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posted by Fnord666 on Sunday October 21 2018, @04:15AM   Printer-friendly
from the not-going-postal dept.

Submitted via IRC for Bytram

Trump to pull US out of postal treaty

The US has announced plans to withdraw from a 144-year-old postal treaty, which the White House says lets China ship goods at unfairly low prices.

Under the treaty, a UN body sets lower international rates for packages from certain countries, a move originally designed to support poorer nations.

But the US says the discounts put American businesses at a disadvantage.

Officials said they hoped the notice of withdrawal would set the stage to agree a better deal.

"We're looking for a fair system," a senior administration official told reporters. "We do hope that ultimately we achieve a negotiated outcome."

The BBC's Asia business correspondent Karishma Vaswani says the move to pull out of the treaty is aimed at forcing the Chinese to give up the developing nation status they had when they first entered the pact back in 1969.

[...] The process of withdrawing from the treaty takes at least a year and the White House said it would be willing to remain in the UPU if negotiations were successful.

The US Postal Service and companies such as Amazon and FedEx have complained about the discounts for foreign shippers for many years.


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  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Spamalope on Sunday October 21 2018, @05:02AM (19 children)

    by Spamalope (5233) on Sunday October 21 2018, @05:02AM (#751568) Homepage

    And the practice where China ebay sellers ship something defective that had a sales price with shipping of $15 and demand you send it back to get a replacement. Return shipping is $45.

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  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Fnord666 on Sunday October 21 2018, @01:39PM (18 children)

    by Fnord666 (652) on Sunday October 21 2018, @01:39PM (#751643) Homepage

    And the practice where China ebay sellers ship something defective that had a sales price with shipping of $15 and demand you send it back to get a replacement. Return shipping is $45.

    There is that as well. Maybe this won't be such a bad thing.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by requerdanos on Sunday October 21 2018, @02:29PM (17 children)

      by requerdanos (5997) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 21 2018, @02:29PM (#751659) Journal

      And the practice where China ebay sellers ship something defective [cheap, with high return shipping.]

      There is that as well. Maybe this won't be such a bad thing.

      In my experience, the vast majority of things (excluding usb sticks and sd cards, 99% of which are defective fakes) I order from china are the working items that I ordered, with the exact high China quality* I expected to receive.

      I understand that China is receiving an unfair advantage here--you can get a USB audio adapter, for example, for $3 *including shipping* from China--but that example is not just China's advantage, but an advantage extended to Americans and American businesses.

      Speaking for me personally, that building-and-rebuilding computers habit gets more expensive, perhaps prohibitively so.

      Speaking of an American factory that employs American workers assembling American items that contain some Chinese-made parts, once they are "Made Great Again" from this, the factory is closed and they're out of work. Great again, but unemployed. (Carolina Example [thestate.com].)

      So there are upsides and downsides to both parties in addressing the imbalance. To do so appropriately requires a deep understanding of both the numbers and the human issues that the current U.S. leader just doesn't possess. Not saying he won't get it done, just saying don't assume his definition of "Great Again" means something good for you, your community, your country, or anyone really.

      ---
      * That is, the "Okay factory officially closed, now we get out cheap components and make our own parts for a while to sell online" quality.

      • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Sunday October 21 2018, @04:06PM (1 child)

        by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Sunday October 21 2018, @04:06PM (#751689) Homepage Journal

        Speaking for me personally, that building-and-rebuilding computers habit gets more expensive, perhaps prohibitively so.

        I used to build my own computers until laptops became cheap enough and my gaming habit faded away. At one time I think I had the world's fastest IBM XT--I'd replaced everything in it except the power supply.

        All I use a computer for these days is reading, writing, research, and graphics (and most of the reading is on a tablet). Nothing that takes much power.

        --
        mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
        • (Score: 3, Offtopic) by requerdanos on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:11PM

          by requerdanos (5997) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:11PM (#751733) Journal

          At one time I think I had the world's fastest IBM XT--I'd replaced everything in it except the power supply.

          I dunno, mine had an overclocked NEC V20 in place of an 8088.

          All I use a computer for these days is reading, writing, research, and graphics (and most of the reading is on a tablet). Nothing that takes much power.

          Unless your operation isn't going to finish because of likely-age-of-the-universe issues, nothing necessarily *takes* a lot of power. But I like to see how much bang I can get for a low amount of bucks.

          My goal is a system (note: not a remote third party) that:
          - Respects my freedom by being able to run all free software.
          - Respects my privacy by keeping my computing local to my computer/network.
          - Knows what I am going to do before I have really decided, and has it ready for me when I ask.
          - Is Fast. (cf. "Efficient".)

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by sjames on Sunday October 21 2018, @05:41PM (14 children)

        by sjames (2882) on Sunday October 21 2018, @05:41PM (#751722) Journal

        This is not that. A factory here using parts made in China probably isn't ordering the parts mail order one at a time anyway. They will be ordering thousands at a time and receiving them by freight rather than post.

        The Amazon sellers where the item is sold and shipped by someone in China will become sold by someone in China and shipped by Amazon. They'll send Amazon an assload of product as freight for consignment, just like others already do.

