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Commentary at Salon!
Should you believe in a God? Not according to most academic philosophers. A comprehensive survey revealed that only about 14 percent of English speaking professional philosophers are theists. As for what little religious belief remains among their colleagues, most professional philosophers regard it as a strange aberration among otherwise intelligent people. Among scientists the situation is much the same. Surveys of the members of the National Academy of Sciences, composed of the most prestigious scientists in the world, show that religious belief among them is practically nonexistent, about 7 percent.
[...] Now nothing definitely follows about the truth of a belief from what the majority of philosophers or scientists think. But such facts might cause believers discomfort. There has been a dramatic change in the last few centuries in the proportion of believers among the highly educated in the Western world. In the European Middle Ages belief in a God was ubiquitous, while today it is rare among the intelligentsia. This change occurred primarily because of the rise of modern science and a consensus among philosophers that arguments for the existence of gods, souls, afterlife and the like were unconvincing. Still, despite the view of professional philosophers and world-class scientists, religious beliefs have a universal appeal. What explains this?
[...] First, if you defend such beliefs by claiming that you have a right to your opinion, however unsupported by evidence it might be, you are referring to a political or legal right, not an epistemic one. You may have a legal right to say whatever you want, but you have epistemic justification only if there are good reasons and evidence to support your claim. If someone makes a claim without concern for reasons and evidence, we should conclude that they simply don't care about what's true. We shouldn't conclude that their beliefs are true because they are fervently held.
Another problem is that fideism—basing one's beliefs exclusively on faith—makes belief arbitrary, leaving no way to distinguish one religious belief from another. Fideism allows no reason to favor your preferred beliefs or superstitions over others. If I must accept your beliefs without evidence, then you must accept mine, no matter what absurdity I believe in. But is belief without reason and evidence worthy of rational beings? Doesn't it perpetuate the cycle of superstition and ignorance that has historically enslaved us? I agree with W.K. Clifford. "It is wrong always, everywhere and for everyone to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." Why? Because your beliefs affect other people, and your false beliefs may harm them.
I am checking to see what the Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster has to say about all this.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 21 2019, @01:21AM (35 children)
You want a real answer? Well - it's all right there in their Koran. Anyone who leaves the faith is to be put to death. It's really that simple. The priesthood pries into every person's life, looking for anything "wrong" that they can punish, thus bolstering their authority. And, it's not just authority, it's real power too. The priests, or imams, maintain a "morality police" to ensure they can pry into people's lives.
As much as people enjoy comparing Judaism and Christianity to Islam, their books don't justify executing someone who leaves the faith.
Islam isn't going to come into the 21st century peacefully. They will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, every inch of the way.
It is 2019 and women are finally allowed to drive without a chauffer, and more, without a curfew - https://www.dw.com/en/saudi-women-celebrate-lifting-of-ban-with-midnight-drive/av-44371045 [dw.com] Click the link, and just admire that shining face of a young female, out after midnight, driving. She has almost literally been released from prison. Before you pooh-pooh that comparison, look back in our own history, and see how access to automobiles changed our own culture.
But, it isn't all roses. You can bet both cheeks of your ass that the aforementioned "morality police" will be watching these girls and young women. It won't be long before some chick is beheaded for the outrageous sin of slowing down to look at some hot hunk walking down the street.
As for intelligence - no. I've never found any reason to believe they aren't intelligent. They just don't seem to pursue academics like we do. Allahu Akbar is good enough for them. The really bright people go to college, and pursue a career, but they don't waste a lot of time like we do. What need is there to question how the universe works, when we can put our faith in Allah? Why bother to strain the brain?
(Score: 5, Touché) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 21 2019, @01:38AM (31 children)
Boy it's a good thing Judaism and Christianity were never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever anything like this, nor is anyone from either of those two religions trying to impose theocracy anywhere in the world. Isn't it?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 5, Informative) by NotSanguine on Monday January 21 2019, @03:43AM (19 children)
Actually, Judaism doesn't try to impose anything on non-jews. And even with other Jewst, they mostly just guilt you if you don't get with the program.
Jews believe that they are the chosen people. As such, they don't try to pull others in, they don't proselytize (except to other jews) and they certainly don't force non-jews to live by their rules. In fact, if you're not a Jew, they really don't want you.
It is possible to convert, but they don't make it easy to do and they'll never force anyone to do so. They don't want you.
Christians, on the other hand, have a long history of intimidation, forced conversion and torture.
