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Wired Magazine has an article that some might find interesting.
I was at what should have been a farmers’ market in Berkeley, California, last year when a throng of black-clad antifascists tried to scrap it out with far-right ralliers in the middle of a park named after Martin Luther King Jr. I watched scrawny college students get pummeled by hulking, be-swastika-ed ex-soldiers and ex-law enforcement officers in motorcycle gear. The antifascists’ one reprisal was setting off a homemade smoke bomb, which promptly blew back into their own faces, drawing raucous jeering from the white supremacists. It was as close to a war zone as I ever hope to be, and it was unequivocally a win for the racists.
But then,
It was easy to imagine the Bay Area becoming an extremist battleground—each weekend an opportunity for the next rally turned riot.
That vision has not come to pass. In the long arc of American racism, 2017 saw a sudden spike in visibility, but it was not the beginning of a new era in which people routinely walk the streets advertising their white supremacy. This year has brought the opposite trend: 2018 has been a year of pushing the alt-right and other white nationalist groups back underground, and punishing them for misdeeds committed during their brief moment in the sun. That’s a testament to the strength of the backlash against 2017’s naked racism, and evidence of how costly being openly racist has become—especially on the internet, where it has doomed entire social media platforms to obscurity. This must be counted as a good thing.
Goebbels said, allegedly, "Even if we lose we will win, because our enemies have adopted our methods." Looks like the alt-right is losing.
Regardless of what scaremonger reporters might espouse, the alt-right, as we have come to know it over the last two years, has failed—as extremism researchers always knew it would. But in its place has come something shadowier and far older: an underground white supremacist movement operating on society’s fringes, and a culture that disavows the racists while quietly mainstreaming their ideas.
So here's the point:
The issue, though, is that while there’s satisfaction and schadenfreude in watching these public flounderings, the alt-right doesn’t have to be visible to succeed. In fact, going underground is a return to the status quo for American white supremacy.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @05:49PM (14 children)
Is alt-right more violent? Or are the antifa members? Which gets the most accurate press and reporting?
To start, neither is "good". We would be better off without both of them. I don't support either.
In the press that I follow, Antifa is by far the most prevalent aggressor. As above, alt-right isn't blameless. But I've seen the Antifa idiots doing things that are just not right in a civilized society. Attacking cars on the freeway due to a bumper sticker they didn't like, for instance. The main stream press does not report on these two groups fairly or equally. If you disagree with that, you need to do more research outside of the main stream press.
Antifa is just as unacceptable as the violent alt-right. We should reject both.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @06:34PM (3 children)
Antifa is just as unacceptable as the violent alt-right. We should reject both.
Antifa, as portrayed by the right wingnuts of America, should be rejected along with fascism.
Antifa, as they actually exist, aren't nearly as bad as they are portrayed. Yes, there are a few bad actors (like there are in any significant group), although it is unclear whether they are actually antifa, agent provocateurs, or (as has already been shown in a number of cases) completely made up events that didn't actually happen.
What is clear is that, while any violence should be eschewed and condemned, standing up to fascism should neither be eschewed or condemned, nor should we engage in false equivalencies by claiming antifa are "just as bad" as the fascists. As far as I know, antifa haven't run over a protester and killed her, or done any number of other things the fascists have been emboldened to do under the current regime. They shouldn't get a free pass when they do step out of line, but neither should they be thought of as anything remotely like the fascists they condemn.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @06:52PM (2 children)
Such as? And how many wake up calls [nationalreview.com] do you need?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @07:27PM (1 child)
Lame, you can't even acknowledge the real problem and instead wish to focus on the virtually non-existent problem. Are you suggesting we throw anyone who calls themselves Antifa in prison so they can't possibly hurt any Nazis? If so then I suggest we immediately do the same for the alt-right Nazi wannabes. I guess that means you go to prison right about meow.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @07:59PM
No need to be catty!
Your ableist slur aside, those considering felony assault against their perceived political opponents should be 5150'd [ca.gov] That would be you!
(Score: 3, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Thursday January 03 2019, @07:15PM (1 child)
Is alt-right more violent? Or are the antifa members?
The Alt-Right, BY FAR.
Most US terrorist attacks last year were committed by the Alt-Right.
Heather Heyer was murdered by the Alt-Right.
