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posted by martyb on Monday December 31 2018, @02:28AM   Printer-friendly
from the can-you-lease-a-pet,-instead? dept.

Californian law change means pet shops can sell only rescued animals

California is set to become the first state in the US to ban the sale of non-rescue animals in pet shops.

The new law, known as AB 485, takes effect on 1 January. Any businesses violating it face a $500 (£400) fine.

The change means cats, dogs and rabbits sold by retailers cannot be sourced from breeders, only from animal shelters.

Animal rights groups have heralded it as a step forward against so-called "kitten factories" and "puppy mills".

Previously: California Commercial Pet Breeding Law Passed, Signed


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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by NateMich on Monday December 31 2018, @03:02AM (25 children)

    by NateMich (6662) on Monday December 31 2018, @03:02AM (#780149)

    But for breeds, and not just mutts, people will still buy them directly from the owners.

    This actually needs to be implemented everywhere, as it would eventually reduce the amount pit bulls.

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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Monday December 31 2018, @05:15AM (24 children)

    by Thexalon (636) on Monday December 31 2018, @05:15AM (#780162)

    Why would you want to reduce the amount of pit bulls specifically? Pit bulls can be really nice dogs [petfinder.com], and there's no particular reason to want to reduce their numbers any more than any other breed.

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by mhajicek on Monday December 31 2018, @06:26AM (13 children)

      by mhajicek (51) on Monday December 31 2018, @06:26AM (#780169)

      Yes, they can be really nice and friendly for years, and then randomly snap and rip a five year olds face off.

      --
      The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
      • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @10:15AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @10:15AM (#780207)

        Just like every other breed of dog? You don't like pit bulls because you're racist, not because they're actually bad dogs.

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by Sulla on Monday December 31 2018, @09:37PM (1 child)

          by Sulla (5173) on Monday December 31 2018, @09:37PM (#780392) Journal

          https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-multi-year-fatality-report-2005-2017.php [dogsbite.org]

          Summary: In the 13-year period of January 1, 2005 to December 31, 2017, canines killed at least 433 Americans. Pit bulls contributed to 66% of these deaths. Rottweilers, the second leading canine killer, inflicted 10% of attacks that resulted in human death. Combined, two dog breeds accounted for 76% of the total recorded deaths. [Table 1]

          This report examines the breeds of dogs involved in fatal attacks on humans, age groups and genders of the victims, the number of dogs involved, family and dog relationships, property statistics, household and time factors, criminal prosecutions following lethal dog attacks and states with the most occurrences. This report also examines the changing metrics in U.S. fatal dog attacks since the CDC last examined this issue (1979 to 1998).

          Today, when averaging the last 3 years (2015 to 2017), pit bulls comprise about 6.5% of the total U.S. dog population. This is a 63% rise since the 3-year period of 2010 to 2012 when the total U.S. pit bull population was estimated to be 4%.

          Pit bulls appear to be an especially violent breed. Maybe they are just prone to a genetic illness that we yet haven't confirmed that makes them snap. When talking about German Shepherd or Rottweiler (15% of the deaths) people often remark that you must train them especially well to make them a good family dog, yet when it comes to pit bulls everyone bats their eyes and says they are all loving and innocent. Pit bulls need to be viewed in the same light as the other two breeds. Shepherds are known for getting problematic in their old age when their senses start to fail and they start getting aggressive, probably their defensive mechanism. Pit bulls can be kind and loving for a couple years then decide they want to kill the kids, babysitter, or teenager.

          A breakdown of adults fatally attacked by pit bulls follows: Pit bulls inflicted 91% (21) of all dog bite deaths in the 10-29 age group; 72% (36) in the 30-49 age group; 74% (56) in the 50-69 age group; and 66% (50) in the ≥70 age group.

