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posted by martyb on Monday October 15 2018, @05:18AM   Printer-friendly
from the perpetual-motion dept.

Think of it: The government prints more money or perhaps — god forbid — it taxes some corporate profits, then it showers the cash down on the people so they can continue to spend. As a result, more and more capital accumulates at the top. And with that capital comes more power to dictate the terms governing human existence.

UBI really just turns us from stakeholders or even citizens to mere consumers.

Meanwhile, UBI also obviates the need for people to consider true alternatives to living lives as passive consumers. Solutions like platform cooperatives, alternative currencies, favor banks, or employee-owned businesses, which actually threaten the status quo under which extractive monopolies have thrived, will seem unnecessary. Why bother signing up for the revolution if our bellies are full? Or just full enough?

Under the guise of compassion, UBI really just turns us from stakeholders or even citizens to mere consumers. Once the ability to create or exchange value is stripped from us, all we can do with every consumptive act is deliver more power to people who can finally, without any exaggeration, be called our corporate overlords.

No, income is nothing but a booby prize. If we're going to get a handout, we should demand not an allowance but assets. That's right: an ownership stake.

https://medium.com/s/powertrip/universal-basic-income-is-silicon-valleys-latest-scam-fd3e130b69a0


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  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Bobs on Monday October 15 2018, @02:01PM (14 children)

    by Bobs (1462) on Monday October 15 2018, @02:01PM (#749028)

    You seem to be missing the point of UBI: a basic income that provides the freedom/opportunity to choose how to spend your time.

    Think of the alternative options: the “welfare trap” you spoke of was because welfare is means tested and if you get a job to improve your situation, you start losing all the support - food, housing, income, that has been helping you to get by. With UBI you keep it when you take on additional work - there is no “ trap”. Those who want to work, make art, teach, start a business, whatever, have the opportunity to do so without the risk of being homeless or starving to death.

    Minimum wage jobs, can also be a trap because between the work and the commuting and the costs involved you often don’t have opportunity for much of anything else, and typically don’t make enough to get by on.

    In a few years, 70%+ of jobs will be done better, faster, cheaper and with higher quality by robots and AI. What sort of meaningful, paid work will the displaced people be able to do? Talk about despair for them. UBI gives them a choice and hope. What is the alternative for them?

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 15 2018, @02:29PM (13 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 15 2018, @02:29PM (#749047)

    Think of the alternative options: the “welfare trap” you spoke of was because welfare is means tested and if you get a job to improve your situation, you start losing all the support - food, housing, income, that has been helping you to get by. With UBI you keep it when you take on additional work - there is no “ trap”. Those who want to work, make art, teach, start a business, whatever, have the opportunity to do so without the risk of being homeless or starving to death.

    Where's the money for UBI coming from? So you think you're free to start a business with UBI and the taxes will not be so prohibitive as to have effectively landed everyone in the welfare trap? Then, as always under socialism, the mass starvations will come!

    • (Score: 2) by sjames on Monday October 15 2018, @04:07PM (12 children)

      by sjames (2882) on Monday October 15 2018, @04:07PM (#749106) Journal

      As long as the tax is less than 100% and you continue to receive UBI, you will always be better off for running your business.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 15 2018, @04:52PM (10 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 15 2018, @04:52PM (#749126)

        As long as the tax is less than 100% and you continue to receive UBI, you will always be better off for running your business.

        Yes, business is great under "not real" socialism! [spectator.co.uk]

        • (Score: 2) by sjames on Monday October 15 2018, @07:16PM (9 children)

          by sjames (2882) on Monday October 15 2018, @07:16PM (#749184) Journal

          The only person suggesting that strawman as a model for the U.S. is you.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 16 2018, @12:23AM (8 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 16 2018, @12:23AM (#749314) Journal

            As long as the tax is less than 100%

            Um, no. Someone suggested something really stupid. That tax better be a lot less than 100% or we won't see those businesses.

