, it went back to a depot and was turned into components.

              This was even more so the case on pre-touchtone 500 sets.

            • (Score: 4, Informative) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:51PM

              by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:51PM (#738968)

              Buick Skyhawk, Chevy Monza, Pontiac Sunbird, and Olds Starfire of the '75-'80 model years were equipped with a 3.8 liter V-6 that was very large for the size of the engine compartment on these small cars. The result was that, in order to change the spark plugs on the right bank of the engine, you had to disconnect the motor mounts, attach a chain hoist, and lift the engine at least a few inches in order to be able to access those plugs.

              My '97 Camaro 3.8L is easier to do the plugs if you disconnect the exhaust manifold, or better yet replace it with a header. You can do it without but I usually end up making a blood sacrifice to the NGK gods trying to get my sausage fingers into the tiny areas the set back engine requires to access the damned plugs. The number six can't even have a proper socket wrench placed on it. You put the socket on and use a thin open ended wrench to loosen and tighten as there is less than an inch clearance between the top of the plug and steering components.

              If memory serves me I believe the old '58 'Squarebird' T-birds had the same problem with the rear two plugs being inaccessible without lifting the engine a few inches.

              Yeah, engineers don't have to work on them, and mechanics don't design them. Lot's of cars are very difficult to do routine servicing on.

              --
              Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday September 24 2018, @07:23PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday September 24 2018, @07:23PM (#739350) Journal

        New item for your list:

        4) Damage the vehicles in a way that ensures they cannot be driven, then sell them to scrap yard. Cut the B pillow that has the defective spot weld. Or even simply remove it in a way that makes this not a vehicle that anyone would want. Maybe even causing body damage in the process. Something like a giant chain saw makes two quick cuts and remove the B pillar entirely.

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:05PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:05PM (#738859)

    Don't they mean that nobody can be bothered / trusted to properly implement a procedure

    Your classic car example doesn't scale. Say you're looking at around $1M worth of vehicles that could easily cost an additional $330k in wages to part salvage. If it were your company, would you reclaim partial costs at negative profit or write down the loss?

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @05:34PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @05:34PM (#738902)

    > ...properly implement a procedure to strip down the affected areas of the vehicles, weld it up and re-assemble?

    This is not a classic car made from mild steel. B-pillars provide a large part of the strength to resist the side impact crash test, preventing intrusion into the passenger compartment. To keep them from being huge, they are made of special steel that gets its high strength from a combination of mechanical working (during stamping) and heat treating (some of which may be combined with paint baking ovens). The spot welding is done in the middle of this process, and as I understand it, the heat treating is required after the spot welding to develop/restore the correct properties (strength & ductility for crash energy absorption). These parts are highly optimized with a combination of predictive engineering tools (CAE) and actual crash testing.

    In modern cars, damage to structural areas like that are often reason to "total" a car if damaged in an accident--not repairable back to original specs. This is not to say that some sleazy body shop won't try, but the manufacturer knows better.

    • (Score: 2) by shortscreen on Sunday September 23 2018, @08:42PM (1 child)

      by shortscreen (2252) on Sunday September 23 2018, @08:42PM (#738947) Journal

      If so then it sounds like manufacturers are designing non-repairable bodies and this time they were the ones to be bit in the ass by it instead of the buyer.

      • (Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:26PM

        by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:26PM (#738956)

        Essentially that is correct. It is also the reason many cars are 'totaled' even for minor damage. You basically can't repair a crumple zone. Unibodies were always difficult to repair compared to full frame vehicles. Now any attempt to repair them likely reduces their effectiveness as a safety device even if there is no damage beyond a few missed welds. Salvaging seats, drivetrain (including wheels/tires) shouldn't be too difficult, and I don't believe they could be sold or re-used as new parts at that point, but could be sold 'used.'
        Of course the question then becomes are those parts worth enough used to cover the cost of salvaging them. Due to liability, they couldn't just send them to a salvage yard and risk even one having it's title 'cleaned' and re-sold, so they would have to either do it themselves or oversee the salvage to be sure the bodies ended up in the crusher at minimum.
        Likely a lot less expensive to just eat the cost.
        At least they didn't try to cover it up.

        --
        Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
  • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday September 24 2018, @05:58PM

    by Reziac (2489) on Monday September 24 2018, @05:58PM (#739295) Homepage

    They could, likely it's not physically all that hard, but it's a liability thing. Their corporate insurance won't cover it because now it's a "salvaged" vehicle, so if someone wrecks and that point fails (even if not due to THIS welding error) look out class-action lawsuit, probably for $NNN-millions.

    So what will really happen is they'll be shipped off to a parts recycler, which is where most of the end-of-the-line auction vehicles wind up already. The frame will probably get scrapped but everything else will be sold for parts.

    And be grateful, because in ten years that may be the source for a hard-to-find part to repair your own vehicle.

    --
    And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.