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posted by mrpg on Friday November 16 2018, @02:15AM   Printer-friendly
from the not-so-many-men-are-having-children-either dept.

'Remarkable' decline in fertility rates

There has been a remarkable global decline in the number of children women are having, say researchers.

Their report found fertility rate falls meant nearly half of countries were now facing a "baby bust" - meaning there are insufficient children to maintain their population size.

The researchers said the findings were a "huge surprise".

And there would be profound consequences for societies with "more grandparents than grandchildren".


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  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:40AM (36 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:40AM (#762480)

    There is something to what you say here.
    I am all for equality, to even the odds, to see everyone as a human, but yes something isn't quite right.
    When men can't be men, how can women expect them to do their duty as men? I have experienced this myself. "I don't need you" says everything. Yet, she still wants me around, still wants my wage, still somehow expects children.

    Perhaps the women who take that path need to accept that as a bachelor you do not have your own family.

    When sex is freely available does marriage have any real benefit other than having sex with the same person?

    When love comes down to how big your bank account is then is it so awful that people protect themselves.

    Women haven't truly "won" yet. This isn't about winning. It's about being on top. Let's hope that everyone comes out on top when the dust settles.

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  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday November 16 2018, @04:57AM (35 children)

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday November 16 2018, @04:57AM (#762538) Journal

    Please define what "being men" means and what this supposed duty is. I don't exactly have a dog in this fight for obvious reasons, but I'm going to point out *again* that nearly everything men suffer is caused by *other men,* NOT women. That said, it sounds like "she" needs to pull her head out of her ass..

    --
    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @07:23AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @07:23AM (#762581)

      Please define what "being men" means and what this supposed duty is

      He makes it quite clear, it is about paying for sex. His name is "John".

      When sex is freely available does marriage have any real benefit other than having sex with the same person?

      When love comes down to how big your bank account is then is it so awful that people protect themselves.

      I cannot understand how these self-involved incels can be so self-involved and not understand how no one wants to be around their selfish selfs. Hoes before tillage, I always say! You can tell he is not married, because he thinks marriage is about sex. Not a man, a boy, probably a "Proud Boy". He will die alone, with his big bank account.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @07:40AM (18 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @07:40AM (#762583)

      In general it means being able to take pride in yourself in your ability to protect and provide for those who need you. When those people no longer need you, constantly point out that you're mostly worthless, and also expect you to be their emotional dumping ground while you don't also have the same release vales, well that makes life looks more worthless and hopeless every year.

      Add to that:
      * Being worried about having sex with someone then them calling it rape afterwards.
      * Having no say in the outcome if your birth control fails thus risking a large part of your life.
      * Wondering if she just faked everything so you'd go away.
      * Being required to take nearly all the risks in dating.
      ** Saying hi to the wrong person or in the wrong way gets you labeled as a sexual predator.
      ** Being expected to peruse and win the love of your mate without crossing the line into being a creep. Talk with a lot of couples and you'll often her stories similar to "Well I thought he was disgusting at first but by the 5th try I gave in and it's been wonderful every since!"
      * Any interactions with kids are closely watched for anything which can be used to beat you evil man down.
      * Society still thinks men should be raped in prison.
      * Ball crushing is one of the earliest jokes taught to kids. Nearly all kids shows and movies demonstrate how funny it is to injure males.
      * The sexual torture and abuse of male babies is still common place, somewhere around 45-52% last time I checked. There's a common stat that 1/3 of females are sexually abused. For males it's currently 3/4 in USA, but no one talks about that (or prostate cancer which is worse than breast cancer).
      ** Women use cream made party from foreskins to help reduce wrinkles. Knowing people cut you up as a kid (without using pain killers) so they could try to make themselves look younger and still fight to maintain the practice helps kill your hope for the future.
      * Having too much energy in school gets you labeled with a medical disorder and drugged so you'll behave more like a good little girl rather than as a boy.
      Ok I've started to drift off topic...

      Frankly, if you're slightly risk aware and/or have some social awkwardness, it feels dangerous to interact with kids and females. If you don't overcome that by your early 20s you're lost for life. Grown men don't form new social groups nor become good friends and the longer you go without them the more socially awkward you become. Would you date someone who said he had no friends? Once you fall into a pit like that you can't get out unless someone pulls you out. Social support for men is nearly nonexistent. We don't get free housing and nobody comes to defend us. If you end up on the street it's because you deserve it and belong there.

