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posted by martyb on Wednesday December 12 2018, @12:37PM   Printer-friendly
from the Third-Verse-Same-As-The-First dept.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46509288

"Prime Minister Theresa May has called off Tuesday's crucial vote on her Brexit deal so she can go back to Brussels and ask for changes to it.

"As it stands the deal 'would be rejected by a significant margin' if MPs voted on it, she admitted."

The biggest stumbling block appears to be the issue between Ireland and Northern Ireland. In particular, what the borders will look like in terms of what people and goods will need to do or not do in order to cross it.


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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:21PM (21 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @02:21PM (#773443)

    I voted for Brexit.
    I also voted for Scotland's independence.

    There's a rumour going round that all the people who voted for Brexit are looney right wing little englanders or fucking Unionists, this is not the case, I'm very left of centre (in USian terms I'd probably be what you used to call a commie), and my reasons for voting to leave the Fourth Reich are very simple.

    1. In the short term it's the only way I could see that both the UK would be destabilised to the point that the SNP muppets finally get a Yes on the Independance front, and hopefully by the time that an independant Scotland ever gets round to any sort of treaty with it, the aftershock of Brexit coupled with the EU's increasingly evident internal problems in member states with the 'ein volk, ein reich' mentality the Eurocrats are sponsoring cause it to change tack, otherwise the SNP will have another fight on their hands if they try to join that clusterfuck again. Note: I do not support the SNP, but I vote for them as a means to an end.

    2. I'm righting a wrong for my late father, he voted for Britain to join the common market, as the years went by and he saw what that really meant, he regretted doing so. As he said 'they lied to us, they said it was only about trade'.

    3. I like popcorn, more to the point, I like the way it his become blindingly obvious to even the dumbest sheeple in the herd over the past couple of months that the politicians they vote for are clueless mendacious self-centred and self-serving backstabbing weasel mouthed duplicitous arseholes. Some of us already knew this, but it's going to be very hard for a lot of people in Britain now not to pay attention to 'the Man' when the curtain has not just been pulled aside, but royally shredded.

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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:08PM (6 children)

    by PiMuNu (3823) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:08PM (#773465)

    Rant mode:

    4. The EU, while having stupendous legislative powers, is only slightly democratic. You know, UK was founder of democracy in the modern era, and this second-hand, second-rate democracy in EU is crap.

    5. As an aside, the total failure of the EU to respond to Brexit with any meaningful change bodes ill for the rest of Europe. I can't see how EU can continue.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:59PM

      by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:59PM (#773487) Homepage Journal

      I think the European Union is a foe, what they do to us in trade. Now, you wouldn't think of the European Union, but they're a foe. But that doesn't mean they are bad. It doesn't mean anything. It means that they are competitive. I respect the leaders of those countries. But, in a trade sense, they've really taken advantage of us and many of those countries are in NATO and they weren't paying their bills. And possibly the European Union will break up. And that's O. K.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fritsd on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:43PM (4 children)

      by fritsd (4586) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:43PM (#773509) Journal

      5. As an aside, the total failure of the EU to respond to Brexit with any meaningful change bodes ill for the rest of Europe. I can't see how EU can continue.

      First of all, the UK is leaving. Why should the EU change itself in order to please and placate an *EX* member? (retorical question, hang on, i'll respond better)

      The logical answer is, "in order that other countries don't want to leave, too".

      Now it's a fact, that the UK had a better deal as EU member than *any other EU member*.
      - They had a special "Maggie Thatcher" rebate (money back each year from their contribution, which is defined as a percentage of GDP)
      - They had a special exemption "no €uro" (just like Denmark)
      - They had a special exemption "no Schengen (easy travel of people) [wikipedia.org]"

      And, because of literally decades of mind-poisoning right-wing tabloid newspapers, they decided that those weren't enough.
      David Cameron sent an ultimatum to Brussels: "give us even more, or we'll have a referendum to exit the EU!"
      The EU basically told Cameron to go spin on it. Byeeee!!

      So far, it seems like no other country has given any indication of wanting to leave the EU. Instead, many Europeans scratch their head as to why the UK does such a bloody counterproductive thing.
      This is a cartoon that I think very nicely depicts this attitude to Brexit:
      brexit arm saw cartoon [wp.com] (unsure about the website, wtf does vintage value investing mean?)

      OK so that's the emotional aspect. But there is also a rational aspect:

      - It has been calculated that the UK is better off *in an economical sense* if it stays within the EU.
      - The UK is leaving.
      Therefore, in order for this to make sense, there must be *non-economical* factors in play, that have a *heavier* weight than the economical factors.
      That's fine: the EU itself is not principally about money, but instead about an end to intra-EU war and famine.
      However: the people arguing for Brexit, such as prime minister Theresa May and her Tory government, are responsible for communicating these non-economical factors to anyone willing to listen (especially the EU of course).