          --
          Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 02 2019, @12:18AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 02 2019, @12:18AM (#780797)

            But the death statistics imply that pit bulls are less violent than human beings, given that they only resulted in a few hundred deaths among their race (which has to have a few hundred thousand to million members in the US)

            As others said, you're racist, for the same reasons other people are racist against humans: Because a combination fo the culture the other humans were raised in, and because the establishment is selling you a narrative.

            I can tell you for a fact, while some does will go crazy, the majority of them only do from psychological trauma inflicted when they were younger. I've had three dog who had things that scared them from running and barking at it, to running and hiding under a table.

            A friend has a dog that was owned by meth heads who abused it frequently until his mom stole it away. The dog has only ever warmed up to him and her in the years since, being scared of every other person it meets unless they have been kind to it for weeks or months, and avoids other dogs as much as possible (and yes he has attempted to socialize it, its fears are deep rooted and cause increasing anxiety if kept around others for prolonged periods.)

            Pitbulls in particular seem to get abusive owners, as did rottweilers and dobermans in the past, likely leading to more violent outbursts from them than others due to deep seated psychological trauma. Just because they aren't human doesn't mean they can't remember traumatic experiences and last out accordingly. That is a simple ,matter of neurological biology.

      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @03:48PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @03:48PM (#780277)

        This reminds me of a story a coworker used to tell. He had a home in the township and his neighbor had a vicious dog that followed him along the fence barking everytime he would go in the back yard. We're not talking normal yappity, this dog would charge the fence. He couldn't even mow his yard in peace. One day at a family barbecue, the kids were playing baseball and the dog went apeshit. It jumped the fence and charged his nephew. The kid raised his bat over his head and stood his ground. As the dog lunged to bite, the boy brought the bat down on top of the dog's skull. The dog went out like a light. At this point the neighbor finally decides to do something after it was too late and comes running over to his beloved dog, furious at the kid. He makes threats of calling the police, which my friend says "Absolutely, go right ahead but you're not moving Fido until they arrive."

        Eventually, the dog woke up, but according to my friend, was never "right" again. No more problems at the fence either.

        Moral of the story: Animal lovers can easily overlook their pet's vicious actions, terrible behavior and bad manners but get all bent out of shape when others won't. Sometimes you have to club them over the head to make them understand that Fido needs to learn boundaries.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @10:47PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @10:47PM (#780412)

          I hope the dog owner appreciates the medical and legal obligations that were avoided, if nothing else, as someone stood their ground.

          Ownership of a nasty dog is not license to intimidate the neighbors.

        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Sulla on Monday December 31 2018, @11:06PM (1 child)

          by Sulla (5173) on Monday December 31 2018, @11:06PM (#780420) Journal

          Recently a new neighbor moved in behind me with two pitbulls. Ripped several sizable holes in the fence between us over the past few weeks. Sound aggressive and don't listen when their owner calls to them. I have a year old collie and three kids who play in my yard and now have to find enough money to build a new fence.

          I talked to the owner about getting into their back yard to put up some new crossmembers so I can replace the slats as I can afford them, guy tells me to ask and I'll let him back but is either never home, doesn't often answer door when home, or the couple times I have managed to talk to him at the door says he can't at that time.

          pitbulls--
          pitbullowners--

          --
          Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 01 2019, @02:01AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 01 2019, @02:01AM (#780487)

            Better approach:

            "When your dogs come onto my side and menace me, my family or my animals and I shoot them, should I just bury them there or give you the corpses back? And what is your full legal name for when I bill you?"

            Or better yet, move to the countryside. Out here, stray dogs get shot. On sight.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:10PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:10PM (#780285)

        That doesn't happen with the vast majority of pit bulls. You're looking at statistics and seeing lots of pit bull bites, but what you're not seeing is what overall percentage of pit bulls actually do such things.

        Also, most of the time, pit bulls can't even be properly identified, skewing the statistics even further. This is all just media fearmongering, same as what happened to several other breeds of dogs in the past. It's unbelievable that people buy into it.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:18PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:18PM (#780292)

          That doesn't happen with the vast majority of pit bulls. You're looking at statistics and seeing lots of pit bull bites, but what you're not seeing is what overall percentage of pit bulls actually do such things.