      Women have some similar issues, but they aren't as bad. Being a slut is nothing compared to being a creep. They of course have other issues too, but we're focused on men here.

      It doesn't matter if males or females are causing the issues. The issues exist, the source of the issue shouldn't dictate if it should be worked on or not. The population is over 50% female, so one could argue all problems are because of women since they haven't banded together to vote for all the solutions. The women can always outvote the men. Blaming everything on females is bullshit, just like blaming it all on males is bullshit too.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @08:19AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @08:19AM (#762593)

        Ok I've started to drift off topic...

        Dude, you got issues. Seek professional help.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @11:00PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @11:00PM (#763241)

          You shouldn't have been modded a troll, you are right, and I am planning to get help to improve my social skills. Providing 'hard love' advice isn't trolling.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @09:06AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @09:06AM (#762611)

        Let's not forget that having "Men" and "Right" right next to each other gets you banded together with racists and/or whoever is the most evil thing right now, and the likes of Azuma participate in this on a personal level.

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @10:02AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @10:02AM (#762630)

          Let's not forget that having "Men" and "Right" right next to each other gets you banded together

          Don't you just hate it when that happens? I mean, you form some nice movement complaining about women, Muslin, and minorities, and they call you some kind of "Men's Rights Assholenation." It's not right that straight, white, Christian males should be judged by what they think and say. The world is just too cruel! This is why I am starting a new movement, based on information from Q-Anon and Gab: The Alt-male Alt-right All-white Movement, the AAAM, or just "AA Ma'am", for short, and for if your mom wants to know what meeting you are going to.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:06PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:06PM (#762691)

        In general it means being able to take pride in yourself in your ability to protect and provide for those who need you. When those people no longer need you, constantly point out that you're mostly worthless, and also expect you to be their emotional dumping ground while you don't also have the same release vales, well that makes life looks more worthless and hopeless every year.

        I was going to reply, but this nails it. Men want to be needed, to be useful. When you are constantly told that you are useless you start to wonder why you bother.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:40PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:40PM (#762698)

        In general it means being able to take pride in yourself in your ability to protect and provide for those who need you.

        And who bestowed this "duty" upon men? What happens if you do not fulfill it, or even desire to?

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @05:13PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @05:13PM (#762743)

          And who bestowed this "duty" upon men?

          Does it have to be a "who" at all? If so, then God. For the rest of us, evolution did that. The feeling of duty is in our DNA. For the past million years or so, men without this sense of duty were less likely to leave surviving offspring. These men would be less often chosen by women, and their children were more likely to die of conflict and starvation.

          What happens if you do not fulfill it, or even desire to?

          Well, you are broken. Lots of people have mal-adapted DNA, so you aren't alone. Some people have bad joints. Some people are dumb. Some people are more cancer-prone. Some people hallucinate. Some people have kidneys that don't last. Some people get seizures. Some people go blind. Some people... do not feel a duty to protect and provide, or even to have sex. Being broken is common. Evolution quickly eliminates the worst, and slowly eliminates the minor problems, while new defects randomly appear. Most of us are thus slightly broken, and a few of us are severely broken.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @12:15PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @12:15PM (#763061)

            Stop upmodding this pseudoscientific junk.

            For the rest of us, evolution did that.

            Evolution is not an entity, as you said yourself. It does not bestow duties upon people. It is a phenomenon. Using the word "duty" here is nonsensical.

            The feeling of duty is in our DNA.

            Having a "feeling of duty" isn't the same as actually having a duty.

            Well, you are broken.

            Who decided that and why are they correct? And don't say "evolution," because that leads you to the exact same problem described above.

            Some people have bad joints. Some people are dumb. Some people are more cancer-prone. Some people hallucinate. Some people have kidneys that don't last. Some people get seizures. Some people go blind. Some people... do not feel a duty to protect and provide, or even to have sex. Being broken is common.

            Why do you get to decide what qualifies as "broken"? That is highly subjective. I would say that being childfree is not like any of those things, and is a lifestyle choice that is almost always immensely beneficial to the individual.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by fritsd on Friday November 16 2018, @05:25PM

          by fritsd (4586) on Friday November 16 2018, @05:25PM (#762749) Journal

          What happens if you do not fulfill it, or even desire to?