      And in my honest opinion, nobody has ever done this.
      Nobody has ever given any non-economical reason *why* it's better for the UK to leave.
      There is one reason, namely that most of the tax evasion in the world goes on in British colonies, and the EU is going to clamp down on tax evasion coming January. However no Brit has ever officially said that this was the reason.
      In any case, that would only be of benefit to stupendously rich Brits, not at all to all Brits.

      A reason mentioned a lot in newspapers is: "because sovereignty". But then this is never fully articulated what they actually mean by that. Is the UK planning to leave NATO, the UN and the Eurovision Songfestival as well, because sovereignty?

      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:06PM

        by PiMuNu (3823) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:06PM (#773528)

        > because sovereignty

        Let me help:

        1. The EU has massive legislative power. They can't raise taxes or an army (yet) but otherwise they have as much or more power than the member state governments.

        2. The EU is run by a group of unelected politicians. They are nominated by a political elite. I realise most of the nominators represent a political party that has been elected, but that does not really cut the mustard. People who wield such legislative power should be directly elected.

        3. The directly elected house has little power, which is reflected in a general disinterest from the electorate in the EU elections.

        4. There is no one running the EU. The rotating EU presidency thing is a pile of crap. (Have you ever tried working in an organisation with no meaningful leadership? Imagine if there was no one in charge of your workplace, do you think anything would ever happen?)

        Compare that with, say, the UK system, where I vote for members of the house of commons, who set out a legislative program in their manifesto and broadly speaking carry it out. I know that when I vote for *x* party, I am going to get this person or that person running the show and this or that legislative program.

        As a case in point: the GDPR has had an absolutely massive impact on every aspect of everyone's life, bigger than pretty much any piece of legislation going through British parliament. Where did it come from? Was it set out in anyone's manifesto? I didn't see it anywhere. Where was the discussion? I knew about it from e.g. this site, but I bet others had not a clue.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by schad on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:40PM (2 children)

        by schad (2398) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:40PM (#773547)

        So in the US, the argument is basically that the mean and the median are not the same thing. To expand on that slightly, while free trade might benefit the economy as a whole, those benefits flow disproportionately (or even exclusively) to only a small fraction of the population. The majority is either no better off, or significantly worse off. Really, it's about wealth inequality, but in the US "wealth inequality" is a catchphrase of the left, so nobody in the right can talk about it directly. As if that's not enough, because the left has to be opposed to everything that Trump does (even if it's something that the left used to support in the recent past), they suddenly have become proponents of free trade even as they continue to rail against the effects that free trade has had on the country. This all leads to a muddled and confusing discourse.

        As an ignorant American, this seems to be similar to what's happening in the UK with Brexit. Brexiteers may recognize that the EU has had major economic benefits, but they think those benefits have gone to one or two places: the elites, or Eastern European immigrants. In either case, "regular" Brits have been left behind, marginalized, etc.

        I could be completely wrong. Like I said, I'm an ignorant American. But I see an awful lots of parallels.

        • (Score: 2) by Dr Spin on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:32PM

          by Dr Spin (5239) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @09:32PM (#773695)

          while free trade might benefit the economy as a whole, those benefits flow disproportionately (or even exclusively) to only a small fraction of the population.

          The fraction of the UK population that want food on their table is small? Who knew!

          The chief advantage of leaving will be the serious disruption to our supply of food and drugs (I think its fair to say the supplies of milk, pork, whiskey and cannabis will probably be safe. Not much else - potatoes might be OK for part of the year, dependent on what happens in Ireland, and Israeli avocados are probably safe too when in season).

          --
          Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @09:42AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 13 2018, @09:42AM (#773929)

          In either case, "regular" Brits have been left behind, marginalized, etc

          While that may be true, the leaving behind of "regular Brits" has been UK policy, not EU. The UK governments of Thatcher and Blair both worked very hard to gut the "regular" British economy (targeting lower class and middle class respectively), while centralizing most wealth in London. The EU does not have policies prescribing how to distribute wealth within its member countries, only across borders. For politicians, the EU is an easy target to deflect domestic criticism to, but that doesn't make the EU magically responsible for the situation "regular" Brits find themselves in.

          It's ironic that "regular" Brits continue to whine about the "unelected" EU institutions, while they won't even hold their own "elected" institutions to account.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:11PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:11PM (#773467)

    my reasons for voting to leave the Fourth Reich are very simple.