          Russian roulette is still Russian roulette even when you increase the number of empty chambers. The problem is that when pit bulls decide to attack, it's catastrophic.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:25PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:25PM (#780295)

            You're still worried about a nearly nonexistent possibility compared to all the other unnecessary risks you happily take. And, again, proper pitbull identification remains a problem.

            Well, in the end, people can get whatever dogs they like, but it's the fearmongering breed-specific legislation that results from this attitude that is the real problem.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @07:20PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @07:20PM (#780358)

              You're still worried about a nearly nonexistent possibility compared to all the other unnecessary risks you happily take. And, again, proper pitbull identification remains a problem.

              So sayeth the lover of dangerous dogs. There is no question that some breeds are more aggressive than others. Pit bulls are one of those breeds. As I said before, the real issue is that when they go on the attack their breed characteristics make them more likely to harm or kill than, say - a Yorkshire Terrier. You can apologize all you like for the statistically insignificant attacks, but that doesn't make them disappear.

              I personally would be happy if owners of such dogs bore the brunt of criminality as though they committed the acts themselves. If Rover gets away from you and mauls someone, it's felony assault and battery. If it kills, you go to jail for manslaughter. If the dog was reported for being vicious beforehand, it's premeditated. If you want to harbor dangerous animals, be prepared to go to prison if you guess wrong on your little precious fluffball's demeanor.

              As for identification, I'll take the Supreme Court standard definition. I'll know it if I see it.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 01 2019, @06:44AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 01 2019, @06:44AM (#780565)

                So sayeth the lover of dangerous dogs.

                I've never owned a pit bull in my life. I just don't buy into nonsensical, irrational media hype and faulty statistics which wouldn't be intimidating even if they were true.

                I'll know it if I see it.

                You won't, but okay.

            • (Score: 2, Informative) by Sulla on Monday December 31 2018, @09:43PM

              by Sulla (5173) on Monday December 31 2018, @09:43PM (#780394) Journal

              German shepherds which are known to be aggressive made up 5.4% of the dog population in 2016, compare this to the pit bill population of 4.9% for that year. The percentage of pit bulls increases each year. Between 2005 and 2017 the known to be aggressive german shepherds made up 4.6% of all fatal dog attacks, in the same time period pit bulls made up 65.5%.

              https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-multi-year-fatality-report-2005-2017.php [dogsbite.org]
              https://www.animals24-7.org/2016/07/29/2016-survey-list-of-top-5-u-s-dog-breed-types-ousts-pit-bulls/ [animals24-7.org]

              --
              Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 31 2018, @11:59AM (7 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 31 2018, @11:59AM (#780232) Journal

      The dog most likely to bite an owner, or a family member, is my beloved German Shepard. But, the fact is, the dog most likely to KILL a family member, or even a passer by is the pit bull. I've looked at the statistics many times, and I hate the statistics, because the dog I love most is one of the worst offenders. For the number of bites and injuries, my favorite is the absolute worst. But fatalaties belong to the pit bull family.

      Why would you take a chance on them? You have a point, it will probably never turn on you, but if/when it does, you'll most likely be dropping a cold body in the ground.

      I'll take my chances with my sheps. If an especially "mean" German Shepard mangles my arm, it will almost certainly heal.

      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 31 2018, @02:04PM (2 children)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 31 2018, @02:04PM (#780251)

        If an especially "mean" German Shepard mangles my arm, it will almost certainly heal.

        Probably true, but if it's a good mangling you will also have significant nerve damage, possible loss of motor function and almost certain loss of sensation.

        Gnarly scars are more than an aesthetic thing.