Just wanted to set the record straight.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Monday January 21 2019, @07:19AM (16 children)
[quote]Judaism doesn't try to impose anything on non-jew.[/quote]
Well that certainly is not true. They have plenty to say about non-jews in their holy texts. Not much of it is nice either.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 21 2019, @07:39AM (1 child)
SHUT IT DOWN
(Score: 2) by Demena on Tuesday January 22 2019, @01:56AM
Why?
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday January 21 2019, @03:42PM (9 children)
Please. Give ma an example of any of that sort of stuff (batshit crazy conspiracy theories aside) that Jews (not Israel. Not Israelis -- they are a minority of the world's jews, in case you didn't know) have/are purported (without evidence) doing that weren't already long past oral traditions more than 2500 years ago.
Please, do tell.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 21 2019, @07:24PM (1 child)
Anytime anybody complains about Israel they are called antisemetic, so they themselves say Jews are Israelies and Israelis are Jews.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 21 2019, @07:57PM
Really? I'm a Jew and definitely not an Israeli. Also I find that the paranoia (which isn't completely unjustified) of many Israelis foments hatred and violence against those who complain about how the the Israeli state treats other humans. I think such treatment is cruel and vicious. It disgusts me.
And I know many other jews who feel this way.
What's more, something like 20% of Israelis aren't Jewish [wikipedia.org].
I don't believe I've ever been called an anti-semite, mostly because I'm not. But perhaps you could do so and thus fulfill your own pronouncement. It won't have the weight of being factual, but I'm sure it will make you feel much better.
As a bit of unsolicited advice, it's a poor idea to paint people with a broad brush, as you'll usually find that you're flat wrong. Perhaps one should evaluate others based on the content of their character rather than their ethnicity, skin color, or (non)-adherence to demonstrably false belief systems. Just a crazy thought.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 21 2019, @10:16PM (6 children)
Have you ever read the Talmud, or listened to the real hard-liners not just in Israel but right here in the US, in this case the hardcore Orthodox in Brooklyn not an hour away on the subway from where I grew up?
The Abrahamic religions are *poison,* end of story. The only reason the Jews do so little damage compared to the Christians and the Muslims is how few of them there are.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Informative) by NotSanguine on Tuesday January 22 2019, @01:13AM (5 children)
Yup. I've even been in the Mitzvah Tank [wikipedia.org]. They used to hang out down around Union Square when I was in high school, which was just a few blocks away.
I never said that Abrahamic religions (or any demonstrably false belief system) were good. What I said is that Jews don't go out of their way to press others (except other jews) and that includes the Lubavitchers and their ilk) to do things "their" way. They don't proselytize or attempt forced conversions. Nor do they attempt to punish or do violence to non-jews for not adhering to jewish law. And they, in fact, have *never* done so, unlike the Christians and Muslims.
And it's not because there aren't so many jews (~17 million worldwide), it's because they believe that they are the chosen people who have a covenant with Jahweh. So, if you're not a jew, they don't care. if you are a jew (and I've had both conservative and orthodox folks do this), they push you to be more religious. But if you're not a jew, they have no interest in your religious life. Full stop.
I'm an atheist myself, but am ethnically jewish (Ashkenazi on both sides) and grew up in a jewish household. As such, I was much, much less than an hour away by subway from jewish life and, less than an hour by subway from Borough Park or Crown Heights too.
and so, dear Azuma: Hah! What know you of jewish? For fifty-two years have I been jewish. My own counsel will I keep on what it is to be Jewish. (with apologies to Yoda).
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday January 22 2019, @02:02AM (4 children)
Fair enough. I will confess I pay much more attention to the historical part of Jewish history, especially the pre-Exilic component, than the modern. It comes from well over a decade of counter-apologia study which was aimed at Islam and Christianity, with the idea that one must know the roots of a problem to combat the branches.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday January 22 2019, @02:55AM (3 children)
That's a reasonable approach. Although (as I'm sure you're well aware) that much of the Pentateuch [wikipedia.org] or Torah contains oral histories pulled from many civilizations of the prehistoric fertile crescent.
In fact, the traditions and practices of the Jewish (although they didn't call themselves that back then) weren't even written down as the Torah/Pentateuch until the Babylonian exile [wikipedia.org] (ca. 600BCE), some 700-800 years after the construction of The Tabernacle, and ~450 years after the construction of the first Temple [wikipedia.org] in Jerusalem.
rabbinical Judaism [wikipedia.org] didn't evolve until a thousand years after the destruction of the first temple.
