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posted by martyb on Thursday January 03 2019, @04:10PM   Printer-friendly
from the now-you-see-it-now-you-don't dept.

Wired Magazine has an article that some might find interesting.

I was at what should have been a farmers’ market in Berkeley, California, last year when a throng of black-clad antifascists tried to scrap it out with far-right ralliers in the middle of a park named after Martin Luther King Jr. I watched scrawny college students get pummeled by hulking, be-swastika-ed ex-soldiers and ex-law enforcement officers in motorcycle gear. The antifascists’ one reprisal was setting off a homemade smoke bomb, which promptly blew back into their own faces, drawing raucous jeering from the white supremacists. It was as close to a war zone as I ever hope to be, and it was unequivocally a win for the racists.

But then,

It was easy to imagine the Bay Area becoming an extremist battleground—each weekend an opportunity for the next rally turned riot.

That vision has not come to pass. In the long arc of American racism, 2017 saw a sudden spike in visibility, but it was not the beginning of a new era in which people routinely walk the streets advertising their white supremacy. This year has brought the opposite trend: 2018 has been a year of pushing the alt-right and other white nationalist groups back underground, and punishing them for misdeeds committed during their brief moment in the sun. That’s a testament to the strength of the backlash against 2017’s naked racism, and evidence of how costly being openly racist has become—especially on the internet, where it has doomed entire social media platforms to obscurity. This must be counted as a good thing.

Goebbels said, allegedly, "Even if we lose we will win, because our enemies have adopted our methods." Looks like the alt-right is losing.

Regardless of what scaremonger reporters might espouse, the alt-right, as we have come to know it over the last two years, has failed—as extremism researchers always knew it would. But in its place has come something shadowier and far older: an underground white supremacist movement operating on society’s fringes, and a culture that disavows the racists while quietly mainstreaming their ideas.

So here's the point:

The issue, though, is that while there’s satisfaction and schadenfreude in watching these public flounderings, the alt-right doesn’t have to be visible to succeed. In fact, going underground is a return to the status quo for American white supremacy.


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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday January 03 2019, @04:42PM (37 children)

    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday January 03 2019, @04:42PM (#781533) Homepage Journal

    Nice how you just made Goebbels' statement the truth. I needed a good laugh this morning.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by ikanreed on Thursday January 03 2019, @04:47PM (31 children)

    by ikanreed (3164) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 03 2019, @04:47PM (#781537) Journal

    No, sorry, goebbels fucking died, shelled to death by commies near his sad little bunker.

    It's a loser ideology, and claiming they won because they died is fucking bullshit, and you fucking know it. They're only martyrs to the worst, lamest people on the planet, and no one cares.

    "Haha made you kill me by being evil" is only a victory for comic book villains.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by HiThere on Thursday January 03 2019, @05:15PM (25 children)

      by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 03 2019, @05:15PM (#781555) Journal

      That depends on which part of the message you consider important. If you think intolerance is the important part, they won...not perfectly, but society has been a lot less tolerant of a lot of things since then. If you think of them as proponents of centralized control, they won. They're dead, and I sure don't mourn them, but many of the ideas they championed flourish.

      (OTOH, there are reasonable arguments that society was headed in that direction anyway, what with the closing of the frontier, improved centralized communication, faster transport, etc.)

      --
      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @05:48PM (13 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @05:48PM (#781577)

        That depends on which part of the message you consider important. If you think intolerance is the important part, they won...not perfectly, but society has been a lot less tolerant of a lot of things since then.

        Yes, but WHAT things?

        We're less tolerant of people in power raping, assaulting, and harassing women. Check.
        We're less tolerant of racists being racist against our fellow citizens of color. Check.
        We're less tolerant of false equivalencies so often touted by the right. Check.
        We're less tolerant of false dichotomies, also so often touted by the right. Check.
        We're less tolerant of billionaires buying our government and then fucking us over (usually, but not exclusively, through the auspices of the Republican Party). Check.
        We're less tolerant of retrograde republicans trying to force us back into the dark ages of pre-Roe-v-Wade and pre-civili rights laws. Check.

