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from the don't-care-I'm-getting-intelligenter dept.
In November, the European TV channel Arte aired an hourlong documentary, Demain, tous crétins?—Tomorrow, everyone’s an idiot?—on a topic that would seem to be of great importance. It starts with a London-based researcher, Edward Dutton, who has documented decades-long declines in average IQs across several Western countries, including France and Germany. “We are becoming stupider,” announces Dutton at the program’s start. “This is happening. It’s not going to go away, and we have to try to think about what we’re going to do about it.”
[...] It’s wrong to hint that scores on tests of memory and abstract thinking have been falling everywhere, and in a simple way. But at least in certain countries—notably in Northern Europe—the IQ drops seem very real. Using data from Finland, for example, where men are almost always drafted into military service, whereupon they’re tested for intelligence, Dutton showed that scores began to slide in 1997, a trend that has continued ever since. Similar trends have been documented using data from Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. At some point in the mid-1990s, IQ scores in these countries tipped into decay, losing roughly one-fifth to one-quarter of a point per year. While there isn’t any sign of this effect on U.S. test results (a fact that surely bears on our indifference to the topic), researchers have found hints of something similar in Australia, France, Germany and the Netherlands.
Are we becoming dumber, as in losing cognitive function, or merely less-well read?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @09:34AM (35 children)
These are countries with absurdly low birth rates in the native populations. Every two generations, the population is cut in half.
Meanwhile, the countries are importing people from the dumbest and most violent parts of the world. For example, the typical IQ in Somalia is about 68. This brings the average down. BTW, it is taboo to discuss this in the affected countries.
Evolution is an ongoing thing, affecting every generation and building upon itself much like compounding interest. The Flynn effect is merely the removal of some IQ-affecting health problems (malnutrition, lead, etc.) and the addition of education. In the long term, evolution is the main determining factor of IQ. Compare with height: people stunted by famine may produce more-normal kids and fully-normal grandkids, but the great-grandkids and beyond will not keep getting taller without the selection process required by evolution.
Europe got smart because dumb people died, particularly in winter. These days, we don't let dumb people die. We feed them. They are thus well-suited to the current environment, so their population grows.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Pav on Wednesday October 24 2018, @10:00AM (21 children)
Not enough data [newscientist.com] to say either way, although it's suggested that some or all of the effect could be because more people 60 and over are sitting the tests. There isn't enough data to support this hypothesis either, but due to known lowering of working memory due to age it seems a resonable hypothesis.
(Score: 4, Touché) by Pav on Wednesday October 24 2018, @10:37AM (9 children)
BTW, it seems there are twice as many Asian immigrants live in Finland as Africans, and these groups combined are a pretty low proportion to start with. Aren't Asians meant to be more intelligent on average than Europens or something according to these weird theories? Shouldn't you be finding some Asian ass so you don't get completely bred out of the gene pool or something BTW?
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @02:52PM
What does "asian" mean? Afhanistan or Korea?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @03:03PM (2 children)
Asia is a huge place, only small part of Asia has the smart people (according to testing anyway). Rest has averagly to abysmally dumb, with a mix of con artists. Mixing with "smart" Asians won't make your kids smart, especially if the genes responsible for the discreprancy are recessive.
Secondly, (according to tests) even though the "smart" Asians are smarter on average, the distribution of intellect on either end is much different. So even though the average person is smarter according to current trst, the number of geniuses and idiots is much smaller. We really want the geniuses to be as high as possible, as tgey are the ones that make a lot of tge innovative leaps tgat drive the soxiety forward.
Lastly, I added the "according to tests" caveat because we are not sure if China is not cooking the numbers by allowing only testimg in select districts. This kind of fudgery could be right up their alley.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday October 24 2018, @06:29PM (1 child)
Those typos look odd. Are you using a different keyboard layout than you normally use? It just looks odd . . .