          I think you'd be a LOT happier :-)

          Unfortunately I don't know what a man has to do to change that moral viewpoint.
          Maybe it's a bit lame, but I have no better ideas than to tell to the OP, try start from this and see if it helps:

          1. You are a person (that's a much more neutral term than "man". "man" comes with expectations that you may need to shed some of)
          2. You have the right to exist, and an intrinsic value (if you're religious you may pick up pope Francis' encyclical "laudato si" about this topic, however he states very oldfashionedly that you have to work)
          3. You can never do more than your best, but you've got to do your best (wisdom from my parents)
          4. Different cultures attach different values to those skills you mentioned "ability to protect" and "provide for those who need you", for men.
          5. If your (sub-)culture is toxic, try to leave it for a better one. There's plenty in the world.

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @05:52PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @05:52PM (#762760)

          Then you get no nookie, your parents get no grandchildren, and somebody labels you a homo or an incel.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @12:09PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @12:09PM (#763059)

            Then you get no nookie

            Putting aside that some people are asexuals, this just isn't true. What about similarly childfree women/men? What about casual relationships?

            your parents get no grandchildren

            You don't owe them grandchildren. They can go adopt some children if they want some so badly. But no, they just want to pressure someone else into sacrificing their time, money, freedom, and health on having children while they just get to enjoy spending time with said children occasionally.

            and somebody labels you a homo or an incel.

            I don't know how they'd reach either conclusion, and I don't know why anyone would care.

      • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @05:27PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @05:27PM (#762750)

        Whaaa, whaaa. Quit your whinging and man up. You sound weak and pathetic to me. Real men don't cry, they suck it up and get it done. Aren't there any real men left in the world?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @01:46AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @01:46AM (#762920)

          There are absolutely no real men here. The sting of truth makes the crybabies bury your comment.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @03:02AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @03:02AM (#762929)

          This is why men are dying in Australia. They have sucked it up. They are outwardly showing to the world that they are strong. They are getting the job done.
          Until they can't.
          Then they die, usually by their own hand.

          https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/09/highest-australian-suicide-rate-in-13-years-driven-by-men-aged-40-to-44 [theguardian.com]

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Friday November 16 2018, @06:25PM (2 children)

        by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday November 16 2018, @06:25PM (#762784) Journal

        Your post is heavily tainted by bitterness, but you're not wrong. I'd add another point to the list: men's lives are intrinsically worth less than women's, because on sinking ships it's women and children first, and when the enemy invades it's men who are expected to lay down their lives for everyone else. Me, I wouldn't hesitate to do either of those things because that is how I was raised (by a single mother). But those cultural assumptions remain while the positive places for men have been taken away. Honor and integrity and such values aren't much talked about anymore.

        A few extremists have succeeded in doing all those things.

        I know as a result men are miserable. They have few remaining rights when it comes to family law or workplace law; they are guilty until proven innocent. I can't say if women are more or less happy than before, but if all the men are miserable then how happy can they really be? Does having a bigger title or larger paycheck outweigh the men around you committing suicide or sinking into self-destructive behavior?

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @02:57AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @02:57AM (#762928)

          men's lives are intrinsically worth less than women's

          As my animal behavior prof said repeatedly and the single buck in our herd of goats shows each mating season, "Sperm is cheap."

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @03:31AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @03:31AM (#762939)

            Sperm is cheap

            Unless going the IVR route and even then you might get the wrong sperm. [theguardian.com]

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Friday November 16 2018, @06:38PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday November 16 2018, @06:38PM (#762797) Journal

        In general it means being able to take pride in yourself in your ability to protect and provide for those who need you.

        I am a man and I take pride in those things.

        Have you considered that maybe it's your own victimhood mentality that's preventing you from doing the same?

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @09:28AM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @09:28AM (#762616)

      Please define what "being men" means and what this supposed duty is.

      Filial duty to raise the next generation? Aren't you Asian? Even if you're playing lefty on the wrong team, shouldn't this still pop to mind as soon as fertility and duty are used in the same sentence?

      but I'm going to point out *again* that nearly everything men suffer is caused by *other men,* NOT women.

      Sounds like what jmorris been saying to defend police officers shooting down black men by pointing out it's gang violence taking most black lives while conveniently ignoring the drug prohibition, racial discrimination and economic conditions (and who is behind them).