        All of which lead for a far more tolerant society for everyone except ... oh, yeah, the poor, poor racists. Whatever will they do, when the rest of us won't let them bully our fellow neighbors?

        Tolerating this shit is what got us into this mess. While not tolerating it won't be enough to get us out, it's a damn fine first step, and good inoculation against further assaults against our civil society in the future. The racists belong in the closet, long may they rot there.

        • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @06:09PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @06:09PM (#781591)

          We're less tolerant of people in power raping, assaulting, and harassing women. Check. [vox.com]
          We're less tolerant of racists being racist against our fellow citizens of color. Check. [dailywire.com]
          We're less tolerant of false equivalencies so often touted by the right. Check. [wgbh.org]
          We're less tolerant of false dichotomies, also so often touted by the right. Check. [themoderatevoice.com]
          We're less tolerant of billionaires buying our government and then fucking us over (usually, but not exclusively, through the auspices of the Republican Party). Check. [capitalresearch.org]
          We're less tolerant of retrograde republicans trying to force us back into the dark ages of pre-Roe-v-Wade and pre-civili rights laws. Check. [cnn.com]

          What are you?

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @07:24PM (7 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @07:24PM (#781634)

          We're less tolerant of billionaires buying our government and then fucking us over (usually, but not exclusively, through the auspices of the Republican Party). Check

          Yeah, well we are less tolerant of your obvious partisan (equally tribal) bullshit and projection. As far as the deceitful democrats go, the old cliche applies perfectly: With friends like them, who needs enemies? Wittingly or not, the democrats handed the presidency over to this man. I find it very disappointing to see people still support them. Their little billionaires club is no better than the republicans, an fact they are the very same people. So please, save your breath, you're only making it easier for the people and ideas you claim to oppose.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @08:25PM (6 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @08:25PM (#781663)

            Their little billionaires club is no better than the republicans, an fact they are the very same people.

            No, they're not. The Murdochs, DeVosses, the Kochs, the Wynnes, and the rest of the current scum who have taken over our executive branch, and for whom Trump is currently playing bitch, are quite different from the Buffets, Gates, and Soroses.

            Yes, there are billionaires who play both sides (read: "bribe" both sides with campaign contributions), but they're a far cry from the likes of the Kochs et al. Equating the two is another in a plethora of examples of right-wing false equivalencies.

            ,you're only making it easier for the people and ideas you claim to oppose.

            You seem to be doing that job just fine.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by bobmorning on Friday January 04 2019, @12:51AM (4 children)

              by bobmorning (6045) on Friday January 04 2019, @12:51AM (#781808)

              She lost, get over it.

              • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @02:02AM (3 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @02:02AM (#781844)

                Alternatively: they are the good cop bad cop routine of the uniparty, get over it.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @05:23AM (2 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @05:23AM (#781915)

                  Exactly! This is what the dumbass liberals that support democrats don't want to understand. Tell them they're being taken for a ride, and they only dig in. Ol' Bernie Sanders fished 'em in real good.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @06:41PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @06:41PM (#782164)

                    I'd take Sanders in a heartbeat over being suckered by Trump :P

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 05 2019, @09:14AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 05 2019, @09:14AM (#782448)

                      Eh, whatever, everything changes once they get the power. They always find a way to disappoint or enrage. That's how you keep the pendulum swinging. Over and over we repeat the same old bullshit expecting different results.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @05:31AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @05:31AM (#781918)

              This is the expected boilerplate response from not so smart, so-called "liberals" that believe what's in front of the camera is real. They've never been on a set before. They don't know the directors and producers and their minions, only the actors, and only when they're acting.

              My billionaires will kick your billionaires' ass! Nyah!

              Dude, please...

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @08:32PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @08:32PM (#781666)

          You tolerate censorship.
          You tolerate prejudice.
          You tolerate collective responsibility.
          You tolerate discrimination.

          If you dunno what I am talking about, it is grave. If you know what behaviors I might be referring to and dismiss it, it is worse.