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 25 2018, @06:05AM
Mentally week: Runaway cannot be the cause of this, since he has had the same low Intelligence Quotient since he was tested in 1956. Must be his spawn, in that case.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday October 24 2018, @03:43PM (4 children)
"Live in" != "recently immigrated to". If you meant the latter, that needs to be specified, because your comparison is currently invalid.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Wednesday October 24 2018, @04:58PM (1 child)
Ummm... then I don't want to live in Finland where apparently I get roped into national service (and its requisite IQ test) without even being a citizen.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday October 24 2018, @05:33PM
S'not what I mean. I mean the way you phrased it, the Asians could have all been there for fifty years or more while the middle-eastern immigrants are mostly more recent. Not a legitimate comparison.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 25 2018, @06:45AM (1 child)
Like Tennessee, you Carpetbagging Son-of-an-anchor-Bro?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 25 2018, @10:16AM
With apologies to the late, great Johnny Cash:
I've been to,
Louisville
Nashville
Knoxville
Omerback
Shereville
Jacksonville
Waterville
Costa Rock
Richfield
Springfield
Bakersfield
Shreveport
Hakensack
Cadallic
Fond do Lac
Davenport
Idaho
Jellico
Argentina
Diamondtina
Pasadena
Catalina
See What I Mean
I've been everywhere, man
I've been everywhere, man
Crossed the deserts bare, man
I've breatherd the mountain air, man
Travel, I've had my share, man
I've been everywhere
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by driverless on Wednesday October 24 2018, @11:00AM (9 children)
There's also the third option, that we're less able to answer questions on a test that, somewhat arbitrarily, was defined to measure IQ. In other words we're not getting "dumber", we're just less able to answer the particular questions that someone decided measure your IQ.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Oakenshield on Wednesday October 24 2018, @01:26PM (8 children)
Anecdotal evidence suggests the effect is true. For instance, I had this conversation not once, not twice, but three times in the same semester with three different grad students at my university:
student: Can you install this software package in the XXX lab?
me: It's already installed and it's current
student: No it isn't. I just left that lab.
me: Yes it is. Look in the start menu and there is an icon on the desktop.
student: Sorry, but it's not. Can I install it?
me: Let me show you. (Walks to lab) See? Right there on the desktop.
student: Well it wasn't there earlier.
me: Jesus...
These are GRAD students. On the third go around, I just told number three to install it if it makes him feel better. The machines are deep frozen. There's hardly a day that goes by that I wonder how these kids made it through high school, let alone found their way to college. Around tax season, I find W-2 forms and tax returns left in the printers all the time. SMH
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @01:36PM (1 child)
Are all your grad students called Jesus, [youtube.com] or just the truly exceptional ones?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @03:18PM
Not all are called Jesus. Some are named Pablo or Miguel or even Consuela.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @02:01PM
We've been having a strong economy for 10 years. Not so many people applying to spend seven years to push out having to make a decision on what they want to do.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday October 24 2018, @07:01PM (4 children)
That conversation was matched yesterday, at work. I wasn't present, so I got it second hand.
Super: I want you to bolt this punch press to this steel table.
Worker: weld . . . weld . . . weld . . . "I'm done!"
Super: Did I tell you to weld, or to bolt, that punch press.
Worker: Oh, a weld is MUCH STRONGER!
Super: You can't make a good weld between cast iron and carbon steel UNLESS you use an oven to control the temperatures.
Worker: If the weld doesn't hold, I'll fix it.
Roughly two hours later
Super: I need you to BOLT that punch press to the table. Your weld broke already.
Worker: Alright . . . weld . . . weld . . . weld
Super: WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!?!
Worker: I'm fixing my weld.
Super: You can't DO THAT!
Worker: Yeah, I know, but look at the clock, I have to go home!
about six hours later
Super2: Maintenance, I need you to look at the punch press at machine 11. The weld is cracking, and the press moves around on the table.
Maintenance: I'll get to it in a little bit.
about four hours later
Maintenance2nd: Super2 wanted me to look at the punch press at machine 11, but I just never got around to it. Can you do something with it?