Name a single instance of those scary Antifas killing someone.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @08:00PM
Name a single instance of those scary Antifas killing someone.
That's because Antifas are ninjas. They slip away in the night and don't leave calling cards. The other side makes their dicks hard by keeping score.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 03 2019, @08:05PM
Ivan why do you have a antifa twitter account if you hate antifa so much?
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday January 03 2019, @08:59PM (5 children)
This is hard to measure, but you're probably wrong. The reason it's hard to measure is because both alt-right and anti-fa people will tend to pretend their violent actors aren't a part of their group because they know it's bad PR. However, based on what we know:
1. Body count: Antifa, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't murdered anybody. The alt-right has.
2. Beatings, assaults, and other non-lethal violent crime: As best as I can tell, in the absence of gathered statistics I could see, a substantially larger number of assaults, beatings, etc were from the alt-right.
3. Weapons brought to demonstrations: Antifa has been known to use blunt objects as weapons. The alt-right has brought guns to their rallies and fired them.
Therefor, an accurate conclusion is that antifa is violent (e.g. the guy who punched Richard Spencer), but the alt-right is substantially more violent, unless your sources have some huge number of confirmed antifa-related assaults and murders I and the sources I looked at are unaware of.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Friday January 04 2019, @12:50AM
I would say that the "alt-right" isn't "more violent", but that they are "more effectively violent". That is, antifa WANTS TO BE violent, but the opposite side UNDERSTANDS violence.
Then, there is the underdog thing. When antifa gets their asses whipped, they win on public sentiment.
And, that brings me back to the ongoing rant from one of our members about civil war. Portions of the left think that civil war might be the answer, but those portions of the left have no idea what civil war will be like. When I spell out what civil war would be like, then I am evil for spelling it out.
The right, as well as the extreme right, holds pretty much all of those weapons that America is known for. 300,000,000 firearms owned by private citizens in this country, and almost all of those private citizens range from centrists to extreme far right. Lefties don't think anyone should own weapons, so they don't own any of those millions of weapons. But - they think it might be time for a civil war.
Antifa and the hardcore Redneck Revolt don't have the numbers or the firepower to carry that civil war very far.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @12:55AM (3 children)
Wrong and who is the alt-right? Most clashes are between Antifa and the Proud Boys which featured so many non-white members it would be incorrect to associate them with white nationalism. Antifa turn up at Trump marches in huge numbers, with their faces covered; to throw m80s, bricks and urine at people. They attack in groups, dragging people into the crowd and beating them with weapons. They are cowards.
The event described in this article was the a pro free speech rally held in response to the Antifa violence at a planned Milo talk where the police stood back as Antifa assaulted defenseless attendees. At this rally, antifa stormed across the park in a line to confront Trump supporters (and pro free speech liberals). After Trump supporters amassed in opposition, Antifa retreated to the road and skirmishes followed. Finally, Antifa retreated to a crossroads where the hail of bricks, glass bottles and fireworks gave way to a smoke bomb they threw while the wind was against them. They ran and the Trump supporters chased them down.
It's not who is more violent but who is the most capable when it comes to violence. Who is more justified? Those who defend liberty against a gang of masked thugs or those who turn up in numbers wearing masks to intimidate and attack people? The violence could be avoided entirely if the police did their jobs because there is no more legal right for Antifa style political intimidation than there would be for National Socialists or the KKK to go around assaulting people. Label Antifa a terrorist group and have done with it before more of these idiots get seriously hurt!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @02:21AM
It's like you're using the same madlib you filled in for Muslim rapists.
You must travel a lot.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday January 04 2019, @03:13AM (1 child)
Ergo, you should be a backer of those 15 hijackers who managed to kill thousands of people using simple box-cutters. That's pretty darn capable.
Somehow, I'm guessing those aren't the "good guys" in your worldview.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @02:02PM
"15 hijackers"
Those 15 jewish-controlled "hijackers" were incapable of flying planes. They didn't fly planes, you were looking the other way and the jews won. They were seen cheering, celebrating and recording the event on film.
http://rediscover911.com/international-zionism-did-911-23-facts/ [rediscover911.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 04 2019, @01:51PM
"neither is "good". We would be better off without both of them"
Right, center and left are relative. There will always be right and left.
Violence is something that has to go. But unfortunately the left has always been violent. It is a historical fact.