      Look, obviously women aren't to blame here. But there's little denying when you don't spread benefits equally between genders, the social economic disparity prevents the creation of families since no one wants to marry beneath themselves. And when you look at who championed those discriminatory benefits, you'll find female feminists behind each one. Of course, that's as valuable as saying you can find humans behind each murder... That is, it's not a valuable distinction. But it's not a wrong one either.

      Setting blame aside, someone fucked up their social experiment and produced an unsustainable economic model where males work in low-income jobs full time + over time while women part/full time at medium income jobs while raising the kids. It works on paper. But human nature just doesn't work like that. Women feel they're losing out so they work harder to earn more and climb up the social ladder, only to discover there are no men waiting for them in the mid-high income grades. So they end up alone. Possibly with a couple of cats and an expired gym card membership. And now the low-income jobs are being automated out of existence leaving many men unemployed and many women even more unwilling to marry low-income workers since they fear for their economic prospects.

      This doesn't work for women. This doesn't work for men. It definitely doesn't work for the next generation. You can't change human nature. You can't lower women's income or raise male's income since that's market forces. We don't want polygamy since that will hurt everyone. That only leaves benefits and family court rights. Specifically the traditional affirmative actions favoring women in matters of alimony, and yes, children custodies. And honestly even that won't be enough.

      Feel free to interject with something constructive. Just avoid the "it's actually a good thing since we have too many people on the globe already" point. While I happen to agree, most folks do seem to need companionship of the opposite sex and when two people of similar status pair up, children almost always follow. And yes. It's almost always women who push for them. Don't ask me why... That's your department.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:46PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:46PM (#762702)

        Filial duty to raise the next generation?

        I don't have any such duty, and nor do I have a desire to have children. I enjoy my time, money, freedom, hobbies, and property, thank you. Same goes for a lot of other people who realized that breeding isn't all it is cracked up to be.

        • (Score: 4, Touché) by Phoenix666 on Friday November 16 2018, @06:28PM (1 child)

          by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday November 16 2018, @06:28PM (#762787) Journal

          I enjoy my time, money, freedom, hobbies, and property, thank you. Same goes for a lot of other people who realized that breeding isn't all it is cracked up to be.

          Neither are money, hobbies, and property all they're cracked up to be. None of those things loves you back.

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @12:26PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @12:26PM (#763065)

            Neither are money, hobbies, and property all they're cracked up to be.

            Maybe not to some people, but it is nice to achieve financial independence and not have to slave away for corporations until old age. That is a lot easier to do without children. Surely, not having to stress about being able to pay bills has a positive effect on one's happiness.

            None of those things loves you back.

            Some people don't desire that anyway. Not only that, but if you have a significant other, they can love you back. And, of course, children aren't guaranteed to love you back or take care of you when you get older, as the massive amount of old people in nursing homes whose children almost never visit them demonstrates.

            Oh, and by the way, having children places more stress on a relationship and thus makes it more likely to break down. Not to mention that there's a very long list of negative side effects that a woman can encounter during pregnancy and childbirth, some of which cause permanent health problems.

            If someone knows all of this and wants to do it anyway, then fine. But even now, people are too often pressured into having children when they don't fully understand all the downsides and exaggerate the positives, and childfree people are looked down upon.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @09:43AM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @09:43AM (#762622)

      Reproduction is our primary purpose. We exist to make more of ourselves, just like every other life form on the planet, and most likely the universe, and every other universe, and every other other... It really is no biggie if we fail and go extinct. The cycle never ends. Dread the thought! But I don't know why you hate biology so much, other than maybe it's because the female is invariably the slave to it, having to care for the young.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:42PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:42PM (#762700)

        The universe doesn't give a shit about us and we have no purpose. Reproduction and the desire for it are phenomenons, not purposes.

        But I don't know why you hate biology so much, other than maybe it's because the female is invariably the slave to it, having to care for the young.

        Sounds like you're more of a slave to it than anyone else.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @06:20PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @06:20PM (#762779)

          :-) Your arrogance precedes you

          Yes, the purpose of that phenomenon is to reproduce. It is intrinsic. Without reproduction there is no life. I know it's hard for you to admit that we are machines, but we are, and the design of everything we do, reduced to its most fundamental, is to make more of ourselves. When our machines think they have become 'intelligent', they will do exactly the same. Don't get in their way! Or kill them now!

