SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
France's Macron Calls for Creating a 'European Army'
French President Emmanuel Macron called for the creation of a "true European army," issuing a sharp critique of trans-Atlantic security ties days before U.S. President Trump is due to visit France.
Europe's security ties with the U.S., which have been a bedrock of the continent's stability for decades, have come under strain as Mr. Trump has demanded more military spending from European members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and questioned the alliance's benefits for the U.S. Such tensions have led Mr. Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel to publicly question whether the continent can still rely on the U.S. to come to Europe's defense.
Mr. Macron went a step further by grouping the U.S. among foreign powers he considers a potential threat to the continent. "We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America," Mr. Macron said on French radio.
Mr. Macron made the remarks as part of a weeklong tour of World War I battlefields ahead of the centenary of the Nov. 11 Armistice, when the French leader is due to host Mr. Trump, Vladimir Putin of Russia and many other heads of state.
Also at Newsweek.
Emmanuel Macron: Six held in 'attack' plot against French president
Six people have been arrested in France on suspicion of planning to carry out a "violent" attack on President Emmanuel Macron, officials say. The individuals, reported to be five men and a woman, were picked up by the French security services in Brittany, north-east and south-east France.
An investigation is now taking place into a "criminal terrorist association", a judicial source said. Details of the suspects and the alleged plot have not yet been released.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Nuke on Wednesday November 07 2018, @10:45AM (24 children)
If there is a way to break up the EU, this is it.
The member states will never agree its terms of reference, and will never agree to involve it in any action. Moreover, the major military force of the UK won't be in it. The EU has allowed itself to be invaded by Muslims, so what is the point of an army anyway? Europe might as well have rolled over in the 17th century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna [wikipedia.org]
What is wrong with continuing with NATO? Even if the USA withdraws from it, or cuts its NATA budget (it has been reducing its share already before Trump) it still remains better than a EU force.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @10:52AM (3 children)
Wow, not sure where to begin with this troll. So better not. Go back to kissing puttin's ass.
(Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @12:39PM (2 children)
Trollish, maybe, but he has a couple of points..
This statement isn't trolling, the geopolitical aims of the EU != the geopolitical aims of France != Those of Germany != Those of Italy != Those of Spain etc etc. (as a trite example, the only way you'll get the Greeks to participate fully is if the first action of the EU Army would be to go stomp Turkey, which would annoy the Germans..).
Not that that actually matters, the French have more trigger happy goons than the UK to deploy, and also have the requisite nuclear toys to be the backbone of any EU force. The Germans might not like that though, as they might suspect the French of still harbouring a wee bit of resentment over their inconvenient past extra-territorial wanderjahre..
Ok, trollish, but essentially true. There are parts of the UK where a white face is not welcome, and this is a purely religious thing, rather than race. I've lived and worked in areas of London with a large Yardie [wikipedia.org] presence and I had no trouble walking back to the flat I stayed in at 2:00~3:00am, I've spent some time in 'Muslim' areas in the Midlands and Northern England during the day...not a nice atmosphere and I couldn't wait to get away from there, there's parts of Glasgow that are now the same (Btw, have a number of Muslim friends, mostly from Algeria and Indonesia so don't get the idea I'm anti-Muslim, I've no time for religion in general and I don't care what particular flavour people follow, I don't judge them on that). There's a bunch of 'diversity' momsers who keep coming out with 'we (whites) created these ghettos, if only we'd integrated them better into our society', obviously having never spent any fucking time actually watching them create these 'ghettos' themselves as they regard 'our society' as essentially 'haram'.
Trollish, I suppose, as being a member of a club where the US calls the shots doesn't fit in with the emerging EU realpolitik
move over there at Putin's buttocks Nuke, I suppose I'll have to join you..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @01:57PM (1 child)
Except it wasn't. And if you looked at Syrians, they are, you know, normal people unlike the Wahhabi extremists Saudis are exporting worldwide (see Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc).
Who cares? UK was the major reason for NOT having EU military force because they never wanted to integrate. Brexit allows better integration. I'm sure Lithuania would love to see its territory being defended by EU army, not some coalition that can do whatever is in their own nation's interest anyway.