          Now, don't get me wrong, I think you are just one of the two barking dogs used to keep sheep in check, the other side is indeed as bad as yours. But at least they tend to admit more openly that might makes right, while your hypocrisy shows every time you deny that the right is totalitarian as you are, but with a national granularity instead of an international one.

        • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @01:46AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @01:46AM (#781835)

          > We're less tolerant of racists being racist against our fellow citizens of color. Check.

          And your words ooze with all that you've been brainwashed by. Neomarxist racism against Whites. Only Whites are your enemy. You are the next generation of Nazis. How much truth has to slap you in the face before you see the evil you are part of?

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 05 2019, @04:57PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 05 2019, @04:57PM (#782541)

            the truth is always a "troll"...

        • (Score: 2, Informative) by Sulla on Friday January 04 2019, @06:08PM

          by Sulla (5173) on Friday January 04 2019, @06:08PM (#782146) Journal

          We're less tolerant of retrograde republicans trying to force us back into the dark ages of pre-Roe-v-Wade and pre-civili rights laws. Check.

          Yeah but we only got there by being more tolerant at defining limits of what makes a human being, ie a person with less than 6 months of development

          We're less tolerant of billionaires buying our government and then fucking us over (usually, but not exclusively, through the auspices of the Republican Party). Check.

          You are blind to the injustices of both sides. The ACA was a huge bailout for the medical corporations who paid billions to Dem politicians. All sides are corrupt here, one side just pretends not to be. So in reality you are more tolerant to corruption as long as its on your side.

          --
          Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by khallow on Friday January 04 2019, @01:56AM (10 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 04 2019, @01:56AM (#781841) Journal

        but society has been a lot less tolerant of a lot of things since then

        Even with the PC police out in force, it's a better and far more tolerant world than it was in the 1930s.

        I wonder why this article is bragging about hypothetically driving a movement underground (even though it's not, of course) rather than years of more profound change, like say 1945? Nah, just kidding. I don't wonder, it's Wired, they've always been at war with Eastasia.

        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday January 04 2019, @06:05AM

          by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 04 2019, @06:05AM (#781930) Journal

          Whether it's better and more tolerant depends on just which things you think are important. E.g., it's less tolerant of personal risk taking. It's more tolerant of centralized control. But it *is* a real question as to whether WWII had any effect on that or not, as it's a continuation of a trend that was in place before then. Should there be a law about seat belts? There are arguments both ways, but before WWII the idea of such a law would have been ridiculous.

          FWIW, racism in the US long predated the Nazis. They acted to put a damper on its public expression for decades by being such a horrible example, but we seem to be heading back to the "status quo ante".

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 2, Troll) by cubancigar11 on Friday January 04 2019, @09:57AM (8 children)

          by cubancigar11 (330) on Friday January 04 2019, @09:57AM (#781981) Homepage Journal

          No, it is not. It is just richer, has more convenience and the problems that 'trigger' people are less severe. But it is not only just as intolerant and bigoted and ignorant, but it is also a lot more dangerous because of globalization of every single fucking confrontation.

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Friday January 04 2019, @01:44PM (4 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 04 2019, @01:44PM (#782022) Journal

            and the problems that 'trigger' people are less severe/quote. Exactly. That for me is the number one sign that we'll improving greatly. They wouldn't be complaining about microaggressions, if there were far more real injustice out there.

            • (Score: 1, Troll) by cubancigar11 on Sunday January 06 2019, @03:54PM (3 children)

              by cubancigar11 (330) on Sunday January 06 2019, @03:54PM (#782766) Homepage Journal

              There are plenty of real injustices out there, though a lot less are losing lives over it. But it has not been due to politicking over those injustices and more due to WW2 showing what it is like to just go all-in, so to say, over identity politics. And make no mistake - these SJWs and libtards and feminists are the real Nazis out here. Anybody who has studied any history knows that people who participated in Nazi atrocities weren't anything special - they were regular people - just unequipped to handle any attack on their belief system and manipulated enough to hate a subclass of their own society, just like the rioters in any riot. There is no difference between a swastika wielding German in 1940 and ikanreed. Plenty people used the opportunity of failing economic might of Germany to heat their own hearth of hatred, fully pushing for economic demise and censorship of the so-called inhouse-enemy, and plenty people are there to do the same in America in a world that is slowly regaining its pre-war position.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 06 2019, @04:49PM (2 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 06 2019, @04:49PM (#782783) Journal