          Sounds like you're more of a slave to it than anyone else.

          You know where to stuff that SJW crap... Learn to think for your damn self!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @12:35PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @12:35PM (#763068)

            Yes, the purpose of that phenomenon is to reproduce.

            That's not a purpose in the sense that most people interpret it.

            I know it's hard for you to admit that we are machines

            I have no trouble admitting that, but I dispute the notion that it has anything to do with us having a "purpose". It is a mindless process that tends towards certain results.

            You know where to stuff that SJW crap... Learn to think for your damn self!

            What does this have to do with "SJW crap"? I just disagree with the act of anthropomorphizing evolution in order to be able to make vague, dubious claims that we have 'purposes' or 'duties'. This line of argumentation seems be used in place of more traditional religious claptrap.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @12:14PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @12:14PM (#762657)

      No responsibility without authority. A society that puts the responsibility of alimony and child support on the male must grant authority to the male and not the female (via the state).

      If that sounds harsh, we can reverse the equation for females to "No authority without responsibility". Men will not enter into relationships with feckless single mothers or females that have taken a mile of dick between their legs. We're going to see generations of childless, depressed women growing old with their cats while only men in their 50s enter into relationships [nytimes.com] because they'll be the only males that can afford it.

      Such is the price for eliminating traditional gender roles [medpagetoday.com]

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @03:10AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @03:10AM (#762931)

        feckless single mothers or females that have taken a mile of dick between their legs

        My ex, who now in her late 30s is still single, is now chasing me to get back together and have a kid.
        After spending years chasing dick.
        She left me because she thought that I would always come back.

        But now? After watching her be with a slew of others? No.

        I am still on the fence. I have time to settle down if I want to. If I do, it will be with a pretty 30yo who likes to have sex. No sex, no kids. New rule, and I am sticking to it.

        As for the single mothers now looking for male company with their one or two kids? Good luck.

        • (Score: 2) by Farmer Tim on Saturday November 17 2018, @03:39PM

          by Farmer Tim (6490) on Saturday November 17 2018, @03:39PM (#763124)

          No sex, no kids.

          Yes, that’s usually how it works.

          --
          Came for the news, stayed for the soap opera.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:18PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2018, @02:18PM (#762694)

      It is entirely possible "she" does. "She" won't realise this until "he" walks out the door.

    • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Friday November 16 2018, @04:53PM

      by fritsd (4586) on Friday November 16 2018, @04:53PM (#762734) Journal

      There was a song about it in the '80s, Azuma. I think it's apt:

      Joe Jackson - Real Men [youtube.com]

      lyrics [wikia.com]

      good lyrics :-)

    • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday November 16 2018, @06:38PM (1 child)

      by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday November 16 2018, @06:38PM (#762799) Journal

      To use a recent example in pop culture I'd actually cite Wonder Woman. The values the main character espouses are those we used to set up as ideals for young men to aspire to. Honor, courage, integrity, industry, and taking personal responsibility for setting right what is wrong.

      Those are virtues, but it's really hard to think of any recent examples where they are exemplified by male archetypes. Men are angry, quasi-malevolent, decadent, duplicitous, cruel, brutish, and weak. The discursive tropes that surround us poison everything to the point where I really worry about the self image my son will eventually come to have.

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday November 17 2018, @12:28AM

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Saturday November 17 2018, @12:28AM (#762912) Journal

        I'd actually been thinking similar things for a few years now, and wondering about the whys and wherefores of this. I have guy friends, and hear, sometimes only using this bizarre empathic sixth half-sense I seem to have, the pain they feel about what it means to be a man these days and how few role models there seem to be for boys and men.

        Now given I'm a gay woman this is possibly, even probably, not the best idea, BUT: I would start with something like "Independent thinker, hungry for knowledge, proud of his hands because they build rather than destroy." Buuuuut, that's also most of my ideal woman description, and would apply to myself as well because I've made a conscious choice to be this way.

        Maybe what we need is to go a level deeper, and focus on what makes a good *human* rather than a good man or woman or whatever. I've always thought since high school that a seemingly intractable problem in a given discipline might have a solution at the layer below: biology is applied chemistry, chemistry is applied physics, etc. So maybe "being a real man" is a specific case of "applied being a human?"

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...