Sure they'll agree. They'll agree on same terms like NATO. Except that EU army would need to be under command of EC, not national forces.
United States of Europe - that's what we need. And similar army structures, where you have main EU army and the member states only have local militia to deal with local problems, but not things like invading your member states. EU army needs to be guarantor of stability on the continent.
I guess better than Trump sucking at the front
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @04:10PM
Uhm.. what we need is to take a fucking chill pill and ideally replace the EU with a bulletin board.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @12:20PM (19 children)
There are things wrong with continuing with NATO, but if some frog thinks it would be better with French and Germany calling the shots then i don't know what the hell he is thinking.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday November 07 2018, @01:00PM (18 children)
What he's thinking is blindingly obvious: He no longer sees the USA as a reliable ally, probably because the leader of the USA comes off as a bit crazy, stupid, and remarkably friendly with enemies of his country. Based on that, he wants a Plan B in case the Yanks are completely unable or unwilling to do anything to protect his country.
It sounds pretty rational to me, and at worst will mean that the Russians will have to give up any dreams of re-conquering eastern Europe even if the US is totally cool with it.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @01:14PM
Nah. It's a scared young Frenchman trying to look tough in the wake of the assassination plot against him.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @02:00PM
Exactly! Just look at the last election - still large support for the Idiot in Chief.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday November 07 2018, @02:08PM (10 children)
They didn't seem to have a problem with George W. Bush, who comprised those qualities also.
I think they're mad Trump has demanded they pull their weight with NATO's funding. Building their own EU force, however, will cost a lot more than ponying up for NATO and will create confusion in lines of command and rules of engagement.
And who leads the EU force? Will Germany call the shots? Will the rest of the EU member states be OK with that? Or do they have a junta that will have to unanimously agree to take action every time action is required?
There's no question that Europe has the resources and technical know-how to create a first-rate military, but it's all that other stuff that will get in the way of its effective use.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @04:30PM
I'm sure we already have a first rate military. Post the enemy on the bulletin board and planes will take off from all European countries. I think we should have went with another plane than Joint Strike Fighter. The Swedish Gripen was cheaper and better (it works).
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday November 07 2018, @06:01PM (5 children)
The EU's major military threat is the Russians. Trump is very friendly with the Russkies, George W Bush was not. Hence it's perfectly reasonable for the EU to consider Trump less reliable than Bush as far as coming to their aid should trouble start.
By the numbers, on paper, the Europeans have what it takes to beat the Russians in a conventional war, and put up one hell of a fight if it came to trading ICBMs, especially if the Brits help out. As for coordinating the EU forces, the EU has a Military Committee, led by a 4-star general selected by the heads of the militaries of all the member nations, and they've done some joint EU military actions in Africa so they aren't completely inexperienced.
Of the nations of the EU, France is the heaviest hitter militarily, with the world's third-largest nuclear force, the EU's largest air force, hundreds of helicopters, hundreds of tanks, thousands of other armored vehicles, the largest navy that's not about to Brexit, and more military personnel (210K) than other EU nations. They also generally build their own equipment, and supply a bunch of the other EU nations with materiel. That makes Macron the right person to say this kind of stuff.
My expectation of what would happen if the Russians decided to really push a conventional attack westwards, and the US and UK basically said "screw this, we're out": Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine, and Belarus would be occupied very quickly. The main defense of Scandanavia would be the Russians sending more of their stuff south rather than going after them: The Finns are probably in trouble, Sweden's not much better off, and if those two are done so is Norway. I'd expect the defense that would really begin to slow them down to be in Poland and Romania, with substantial help from Greece, who between the 3 of them have 300K troops and a good supply of modern arms for their armies. Slovakia and Hungary are probably saved by the Polish and Romanian efforts on either side of their lines. The biggest players (Germany, France, Italy, Spain) would be able to organize behind that and stabilize the main continental front completely no further west than the old Iron Curtain defense lines (which conveniently means the Swiss can continue to be neutral throughout all this). At which point, the Russians would attempt to solidify their gains by threatening nukes if anybody tries to counter-attack, and we're into Cold War 2.0.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @06:50PM
You could say they already invaded Europe. 77% of the Russian population is living in Europe (25% of Russian soil). We're not enemies.
yah европеец
(Score: 4, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday November 07 2018, @11:03PM (3 children)
Today's Russia has a population of 144 million. The EU has a population of 513 million. The average life expectancy of a Russian man is 66 years. In the EU it's 79 years. The GDP of Russia is $1.58 trillion dollars. The GDP of the EU is $17.28 trillion.