                There are plenty of real injustices out there

                To the contrary, microaggression hysteria indicate that there's not enough real injustices for some people. IMOH it's like autoimmune disease and allergies. These get more common when the human body has less exposure to foreign proteins and such. When the usual suspects are complaining about trivial problems rather than big ones, it indicates to me that we have a lot less big problems than we used to.

                But it has not been due to politicking over those injustices and more due to WW2 showing what it is like to just go all-in, so to say, over identity politics.

                Cause is irrelevant here. Sure, I'd rather that injustices were settled via rational people just deciding to stop rather than killing 100 million people. But the outcome is what we're discussing not the meandering and bloody path that got us here.

                There is no difference between a swastika wielding German in 1940 and ikanreed. Plenty people used the opportunity of failing economic might of Germany to heat their own hearth of hatred, fully pushing for economic demise and censorship of the so-called inhouse-enemy, and plenty people are there to do the same in America in a world that is slowly regaining its pre-war position.

                While that's amusing, I grant that there might be some differences. Still some of the eventual Nazis of the past (Vidkun Quisling being a notable example) hopped around from one authoritarian ideology to another, often for very frivolous reasons, until they happened to pass through the Nazi-space. It may well be that some of these present day, virulent anti-Nazis will switch over to the pure religion once they get insulted or attacked by their fellow travelers, significant other wrecks their car, brain chemistry change, or whatever.

                I'm not sure what we should do about this at-risk group of proto-Nazis. ikanreed after all may stay good and never become a Nazi. One can never tell until the clock runs out.

                • (Score: 1, Troll) by cubancigar11 on Sunday January 06 2019, @05:23PM (1 child)

                  by cubancigar11 (330) on Sunday January 06 2019, @05:23PM (#782795) Homepage Journal

                  Microaggression hysteria isn't actually an issue in the black community, for example. They have got real problems. This shit is just a mating dance between conservatives and feminists and they both don't care about the real issues. You would think that under 2 terms of Mahatma Obama he would have fixed at least some basic issue but no, he was a lawyer chose to run it exactly the way it was being run.

                  The microaggression hysteria is just like the hippy era, really, which is to say that it is largely irrelevant for the ruling class. The undercurrent to that, though, much like the undercurrent behind the hippies, is very real. The latter happened due to the sudden economic abundance of resources just after WW2 when the whole world needed rebuilding and USA was the only country in the position to do it. At that time it was possible to fix a transistor and raise a family. I digress...

                  Today, on the other hand, there is extreme competition everywhere. Government is cutting the education budget every now and then, forcing universities to open fraudulent degrees and courses. Then the people who teach these fraudulent courses such as 'women studies' etc. are spreading their mental illness and moral bankruptcy (which is why they became professors anyway) to the students leading to the microaggression hysteria.

                  Then there is a large amount of female workforce that thinks it is competent because they got good grades for being more obedient than boys come to job market and find that nobody is hiring them, and they are bitching about wage-gap and patriarchy and men instead of bringing about some change in themselves.

                  And then there are men who are losing their jobs, find that their whole city is going to become a ghost town because coal mining is on its way out, and they don't know what to do besides joining the most locally connected political group they know - the local Nazi.

                  As far as ikanreed and his/her ilk are concerned - if you wish death upon someone because of their political standing you are a Nazi. It doesn't matter if you are a communist or not. You are a fucking Nazi. Ask yourself, why were Nazis bad? Were they bad because they opposed socialism or because they killed innocent people? Believe me, the only reason Antifa hasn't killed someone yet is because they are still in power.