            • (Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday October 16 2018, @01:42AM (7 children)

              by sjames (2882) on Tuesday October 16 2018, @01:42AM (#749342) Journal

              It should be a lot less, but my criterion is a measure of the worst case.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 16 2018, @04:04AM (6 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 16 2018, @04:04AM (#749395) Journal
                If the tax is anywhere near 100%, you're not getting those businesses. Sorry, mentioning the worst case like that is not the message you might have thought you were saying.
                • (Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday October 16 2018, @06:29AM (5 children)

                  by sjames (2882) on Tuesday October 16 2018, @06:29AM (#749421) Journal

                  Why not? You're still better off for running it.

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 16 2018, @02:25PM (4 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 16 2018, @02:25PM (#749536) Journal

                    Why not? You're still better off for running it.

                    Because that's not true. If I see ten cents of every dollar my business earns, what's in it for me? Remember one of the key arguments for UBI is that it reduces the risks associated with doing something new. Well, you have to consider the other side too for a non-hobby, the reward. Greatly reducing the reward for starting a business is very similar to increasing the risk. In the above case, by reducing the reward for starting a business by an order of magnitude is similar to increasing the risk by an order of magnitude, once you get to businesses that have profit potential much larger than the UBI.

                    • (Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday October 16 2018, @03:39PM (3 children)

                      by sjames (2882) on Tuesday October 16 2018, @03:39PM (#749559) Journal

                      If that's just not enough for you, don't do it. Someone else will. You can just keep it at hobby level or choose something else. But keep in mind that if you're in that tax bracket, those dimes on the dollar are probably enough to fund a fairly lavish lifestyle and my guess is that you won't want to give it up.

                      You'll whine and moan to your butler about how "hard" life is and "threaten" to give it all up, but at the end of the day your greed will drive you to show up tomorrow and keep doing it.

                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 16 2018, @05:22PM (2 children)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 16 2018, @05:22PM (#749604) Journal

                        If that's just not enough for you, don't do it. Someone else will.

                        Why? High taxes hurt them as much as they hurt me. The sharply reduced reward still remains.

                        But keep in mind that if you're in that tax bracket, those dimes on the dollar are probably enough to fund a fairly lavish lifestyle and my guess is that you won't want to give it up.

                        Unless, of course, they don't bother because the reward isn't worth the risk.

                        Meanwhile in other countries with a much lower tax rate, new businesses will start up which routinely form zero profit subsidiaries in high tax land.

                        • (Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday October 16 2018, @05:47PM (1 child)

                          by sjames (2882) on Tuesday October 16 2018, @05:47PM (#749611) Journal

                          Khallow is threatening to take his marbles and stomp off in a huff! OH NOES! Whatever will we do?!?

                          Oh, I know: "BYE BYE! Don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you!"

                          Hint: At one point, the Beatles were paying 95% in taxes. They didn't quit.

                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 16 2018, @06:56PM

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday October 16 2018, @06:56PM (#749640) Journal

                            Hint: At one point, the Beatles were paying 95% in taxes. They didn't quit.

                            Yea, right. [reddit.com]

                            It is very hard to say since like all wealthy people they had excellent accountants who minimised their taxes as much as possible. But what the song taxman is referring to is the high marginal tax rate that Britain had at the time which was 83% on income over a certain amount. However that is not only what the song is referring to, it is mostly referring to the surtax. This tax was an additional tax on very high earners that took their highest bracket to around 95%.

                            However whilst this number seems very high by the time Taxman came out in 1966 the Beatles were no longer paying that amount. Like today capital gains were taxed at the much lower rate of 30%. So Lennon and McCartney founded Northern Songs which went on the Stockmarket and thus allowed them to avoid the high tax rate and soon after that Harrison founded Harrissongs and Starr founded Startling Music for the same purpose as well as some other reasons to better promote their songs.

                            Funny how there's always loopholes when these crazy high tax rates happen. So what appears to have happened here is that the Beatles got burned by these sky high taxes one year, took on competent tax advisors, and then only paid 30% thereafter.

                            That doesn't quite fit the narrative, does it?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 15 2018, @10:16PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 15 2018, @10:16PM (#749253)

        ^ this guy gets it