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 31 2018, @07:56PM (1 child)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 31 2018, @07:56PM (#780365) Journal

          That's part of my point though - I've been bitten by sheps many times, but never seriously injured. Never had one even think about going for the kill - they'll take a bite out of you, then back off, unless you corner them and won't allow them to back off. If the pit bull takes a bite, he's going to keep on chewing for awhile.

          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday January 01 2019, @12:46AM

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday January 01 2019, @12:46AM (#780457)

            I had a ferret - they're tenacious, but small enough to not do serious damage.

            That's the thing about "bite statistics" - they don't really get into metrics like number of stitches required, time to full recovery, etc.

            My mom had a nutso duck hunting dog - forget the breed atm but, anyway, it got super excited to see new people and hit my big toenail with a tooth - not a bite, but hard enough to split the nail. Was that a bite? It wasn't intended as one, but it was far more painful and long lasting than any ferret injury I ever sustained.

            --
            🌻🌻 [google.com]
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:13PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 31 2018, @04:13PM (#780289)

        That happens with a very, very small number of pit bulls out of the total number of pit bulls in existence. Not to mention, the fact that pit bulls can't even be properly identified most of the time puts the statistics further into question. You might also consider how the dog was raised, and how media hype might cause sketchy people to select it because they believe it is especially aggressive, and then raise it in accordance with that belief.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 31 2018, @08:06PM (2 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 31 2018, @08:06PM (#780372) Journal

          You can keep telling yourself that, or you can be honest like I was with my sheps.

          In the 13-year period of 2005 through 2017, canines killed 433 Americans. Pit bulls contributed to 66% (284) of these deaths. Combined, pit bulls and rottweilers contributed to 76% of the total recorded deaths.

          https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-multi-year-fatality-report-2005-2017.php [dogsbite.org]

          Surely you're not going to claim that pit bulls make up 66% of the dog population in this country? That's the only way you can justify pit bulls causing 66% of all dog-caused fatalities. Rottweilers have a bad name, but they aren't even in the same league with the pit bulls. No other breed comes close!

          I. Breeds of dogs involved in the most human fatalities

                  In the 13-year period of 2005 to 2017, canines killed 433 Americans. Pit bulls contributed to 66% (284) of these deaths. Within this period, deaths attributed to pit bulls rose from 58% (2005 to 2010) to 71% (2011 to 2017), a 22% rise.1 [Table 2]
                  Today, when averaging the last 3 years (2015 to 2017), pit bulls comprise about 6.5% of the total U.S. dog population. This is a 63% rise since the 3-year period of 2010 to 2012 when the total U.S. pit bull population was estimated to be 4%.2
                  Rottweilers, the second most lethal dog breed over the 13-year period, inflicted 10% (45) of attacks resulting in death. This is a decrease from an earlier period (2005 to 2010) when rottweilers inflicted 14% of the total recorded deaths. [Table 2]
                  A group of dog breeds followed rottweilers, each with fewer than half the number of deaths: German shepherds 20 deaths, mixed-breeds 17 deaths, American bulldogs 15 deaths, mastiff/bullmastiff combination 14 deaths and huskies 13 deaths.
                  The 13-year data set shows the combination of pit bulls, rottweilers and "baiting" bull breeds, fighting and guardian breeds -- American bulldogs, mastiffs, bullmastiffs, presa canarios, and cane corsos -- contributed to over 80% of all dog bite fatalities.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 01 2019, @06:47AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 01 2019, @06:47AM (#780566)

            In the 13-year period of 2005 through 2017, canines killed 433 Americans. Pit bulls contributed to 66% (284) of these deaths. Combined, pit bulls and rottweilers contributed to 76% of the total recorded deaths.

            Out of how many of these dogs? And how were the breeds identified? Many people mistake other dogs for pit bulls.

            But, even assuming the statistics are 100% true, you'd minimize your chances of death far more greatly by just driving less. People are afraid of the strangest things.