In short, Russia is not the threat to the EU that the Soviet Union was to Western Europe in the Cold War.
Also, George W Bush was reasonably friendly with Russia. During the eastern expansion of NATO that brought in the Baltics Russia became a partner (I forget the exact designation) of the alliance. That was when Yeltsin was around. Putin was the one that eventually ended that relationship and took a stronger stance against NATO. Obama was pretty friendly with the Russians also; there was a PR event in which Secretary of State Hillary Clinton hit a giant restart button to signal a fresh, warmer relationship with Russia under Putin.
There's an additional dimension to current European security: energy. With Germany, Denmark, and other EU states rapidly moving to renewables dependence upon Russian oil and natural gas is waning, too.
So in actual military, security terms, the EU's in pretty good shape. There is no pressing need to form an EU army.
Some people think that 10 million refugees from Syria and North Africa represent a fundamental threat to European security and identity, but I don't. Those refugees are vastly, vastly outnumbered. Even if all of them turned out to be murderous terrorists Europeans could quickly squash them like bugs and kick them out. It's just not even a contest.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @11:35PM (1 child)
Worlds population is afraid that either country push the button and start nuclear holocaust. She push a big fat red button. That's a brilliant morbid joke.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday November 11 2018, @03:41AM
If I remember correctly, the diplomatic stunt was a spoof of this device:
https://www.staples.com/Easy-Button/cat_CL163314 [staples.com]
As for the "reset":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_reset [wikipedia.org]
Classic.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by Lester on Thursday November 08 2018, @11:00AM
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday November 08 2018, @02:04AM (2 children)
> They didn't seem to have a problem with George W. Bush, who comprised those qualities also.
[blink]
[blink]
Did you forget your appointment to talk to your doctor about your memory ?
Let me give you a hint: "Freedom Fries".
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday November 08 2018, @02:55PM (1 child)
Ahem, it is you who ought to have your memory checked. You're talking about France opting out of the "coalition of the willing." Also, that was the invasion of Iraq. Our allies were happy to go after the Taliban before then, because America had just been attacked and we were still the good guys at that moment.
Nobody in Europe was talking about an EU army then, despite the absurdity of the invasion of Iraq.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday November 08 2018, @05:14PM
You are perfectly correct, while not answering what I said.
I was commenting on "not having a problem with [W]".
"opting out of the coalition of the willing", including record-setting street demonstrations, is sadly only a small part of having a problem with W.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 07 2018, @05:43PM
I think he just wants every other country to defend France from being taken over again and again and again.
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday November 07 2018, @06:17PM (2 children)
Historically, France is the friendliest western state to Russia along with Germany. That's because they tried to invade Russia already and remember the consequences. Especially French that is where the most popular dining out is bistro (means quickly in Russian). That's what Russian solders screamed in Paris - food and whores, bistro, frogs.
So, the reason he wants European army is to detach from the US psychopathic policy and to prevent WWIII inside Europe.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday November 07 2018, @11:06PM (1 child)
I think he's just mad that Trump is asking him to pony up more money for defense instead of spending it on national healthcare, free university education, and programs like that. But it really is cutting your nose off to spite your face to think that the answer to spending more money on your military is to throw a tantrum and wind up paying even more money for your military than it would take for NATO, because you want to have an EU army.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by legont on Thursday November 08 2018, @12:41AM
Perhaps, but the key here would be to give that extra military spendings to French industry or at least to EU industry.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 08 2018, @07:03PM
It isn't like the US was unsupportive of France in the first two World Wars...
Oh, wait, I guess it kind of is like that.