        The big change is that the USPS won't be forced to take a loss on every package.

        It would have been better to use pulling out as the threat in order to negotiate a different rate, but Trump isn't good at negotiation since that requires listening to someone else and at least temporarily seeing their side of things.

        • (Score: 2) by requerdanos on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:03PM (2 children)

          by requerdanos (5997) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:03PM (#751730) Journal

          This is not that. A factory here using parts made in China probably isn't ordering the parts mail order one at a time anyway.

          It's not all or nothing. Depending on the size of the factory and the volume of its various outputs, some parts will be sourced by the bargeload and some by the China Post E-Packet.

          The proportion of barge to packet will have a lot to do with how affected the hypothetical factory is, but I don't think it's right to pretend that no one will be affected just because many products are sourced by high-volume components.

          Products that are closer to "niche products" than "mass market" are an area in which American factories can try to get America back into manufacturing (because of the high cost of entry and low profit margins for manufacturing mass market goods), and those are the ones most likely to be affected.

          • (Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:19PM (1 child)

            by sjames (2882) on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:19PM (#751734) Journal

            If they're getting by on a low enough volume that they're getting parts by post, the item is either already expensive, high margin, or a small part of a larger business.

            • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Monday October 22 2018, @02:44PM

              by urza9814 (3954) on Monday October 22 2018, @02:44PM (#751983) Journal

              Yup...and in that case this could actually be beneficial for them.

              As you said, if they're getting parts by post, it's pretty low volume. If it's that low volume, it's probably not worth investing in huge amounts of automated manufacturing. There's a lot of test or scientific instrumentation like that which is still manufactured in the US. So it's massively expensive, largely due to labor costs. They've gotta be hand manufactured, and since they're low volume and high cost they're probably high precision which means you need the guy building it to actually have a clue what he's doing. And the people buying it aren't trying to cut every last cent off the cost either, they expect it to be an expensive piece of equipment.

              So suppose you're paying someone ten bucks to solder on a twenty cent part which now just became a fifty cent part. An increase of three tenths of a percent compared only to the total labor cost. Who gives a fuck?

              On the other hand, there's probably still someone in China manufacturing similar instruments, but since the completed instrument is bigger and more expensive, it costs more to ship, and that cost will probably increase by a greater amount. The only way the domestic assembler loses is if they're buying damn near every single part from China by post. Which would seem to be pretty stupid.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by jmorris on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:08PM (9 children)

          by jmorris (4844) on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:08PM (#751731)

          Gave ya "Informative for the first three paragraphs because that is identical to what I could have posted. That last one is where you fail. You just watched President Trump do the hard negotiating thing with Canada and Mexico and end up with a new trade deal that certainly benefits the U.S. but will probably benefit all three when the dust settles.

          Your confusion probably stems from hating Mr. Trump so intensely you can't see straight. But part of it is probably a result of never having seen any negotiation involing the U.S. where the U.S. side tries to drive a fair bargain, the pattern has always been to "redistribute" success away from the U.S. because.... reasons never verbalized.

          • (Score: 4, Informative) by sjames on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:34PM (8 children)

            by sjames (2882) on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:34PM (#751738) Journal

            Trump is not the shrewd businessman he paints himself as. He is only effective when he holds most of the cards. That is, the classic bully.

            That's not to say we haven't seen some bad deals made by other presidents.

            • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:49PM (7 children)

              by jmorris (4844) on Sunday October 21 2018, @06:49PM (#751741)

              Doesn't it make you wonder, if the U.S. "holds all the cards" as you say, why have we made such horrible deals for decades that an "incompetent bungler" can get such better results merely by trying?

              • (Score: 4, Interesting) by requerdanos on Sunday October 21 2018, @07:11PM (2 children)

                by requerdanos (5997) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 21 2018, @07:11PM (#751747) Journal

                if the U.S. "holds all the cards" as you say

                No one said that but you. The key point here is that for President Trump, the "art of the deal" is don't negotiate until your position is stronger, and then demand what you want, and that negotiation between relative peers who must consider each other's positions is beyond him. Everyone has what they are good at, and seeing the other guy's position just happens to not be that thing for the President. That doesn't mean there is "hatred," merely recognition of his weaknesses and his lack of enthusiasm for exposing them during negotiations.

                why have we made such horrible deals for decades that an "incompetent bungler" can get such better results merely by trying?

                That's a very good, very insightful question, whether you meant for it to be or not. Often, he who negotiates on behalf of the U.S. keeps in mind a three-ring circus of things that they want to keep intact and beneficial throughout a negotiation: Good international relations, maintaining a U.S. ethical position on areas where we as a nation take a stand, appeasing other parties so we don't look like a bully, and last and sometimes least, our own interest. That often means that even if the "soft" goals are met, the real goal of serving U.S. interests has fallen by the wayside. This has come to even be some perverse sort of point of honor.

                Trump is a direct solution to this. He doesn't give a thought to international relations, he has no ethical positions, takes no stands except transient ones during particular negotiations, is horrified by the thought of appearing to appease any other party, and is interested in looking out for his own interest.

                Where his interests and the interests of the country coincide--which frequently happens now that he's president--that serves the U.S. interests in question.

