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After VW was outed for falsifying environmental data in its cars hundreds of thousand of VW vehicles were taken off the road now sitting in storage sites. Hundreds of thousands of cars now lie in lots in the Mojave Desert, a shuttered suburban Detroit football stadium, and a former Minnesota paper mill in America alone. These vehicles are now in the open slowly breaking down with pollutants entering the environment. Is the the modern cost of corporate greed? What can we do to ensure this never happens again?
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Half a Million VW Vehicles Dumped in Graveyards
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The last time I saw him he was walking down Lover's Lane holding his own hand.
-- Fred Allen
(Score: 5, Insightful) by acid andy on Saturday December 08 2018, @04:53PM (21 children)
Which you would be. If you can't see far enough ahead to be able to stop within that distance, slow down.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday December 08 2018, @06:34PM (20 children)
ROFLMAO - I can stop my car within a hundred yards - if the brakes don't just decide to quit working. Which is what ABS is all about. You've been modded insightful, and in most cases, I would agree with the statement and the moderation. But - context. Your brakes have just decided to go on strike, and you're screwed.
(Score: 5, Informative) by NewNic on Saturday December 08 2018, @07:36PM (17 children)
If you approach a stop sign and have to put on the brakes hard enough for the ABS to engage, then, yes, you were driving too fast: you were to blame for the accident.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Saturday December 08 2018, @08:20PM (16 children)
You're just not getting it. I live on a quarter mile long county road, with a gravel surface. I approach the end of my road, going no more than 30 mile per hour under any weather conditions. I've described the wet, soggy conditions. The driver's side wheels are on firm, solid gravel bed, with very little loose gravel. The right side gets wet, soft, and squishy. As I approach the highway, I'm naturally slowing down, I don't run right up on the stop sign, then make a panic stop. I may only be going 10 mph, or only 5 mph, when I decide that it's time to brake. Those right side wheels start spazzing, because the slightest braking causes them to "skid". You can feel which wheels are locking and releasing - the left side has a nice steady positive braking thing going on. The right side simply doesn't want to stop.
Having experienced this on hundreds of rainy nights, I expect it. I COULD move over to the center of the road, instead of staying on my side. But - if another car turned into my dead end road while I were in the center, that potential accident would be all my fault. I much prefer to be on my own side of the road, despite the ABS dislike for the softer, unstable surface near the edge of the road.
The original poster to whom I replied stated the case perfectly. ABS brakes don't do their job properly under some weather conditions. All that I have done is to confirm his statement, then observed that if a person were taken by surprise by similar circumstances, he could be in serious trouble.
If all four of my wheels were pulsing from the ABS, then you might have a valid point. The two left wheels are indeed on a good stable surface that doesn't get saturated, even in very heavy rains. If/when they were pulsing, then it would be pretty obvious that I was approaching the stop sign too fast.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 08 2018, @08:49PM (8 children)
I concur. I live on pavement, but it's in poor condition. The first stop sign I come to when leaving is on a down-hill with potholes and some loose gravel. Anti-lock engages unless I really pussy-foot it. I've also had this happen when reacting to city traffic. Fortunately I've never had an accident with it, but if given the choice I think I might strip out anti-lock entirely. One time I was driving with my Dad in the passenger seat. Some idiot did some thing and I cadence braked--I had read about it someplace and practiced it a few times in an empty parking lot. Tons of old school Detroit sheet metal came to a stop so fast it made us gasp. My Dad didn't think his car was capable of that. Anti-lock can't do it. It's based on the premise that you'll maintain maneuverability more easily, and it sacrifices stopping distance to do that. I can't think of any time I've ever panic-stopped in 30+ years of driving and had time to think about dodging stuff. It was all about stopping. If there was time to dodge, there was time to stab the brake and turn like they taught us back in the days when standard transmissions were still common. I know that anti-lock is better in theory, but how well is that thing actually set up? It can't read road conditions, that's for sure.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 09 2018, @02:07AM (7 children)
What do you think ABS does? ABS is cadence braking at a far higher rate than any human could possibly achieve.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday December 09 2018, @02:20AM
Maybe the problem is that ABS is doing it TOO often for best effect under the conditions being argued about. The human can make judgment calls; the software.. maybe not.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 09 2018, @03:15AM (4 children)
> ABS is cadence braking at a far higher rate than any human could possibly achieve.
Sort of, but you do *not* have the whole story. Deformable surfaces like gravel, slush over ice, mud over clay, possibly loose sand on pavement, all require a different braking strategy than normal hard road surfaces. Every ABS system I've tried (many, but not all), fail to distinguish these cases. The correct strategy is a *very* slow cadence, allowing time for a large wedge of the loose material to accumulate in front of each tire. This provides the best deceleration on these surfaces.