                  PS: I am surprised by the discourse here. It is definitely not the group of slashdotters I grew up with. I never thought an attack of freedom of speech will get so much support on slashdot. And I am flabbergasted by the idea that Nazis learning to hide the swastika sign is somehow a good thing according to the liberals. How fucking stupid is that?

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 06 2019, @06:31PM

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 06 2019, @06:31PM (#782812) Journal
                    It's still less objectively as I noted in my first post. Feminism has gained a lot of grounds. Even the US black community is much better off than it was before. Existence of problems is not a sign things are worse -unless there were no problems in the past!

                    As far as ikanreed and his/her ilk are concerned - if you wish death upon someone because of their political standing you are a Nazi. It doesn't matter if you are a communist or not. You are a fucking Nazi. Ask yourself, why were Nazis bad? Were they bad because they opposed socialism or because they killed innocent people? Believe me, the only reason Antifa hasn't killed someone yet is because they are still in power.

                    Good point.

          • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by cubancigar11 on Saturday January 05 2019, @06:40PM (2 children)

            by cubancigar11 (330) on Saturday January 05 2019, @06:40PM (#782579) Homepage Journal

            Modded troll - awww!!! My personal stalker!

            • (Score: 1, Troll) by cubancigar11 on Sunday January 06 2019, @08:27AM (1 child)

              by cubancigar11 (330) on Sunday January 06 2019, @08:27AM (#782705) Homepage Journal

              Hehehehe. TRIGGERED!!! :D

              • (Score: 1, Troll) by cubancigar11 on Sunday January 06 2019, @03:44PM

                by cubancigar11 (330) on Sunday January 06 2019, @03:44PM (#782765) Homepage Journal

                Just in case anyone was wondering if I was wrong and intolerance HAS actually decreased, here is your "on-topic" proof.

                LOL, enjoy your tiniest amount of power. May it help you relax.

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @05:31PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @05:31PM (#781565)

      He committed suicide like the other nazi cowards.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @05:54PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @05:54PM (#781581)

        Yet, Europe is well on it's way to the Third Reich Federation. So uhm.. Next up a Third Reich army. Sadly not as much occult stuff as in the good Nazi stories of Wolfenstein, just a bunch of selfimportant suits running the place. So a correction to the theory could be that any ideology will be met with an anti-ideology re-affirming the same methods and independently of the winning ideology the suits end up running the place.

    • (Score: 0, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday January 03 2019, @08:43PM

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday January 03 2019, @08:43PM (#781670) Homepage Journal

      s/Nazi/Jew/ on your initial post. You still won't see that the unthinking hatred to exactly the same ends is the same but any sane person should.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday January 04 2019, @08:00AM (4 children)

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday January 04 2019, @08:00AM (#781961) Journal

    You might want to go back underground, Uzzard. That little remark makes me think I've somehow overestimated you. If you're with those goose-stepping fucks you can go right to Hell with them.

    --
    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @06:07PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @06:07PM (#782144)

      Sad little mixed up girl, returns to her fears of the afterlife as a rebuttal.

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday January 04 2019, @07:21PM

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday January 04 2019, @07:21PM (#782194) Journal

        I'm not the one who ought to be afraid, "friend." And why? Because I'm making it a point to live a decent life here and now. Are *you* hiding something in your conscience...?

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @06:49PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @06:49PM (#782173)

      I hate to defend the shitbird but he had a point, ikanreed is advocating genocide of nasty people which is what the Nazis themselves did.

      I think Goebbel's statement is stupid anyway because "genocidal maniacs should not be allowed to live" is pretty different from "jews, blacks and gays should not be allowed to live" but I don't think advocating genocide is ever a good solution. We must push back against the neo-nazi shitheads but please avoid violence.

      Shirtbird does seem to always be defending the worst of the worst while remaining silent on other acts of shittiness. Guess he's only concerned about the oppression of white conservative males

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @08:45PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @08:45PM (#782225)

        Nazism is not a race, or any other thing like it. It is a choice. And it is a choice to die for, and many Nazis already did, and we seem to have a few more who require the same services. Executing "nasty people" is not genocide, it is justice. Nice try at a false equivalence, shissen nazi!