Maintenance3rd: Yeah - no problem - uhhhhh - WTF welded cast iron to a steel table?
Maintenance2nd: name - he's such a dumb shit - I get tired of cleaning up behind him because he's too stupid or too lazy to do it right the first time.
Maintenance3rd: drill drill drill - for almost two hours
If the original worker had done what he was told, the drilling would have been done in ten minutes, using a magnetic drill. Can't set the mag drill on the same table occupied by a punch press, and a bunch of ragged welding, so Maintenance3rd is using a hand drill to drill through 3/8 plate.
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Thursday October 25 2018, @12:19AM (1 child)
Jesus...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday October 25 2018, @12:37AM
Jesus hasn't worked here for about six years now.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 25 2018, @06:51AM (1 child)
I would fire your ass so quick, Runaway. You are allegedly making decisions above your pay grade! Did you not learn about this in the Navy? Thinking you know more than those who know more than you results in Fox News, and General Quarters. Fraud. Now I know you do not know how to weld, and especially you do not know how to bolt. You're Fired, and not just from your job, but from SoylentNews, because we cannot have someone so ignorant being our public face, unless it is TMB, who also does not know how to weld, or bold. He can only hack.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday October 25 2018, @01:44PM
You poor fool. Keep trying.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @11:09AM
It's present in conscripts in Finland so we have a control for that and it's still showing in the affirmative.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @11:11AM (8 children)
"A rough estimate shows that close to half of all Muslims in the world are inbred: In Pakistan, 70 percent of all marriages are between first cousins (so-called "consanguinity") and in Turkey the amount is between 25-30 percent.[11]
Statistical research on Arabic countries shows that up to 34 percent of all marriages in Algiers are consanguine (blood related), 46 percent in Bahrain, 33 percent in Egypt, 80 percent in Nubia (southern area in Egypt), 60 percent in Iraq, 64 percent in Jordan, 64 percent in Kuwait, 42 percent in Lebanon, 48 percent in Libya, 47 percent in Mauritania, 54 percent in Qatar, 67 percent in Saudi Arabia, 63 percent in Sudan, 40 percent in Syria, 39 percent in Tunisia, 54 percent in the United Arabic Emirates and 45 percent in Yemen"
The British geneticist, Professor Steve Jones, giving The John Maddox Lecture at the 2011 Hay Festival had stated in relation to Muslim inbreeding, "It is common in the Islamic world to marry your brother’s daughter, which is actually [genetically] closer than marrying your cousin."
(Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @02:10PM (5 children)
How about Jews in Israel? How many of them are "inbred"?
Anyway, marriage among cousins is legal in much of the US.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @03:13PM
That 'splains a lot.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday October 24 2018, @06:36PM (3 children)
Don't know why you were modded "informative", when you ask such a silly question. No, Jews aren't very inbred. In fact, there have been discussions in which it is claimed that today's Jews have little direct relationship to historic Jews. Today's Jews have been Europeanized a lot. In Israel, there are Jews with English blood, French, Italian, Spanish - the list goes on and on. Israel is probably on par with the US for genetic diversity.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @06:52PM (1 child)
Which is why a boatload of genetic diseases frequently targets Jewish communities.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday October 24 2018, @07:03PM
Yeah - probably picked up a bunch of diseases while inbreeding with Euros.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 25 2018, @06:55AM
Runaway does not know why. Paint me surprised, not. What a Maroon! .
(Score: 3, Informative) by Arik on Wednesday October 24 2018, @04:30PM
In the 'golden age' of the ancient world, an even closer form of marriage was practiced particularly by royalty - marriage of half-siblings. No joke.
Why? A couple of reasons are obvious - availability and inheritance.
Availability is a major consideration for all pre-modern societies and even still today. If you live in a small village in an area dotted with them (or if you're a hunter gatherer no less so) there just aren't that many people you could match with to begin with, and in those settings there's just a much better chance that many of those people are 'cousins.'