If you just want to stop in a straight line, locking the wheels is the best strategy. If you need to do some steering, release the locked wheels long enough to steer, then re-lock up all the wheels. Often some steering is needed to stay in lane, even on nearly level surfaces, so let the wheels roll over the 'wedges" and then steer (locked wheels are like having rubber pads--no directional control is possible).
Here in the Great Lakes, slush over ice is common. Many knowledgeable drivers either have an older "winter car" w/out ABS, or have figured out how to pull the fuse. In the worst ABS cases (which I've experienced a number of times), I can approach an intersection at 5-10 mph, start braking a hundred feet (30 meters) in advance and feel helpless as the car just rolls into the intersection.
The most recent time it happened, a few weeks back, I was able to make a partial right turn onto the crossing street before the cross traffic got there. So, you could say that ABS was doing its job since it let me steer, but I really just wanted to STOP!
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 09 2018, @05:11AM (3 children)
You're dangerously wrong!
> If you just want to stop in a straight line, locking the wheels is the best strategy.
That's not true. The static friction is much lower than the dynamic friction under almost all cases, as the surface rubber softens and road material lubricates the interface. Note that rolling is static friction at any instant (contacting points stay aligned), and skidding is dynamic friction (contacting points on surfaces shift relative to each other).
Locking the wheels is the best strategy under some conditions, but DEFINITELY not in the general case!
Source: lots of easy to duckduckgo theory, and I've confirmed with my own force studies on bike wheels. Setup never included intentional particulate (sand, gravel) or pooled water, but results obtained for slick-wet and dry. Rubber on cement and asphalt and wood produces more backwards force in stiction than in skid.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 09 2018, @06:51AM
You missed the context (on purpose?), sorry that I didn't make it painfully clear. I only meant that locked wheels are the best strategy for deformable surfaces - which was the clear topic of my post, this whole thread is in response to Runaway and his gravel road.
What I wrote (and you quoted):
> If you just want to stop in a straight line, locking the wheels is the best strategy.
What I should have written:
> If you just want to stop in a straight line on a deformable surface, locking the wheels is the best strategy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 09 2018, @07:01AM (1 child)
> ... my own force studies on bike wheels.
Upright or recumbent bicycle? On an upright, any serious amount of braking on the front wheel leads to pitch over.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday December 10 2018, @12:30AM
Braking my old Schwinn (which was heavy -- 40 pounds on the scale) on ice... had to use rear brake ONLY. Touch the front brake and the whole bike would instantly swap ends, making for an exciting ride...
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday December 11 2018, @06:52AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday December 09 2018, @04:27AM (5 children)
If the wheels on the right side are locking and releasing, then without ABS they'd just lock and slide providing LESS effective braking.
It might be better if your brake system could operate with more subtlety and provide still more braking power, but your brakes are hardly "on strike" and you aren't better off without ABS.
On a late rainy night when there's no traffic around, pull the fuse on your ABS and give it a try. But be careful, you might be in for a surprise.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 09 2018, @06:58AM
> If the wheels on the right side are locking and releasing, then without ABS they'd just lock and slide providing LESS effective braking.
Probably not true. If the wheels on the right side are in deformable mud and gravel, locking them will build up a wedge of loose material in front of the tires and this will (in many cases) give more deceleration than with ABS operating.
Yes, try without the ABS. Pulling the ABS fuse is a common strategy by knowledgeable drivers in my area (Great Lakes) where slush over ice is frequent. In my case, I keep an older "winter car" that does not have ABS. I learned to pump the brakes as a kid (someone else called this "cadence braking"). On slush there is some skill in deciding when to pump vs. when to lock (for a short time) and then release if steering is needed. None of the ABS systems I've tried (many but not all) are not "smart" enough to detect a deformable surface and change strategy.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 09 2018, @07:10AM (3 children)
Without ABS (and without manual brake pumping) the loose material builds up in front of the tires. Given the bad surface, this is your best option. Pushing those piles of loose material is better than nothing; with ABS you get nothing.
ABS is OKish on normal asphalt that is perhaps a bit moist with light rain. Experienced non-ABS drivers can do as well however, by manually pumping the brakes.
We have ABS because the typical driver is a distracted or sleepy idiot, and because mildly slippery conditions are more common than loose surfaces. Under less typical conditions, such as an experienced driver on very loose gravel or sand, ABS makes things worse.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Sunday December 09 2018, @08:17AM (2 children)
Perhaps it is necessary to state clearly for most people:
On dry, stable surfaces, ABS in a panic stop is frightening when an old-school driver uses it for the first time in a panic stop. I thought that I understood how it would work, only to find that my concept was pretty wildly skewed from reality. (Panic stop means I should have begun to stop many seconds, perhaps a whole minute before I did attempt to stop.) Until the first time you NEED ABS, you are accustomed to wheels locking up, but with ABS, they don't lock. No screeching, no skid marks, just brake and release, over and over. And, it's frightening, because your brain just KNOWS that you're not stopping quickly enough.