    How supposedly intelligent people fail to understand this [britannica.com] is beyond me. An unaccountable commission tabling legislation proposed by the round table of industrialists in pursuit of political and economic expansionism that will apparently require an army. Yet leave voters are the ones who are called "thick" and "fascistic"?

    politicians [...] are clueless mendacious self-centred and self-serving backstabbing weasel mouthed duplicitous arseholes.

    Care to elaborate on this? Don't hold back - tell us how you really feel!

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:54PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:54PM (#773517)

      Yet leave voters are the ones who are called "thick" and "fascistic"?

      The loudest ones in any group are generally either one or the other, or both.

      But given that almost as many people voted to remain as did to leave, I could justifiably call the absolute refusal of many leave voters to accept any kind of compromise "thick" and/or "fascistic".

    • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:22PM (1 child)

      by fritsd (4586) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:22PM (#773536) Journal

      An unaccountable commission tabling legislation proposed by the round table of industrialists in pursuit of political and economic expansionism that will apparently require an army.

      Don't worry -- lots of that "tinkle-down-on-the-peoples-necks" neoliberal crap will disappear from the EU together with its main instigator and promotor, the Tory-led UK! :-) Hopefully the rest, the EU27, will now shift the EU as a whole slightly towards more Portugal-like [wikipedia.org] politics, now that that ball-and-chain the UK removed itself voluntarily. Only 3 1/2 more months to go! Then the political "Gestalt [wikipedia.org]" of the EU will slowly change to reflect the new composition.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:39PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:39PM (#773738) Journal

        Hopefully the rest, the EU27, will now shift the EU as a whole slightly towards more Portugal-like politics, now that that ball-and-chain the UK removed itself voluntarily.

        This narrative of discarding the second largest economy in the EU (even after almost two years of Brexit) and then remodeling the EU on one of the shittier economies in the place is a really great story. It will no doubt flounder spectacularly on the shoals of reality, but the striving shall long be spoken of in song!

  • (Score: 5, Funny) by zocalo on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:13PM (1 child)

    by zocalo (302) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:13PM (#773469)

    I like the way it his become blindingly obvious to even the dumbest sheeple in the herd over the past couple of months that the politicians they vote for are clueless mendacious self-centred and self-serving backstabbing weasel mouthed duplicitous arseholes.

    Yeah, but Theresa May has kept her re-election campain pledge to unite the people, so she has at least managed to deliver on *something*. Admittedly they're united in the opinion that the politicians they vote for are clueless mendacious self-centred and self-serving backstabbing weasel mouthed duplicitous arseholes, but you've got to start somewhere, right?

    (Also just enjoying the popcorn factor at this point - my "Yes Minister" collection has nothing on this train wreck...)

    --
    UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:26PM

      by PiMuNu (3823) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:26PM (#773475)

      > my "Yes Minister" collection has nothing on this train wreck...

      dig out the eurosausage episode, just for nostalgia's sake

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:30PM (5 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:30PM (#773477)

    The common market was about trade, the EU that followed it is grabbing for political power. Brexiteers, stand strong. Perhaps it will make the other people wake up and wrest the EU away from the appointed, third rate politicians in the Commission.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:58PM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @05:58PM (#773562)

      It was always about political union. The economic union was meant as as a means to that end.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:40PM (3 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @10:40PM (#773741) Journal

        It was always about political union. The economic union was meant as as a means to that end.

        By who?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:12PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:12PM (#773760)

          By... (you ready?)... UK, which thought they'll be able to govern the entire Europe instead of a couple of islands.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:26PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday December 12 2018, @11:26PM (#773771) Journal
            I'm not buying it. But then again, you didn't really want that economy anyway.
        • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Thursday December 13 2018, @05:16PM

          by fritsd (4586) on Thursday December 13 2018, @05:16PM (#774023) Journal

          By some very, very clever but not very famous people such as Robert Schuman [wikipedia.org], Jean Monnet [wikipedia.org], Altiero Spinelli [wikipedia.org], Paul-Henri Spaak [wikipedia.org], Konrad Adenauer [wikipedia.org] and Sicco Mansholt. (OK, Adenauer was famous of course)

  • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:55PM (1 child)

    by Whoever (4524) on Wednesday December 12 2018, @03:55PM (#773486) Journal

    In other words, you are a moron who just wants the world to burn.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:14PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 12 2018, @04:14PM (#773492)

      In other words, you are a moron who just wants the world to burn.

      Aye, fire is a wonderful thing, a great tool for clearing out plague ridden areas...besides, flickering flames are pretty!