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday January 01 2019, @08:30AM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 01 2019, @08:30AM (#780578) Journal

              I don't understand where you are coming from, really. Let us begin with the fact that dogs are carnivores - or more accurately, carnivorous scavengers. They kill to live, naturally. They are well equipped for the task. The most loved, the tamest, the best behaved dogs will resort to killing, if they are hungry. That is true of all dogs, big, small, or whatever.

              These particular dogs, pit bulls, were intentionally bred to be fighters. They originated in stock that was used to bait bulls, primarily, and the best fighters were bred, and bred, and bred again, to select for the most aggressive animals, with the physical characteristics needed to devastate their opponents. The dogs are superb killers amongst killers. You might even say that the breeding program was designed to produce a vicious animal, that wouldn't back down from anything, including man.

              You want to talk numbers? Click on the link. Pit bulls make up roughly 3% of the dog population in the United States. Yet, those pit bulls account for 66% of all dog related human fatalities. You don't need any more than a third grade education to make sense of the numbers. Keeping a pit bull as a family pet is perhaps not quite suicidal, but it certainly is stupid. Criminally stupid, in fact.

              All other dogs give some kind of warning that they might attack - barking, lowering the ears, growling, hunkering down to lunge, and more. (actually, almost all dogs will go out of their way to avoid a potential confrontation with a human) These pit bulls have been intentionally bred to give no sign of impending attack. Click the link provided, there is an account of an "expert" who went to investigate a pit bull. The damned dog actually wagged, and whined at the expert, to LURE the man within reach. That's right - display submissive behaviour, to lure the victim within reach. When the unsuspecting victim steps just close enough, lunge for the throat! Consequently, you never know if or when the dog will attack. He will strike when you are least expecting it, taking you totally unawares, and he will destroy you with that strike.

              As I say, the dogs are superb killers. If you need a man killing dog for self-defense or defense of a junk yard or some such, or if you need a military service dog, by all means get a pit bull. But, don't be surprised if that killer one day gets tired of you, and eats your throat out. If you INSIST on keeping the animal as a family pet, be prepared to bury your loved ones.

              I've always lived rather dangerously. Some might call me careless, in view of all the things I've done. But, I draw the line at the pit bulls. I won't have one on the property, and I'll kill any stray that comes by that looks very much like a pit bull. It doesn't even have to actually BE a pit bull. If it looks much like one, I'll put it down just to be sure. Of course, all of the stock breeds from which the pit bull was bred are fighting dogs anyway, all of them potentially dangerous. Each and every one of them are more dangerous than German Shepards. The Pit is the distillation of all of the killing instinct of each and every one of those other fighting breeds.

              If I may borrow a phrase from generations long gone, "The only good Pit Bull is a dead Pit Bull."

              To use your car analogy, you would have to have hundreds of different makes and models of cars. Each of them is more or less safe, but one of those makes stands out as "unsafe at any speed". Ralph Nader singled out the Corvair as being especially dangerous. You see no more Corvairs on the road today - they basically shut the company down.

    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 31 2018, @02:01PM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 31 2018, @02:01PM (#780250)

      Pit bulls can be really nice dogs, but... number of pit bulls owned by neighbors I have personally witnessed mauling other pets to death in the last year: 1, number of other breeds of dogs owned by neighbors I have personally witnessed mauling other pets to death ever: 0.

      Large wild cats can also be really nice pets, until the day they are not. With pit bulls that bad day may only come every 20-30 years, and it may never come for the majority of pit bulls, but 51% is not a good lifetime good behavior ratio.

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Immerman on Monday December 31 2018, @04:55PM

      by Immerman (3985) on Monday December 31 2018, @04:55PM (#780303)

      The same reason I would want to reduce the number of children running around with matches or machetes.

      Doesn't matter how good they are when they're good - sometimes some of *anything* will act badly, and then how much damage they do depends on the weapons at their disposal. For pit bulls that's the body and instincts that come with being originally bred specifically for fighting and killing. When the occasional dog inevitably snaps, killing comes easily to it. Few other breeds are nearly as *potentially* dangerous.