It's only after the fact that you can evaluate what has just occurred, and you can compare it with the old-timey skid.
In those conditions, yes, ABS really does work well. And, the same can be said for stable, but wet road surfaces, with no ice. In these conditions, ABS prevents skidding that can cost lives. It's difficult if not impossible to induce a skid in a car with ABS under these conditions.
All through this discussion, however, we have been discussing all those OTHER conditions that auto engineers don't, and can't, exactly plan for.
I will say that when all four wheels brake independently of each other, you probably have the best all-around setup. But, it is necessary to point out that the whole system needs to be serviced regularly to be reliable. When any component decides to quit, for whatever reason, that ABS isn't going to work as intended. And, you will not discover that fact until just exactly the wrong moment.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 09 2018, @06:58PM (1 child)
> On dry, stable surfaces, ABS in a panic stop is frightening when an old-school driver uses it for the first time in a panic stop.
What, the first time you tried your ABS was in an actual panic situation? Where is your curiosity, did you lose it in the Navy? Is your car/truck new enough that it has other "nanny" features like ESC (stability control)? If so, I strongly suggest you find a safe place to try them out, so you won't be surprised when they take away (some of) your control of the vehicle.
The first time I was in a car with ABS (early 1980s) I drove to a quiet/empty/dry/hard road and tried it for myself, first at a low speed, then working up to higher speeds. Got used to the noise and pulsation and after that I wasn't surprised when it engaged. Also, tried steering when ABS engaged, it works surprisingly well, in general it seems that the harder you turn the car the less braking you get...
Now, if I'm on a marginal surface (around here could be fresh snow), I still look for an opening in traffic and test the brakes to see how much stopping power I've got. Often this engages the ABS, no harm done and I've mentally "calibrated" the surface.
Te worst is slush stirred up around intersections, the wheels can lock so easily on slush that ABS nearly defeats all braking. That's when I really want the ABS-OFF switch.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Sunday December 09 2018, @08:27PM
Uhhhhhhhhh, sorry, that's not what I said. What I said was, the first time I made a genuine panic stop, it was a frightening experience. Maybe a better way to state the case is, I didn't have faith in the brakes. Maybe I didn't play around long enough, or hard enough to learn to have faith in them. But, yes, like yourself, I've made use of empty lots in the rain, and in the snow, as well as learning how a "new" car handles. It can be surprising when a "sporty" looking car handles like an ancient station wagon, but a pickup or an SUV is almost sporty. It's always best to discover those things in an empty lot.
(Score: 1) by kai_h on Sunday December 09 2018, @08:42PM
I don't know what's up with your ABS, but the ABS in my car deals with this specific situation quite well.
I went to a drive day held by my car manufacturer where they had a slippery vinyl tarpaulin covered with water covering half of a straight piece of track. The wet tarp was covering one side of the track and extended down the track for ~50 metres. We were instructed to drive at 50 km/h and as soon as the wheels were on the tarp (the left-hand side, IIRC) we were to engage emergency braking (try and push the brake pedal through the floor). The ABS in the car handled the situation perfectly and the car stopped in a straight line.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday December 09 2018, @04:17AM (1 child)
ABS doesn't even engage unless you are at risk of breaking traction. It's true that the most skilled drivers can stop slightly shorter than simple ABS systems can, but most drivers are not in that category, including most drivers that think they are (this likely includes you until proven otherwise). And if your ABS is independent, even the most skilled driver can't beat it since the brake pedal doesn't offer individual wheel control.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 10 2018, @01:05AM
But on soft surfaces, breaking traction can be the right answer.
It's called cadence braking -- you alternate between braking and steering. Lock the wheels to plow through the soft material for maximum braking, then as the car starts to drift off-axis (or as needed to follow the road, avoid obstacles, or whatever) you lift off the brake pedal and steer. Repeat (in a cadence, hence the name) until you're at a speed and direction you're happy with.
I agree most drivers aren't the mythical expert that can outperform even simple ABS on wet blacktop, but you don't have to be; it's actually pretty easy to outperform ABS in soft materials, if your car lets you do it.
The problem is, ABS is optimized for urban/highway driving, where wet blacktop is the number one killer surface. Which is great for them, but it screws rural drivers who are more likely to drive on muddy or snowy (unplowed) roads, and it screws learning drivers by not letting them learn how to drive in snow and mud.