And that's as good a point as any to insert one of the non-obvious reasons. Because we use the word 'cousin' ambiguously in English. While the word may have originally meant only one's mother's sister's son, it's sometimes used extremely broadly in English - c.f. 'my second cousin twice removed.' By that broader definition large numbers of people in EVERY traditional society marries their cousin. By the stricter definition; the son or daughter of an aunt or uncle, far fewer.
On to inheritance. There are obvious advantages if you've ever tried to divide up family farmland into smaller and smaller plots as grandchildren are born. If your parents are cousins you stand to inherit multiple shares from your grandparents, countering this trend. That's a simple and neat explanation for why consanguine marriage was particularly favored in the middle east, the cradle of agriculture.
If you read the Bible you'll find that the early patriarchs commonly married close relations, and if you read the cuneiform tablets you'll find the same of their contemporaries across the region. Later on the priests and scribes added prohibitions on marrying the closest sorts of kin - as well as certain non-blood related in-laws. Both Christianity and Islam carried on the basic framework, changing it a little here and there, but essentially intact. And cousin marriage flourished under all of them, perhaps because it was the nearest relation still allowed to marry.
And that *might* be why we seem to have expanded the word 'cousin' to include more distant kin about the same time we quit marrying "full" or proper cousins to each other legally, in certain states at least. It's only banned in less than half of US states to this day.
We think of it as something 'they' do but it was common and unremarkable in this country until well into the 19th century as well.
The genetic risk was dramatically exaggerated by certain 19th century 'public health' writers and it's now socially unacceptable even where it's legal, but in reality the risk is pretty small - UNLESS you're talking about super-cousins, which unfortunately you often are in the middle east. And by that I mean, cousins whose family trees are roughly 30%+ cousin marriage all the way back to ancient times, in which case the recommendation to avoid it would probably be a very wise one.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Thursday October 25 2018, @04:41AM
And just this week I saw a stat from the British medical system to the effect that 1 in 6 kids from these inbred "Asian" (Middle-Eastern) parents has serious medical issues. The effect might be trivial from occasional inbreeding, but from 1500 years or more of concentrated inbreeding? Well, as you see.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @05:45PM
i think it's probably also this "international modern culture"/psyop spoon fed to children in developed nations since birth. never mind the chemical warfare imposed on them. lazy, entitled, fat, brainwashed, dependent, poisoned, brain damaged, etc. would we expect these poor bastards IQ to be going up? more and more can't even use the bathroom without a diaper. but hey, have your baby at the slave warehouse so they can get their bioweapons shot into their brain and cancer into their blood. send them off to slave training centers from the time they are 4-18 while you go earn fake money to buy plastic from china. i'm sure everything will be fine.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @06:26PM
Gotta love the smell of racism and eugenics in the morning. What a pile of shit with no evidence to back it up, the same shit racists have been saying since the dawn of civilization.
Taboo to discuss these things? No, just most rational people dismiss such dumb ideas and judge the people stating such things as hateful bigots. I know that will trigger you since you think you're just "telling it like it is" but please get the evidence before you start spreading the kind of shit that gave rise to the Nazis. Yes I'll Godwin the fuck out of that because it is incredibly relevant. Devalue human life and attach a group label and you pave the way for genocide.
"Europe got smart because dumb people died, particularly in winter."
How fucking dumb are YOU? Dumb people died? No jackass, POOR people died. Maybe that is your entire point? You want to reconnect poor == dumb so its ok to treat them badly? You're a racist shit hiding behind "reason".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @06:32PM
So edgy. But the next part was edgier:
So edgy that if you were going for a racialist interpretation, you just provided a reason that low IQ in Somalia may not have to do with race.
Then you provided a reason not to worry about immigration from Somalia on account of IQ.
So edgy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 24 2018, @08:31PM
Your post sounds like it was written by a dumb person.