                Doesn't it make you wonder

                It certainly should! Why does it take a barking orange reality TV star to actually look out for U.S. Interests? Couldn't, you know, politicians have been doing this all along?

                This is a big part of why the President got elected over more traditional, do-nothing candidates. He doesn't have to be a genius to exercise his advantages (thank God), he only has to exercise them. Everyone involved in international politics, or voting on people who will be, should take careful note.

                • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Sunday October 21 2018, @11:16PM (1 child)

                  by jmorris (4844) on Sunday October 21 2018, @11:16PM (#751803)

                  Try to keep up, I quoted the words because I was QUOTING sjames in the parent post.

                  And yeah, negotiation is generally done by each side going into it thinking they have a bit of leverage and asking for more than they will settle for. That is why they call it a negotiation. Duh. The question is why we sucked so hard at for for the last few generations.

                  Couldn't, you know, politicians have been doing this all along?

                  This here is the very heart of it. People like myself (and perhaps you) have realized most of our problems are quite simple ones, any idiot can see both the problem and an obvious solution. What was maddening was the unseen force that kept declaring the problems to not actually be problems and the solutions entirely outside the bounds of political debate.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 22 2018, @06:22PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 22 2018, @06:22PM (#752079)

                    We're all way ahead of you, you are the regressive that needs to join modern human civilization.

              • (Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday October 21 2018, @08:37PM (3 children)

                by sjames (2882) on Sunday October 21 2018, @08:37PM (#751768) Journal

                requerdanos covered most of it, but we also have to ask, have we really gotten much in the way of results?

                • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Sunday October 21 2018, @11:23PM (2 children)

                  by jmorris (4844) on Sunday October 21 2018, @11:23PM (#751804)

                  Have we got results. Hmm. Fifty year low unemployment, stock market up, taxes and regulations down. Domestic front looks pretty good for two years in. They are digging up the minefields in Korea and planning a formal end of the Korean War, no new wars started. NAFTA renegotiated, China slapped upside the head and fully engaged with us as equals instead of our normal bending over and telling them to be gentle with our butthole... but they never were. BrExit wobbling but still on, Europe generally waking up from the nightmare before succumbing to death. So yeah, the foreign front looks pretty good too. Still no wall but that is the hill the Progs will die on, so we have to build up the political will to give them their wish.

                  Since I voted for Mr. Trump as basically the chosen form of the Destructor, grading the 2nd Season of The Trump Presidency a solid A-. Dinging for no wall, and Hillary Clinton still walking free.

                  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by sjames on Monday October 22 2018, @01:01AM (1 child)

                    by sjames (2882) on Monday October 22 2018, @01:01AM (#751836) Journal

                    Taxes down, deficit up. Unemployment following the trend left by previous administration (though it slowed down since Trump took over). New NAFTA is largely cosmetic changes over the old NAFTA. A win for Mexican unions (what benefit here?) A win for Big Pharma (no benefits for the rest of us) minor opening of dairy market in Canada (yeah, higher milk prices for us!) The Koreas are taking care of the Koreas just fine by themselves. Trump has literally nothing to do with Brexit (not sure why you care unless you just want to see others hurting).

                    The biggest "win" is that he's been totally ineffective building the wall so at least we don't have that big fat bill to pay for now (you don't REALLY think Mexico is going to pay for that, do you?) and he hasn't managed to leave millions without healthcare.

                    • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 22 2018, @07:14AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 22 2018, @07:14AM (#751892)

                      Walls are way cheaper than interstate highways. Note the interstate highways all over the country.

                      The wall is cheaper than the cost of dealing with the illegal aliens for 2 years. It thus pays for itself quickly. It would be a good investment even if we had to replace it ever 2 years.

                      The wall is pocket change for the Mexican government. They can easily afford it.

                      The wall is not even pocket change for the US government. Using appropriate units for US government finances, the wall cost rounds to $0.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by iadnah on Sunday October 21 2018, @08:39PM

          by iadnah (5968) on Sunday October 21 2018, @08:39PM (#751769)

          The Amazon sellers where the item is sold and shipped by someone in China will become sold by someone in China and shipped by Amazon. They'll send Amazon an assload of product as freight for consignment, just like others already do.

          The big change is that the USPS won't be forced to take a loss on every package.

          It would have been better to use pulling out as the threat in order to negotiate a different rate, but Trump isn't good at negotiation since that requires listening to someone else and at least temporarily seeing their side of things.

          I work for a "cross border warehousing" company, and I see this kind of thing a lot. There's an aspect I doubt many are familiar with, however.

          We see a lot of "breakbulk" shipments. This is where a 1st leg shipper collects packages in China, applies USPS labels (or maybe UPS/Fedex) and then ships them freight to the US. Once it gets here a company like mine handles the customs clearance, opens the freight, and then takes all the packages to the post office. This is a lot of your "ships in 2-4 weeks" kind of stuff.

          The thing about it is, US companies can typically only qualify for USPS Commercial Plus pricing. Think like, $2.66 for a 1oz package. The 1st leg shippers are getting prices closer to $2.00 for 1oz because of this treaty.