As was the case for most of human history, life back then was generally harsh, brutish and short. As such, it's unsurprising that there would be tales of violence, oppression and cruelty.
Oral histories are long-term games of telephone. Given that the stories in the Torah/Pentateuch weren't written down for 800-1000 years (possibly more) and included stories from Babylonian (the great flood story, thinly disguised portions of the Epic of Gilgamesh, etc.) and other cultures of the ancient fertile crescent, it's not a reliable historical source.
For example, archaeological evidence points to the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah being primarily agrarian, with Jerusalem (even in the time of Solomon) little more than a village, and a backwater in comparison to the cities of the Egyptians, Akkadians, Babylonians, etc.
As such, it's highly unlikely that the ancient jews were as powerful, warlike or special as the Torah/Pentateuch makes them out to be.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday January 22 2019, @04:46PM (2 children)
In meatspace, no, but the later Abrahamic religions explicitly justify themselves and their horrors and the same from their God on these stories. Nowhere in the Bible or the Koran does Yahweh disavow what was done in, for example, Canaan in Numbers 31. The fish may stink from the head, but the tree rots from the root, and what we have here is a God who brags about cultural destruction, genocide, and sex slavery. Same guy in all three religions. More than anything else, what proves Islam and Christianity are rotten is what they came from. I am surprised, dismayed, and slightly disoriented at how many people are willing to give Judaism a free pass here...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday January 22 2019, @09:14PM (1 child)
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Please help me understand.
Are you agreeing with me that the Abrahamic religions are all demonstrably false belief systems and, as such, don't have much value in today's world?
Are you decrying Judaism, Christianity and Islam as lousy systems of belief and thought? I can get behind that. However, there's a difference between Islam and a muslim, Christianity and a christian or Judaism and a jew.
I don't paint people with such a broad brush. Most folks are reasonably decent, even if they do subscribe to false belief systems.
Yes, there are assholes *everywhere*. They are (relatively speaking) quite small in number and do an outsized amount of damage to societies, cultures and other humans.
While I don't subscribe to demonstrably false belief systems, I don't believe that those who currently do should be judged based on mostly fictional "historical" accounts found in the foundation documents for those systems.
Are you saying we need to punish (with intolerance? Discrimination? Prison? Torture? Up against the wall?) folks who subscribe to demonstrably false belief systems simply because they do so? If so, you are no better than those who call for such action because they don't subscribe to a particular belief system.
Rail against Abrahamic religions as demonstrably false? I'm all over it.
Decry those who would harm others based on those belief systems? I'll help.
Demonize those who harm no one and only wish to live a halfway decent life, just because they hold beliefs different (and abhorrent to you) from yours? That makes you just as intolerant as the Spanish Inquisition, the Puritans, ISIL or the Westboro Baptist Church, and I won't be part of that.
Freedom of thought and expression aren't concepts that only apply to ideas that are comfortable for you.
I'm not saying all this to insult or demean you, Azuma. Quite the contrary. Over the years, I've found you to be, for the most part, someone who is generally decent and wishes to see the world, and the people who live in it, become kinder and more tolerant. Rather, I seek to understand your point of view and engage in discussion.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday January 23 2019, @07:26AM
Don't worry, I'm not the kind of sick fuck who would torture or kill others over their beliefs...though I *do* think everyone who believes in eternal Hell should spend 30 seconds on fire for the purpose of giving them some perspective on what it is they say they believe :)
That said, I really wish stupid were painful. Like, to the stupid, not to everyone else around them.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 21 2019, @09:54PM (3 children)
And you should not advocate boycotting Israel academically, athletically, or economically, because of their treatment of Palestinians.
(Score: 1) by redneckmother on Tuesday January 22 2019, @02:52AM (2 children)
Please understand that this is an honest question, and please don't read anything into it... I'm merely asking out of curiosity, and lack of comprehension of the discussion... perhaps because of my intellectual weakness in following or understanding...
"Why?"
Please elucidate, and simplify for a poor mind...
Mas cerveza por favor.
(Score: 2) by Demena on Tuesday January 22 2019, @04:11AM
Because you will be labeled as anti-semetic and lose Jewish friends by suggesting that the treatment of Palestians is unfair.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday January 23 2019, @10:32PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_for_Prevention_of_Damage_to_State_of_Israel_through_Boycott [wikipedia.org]
Application
The first lawsuit filed under the law was in 2018 by Shurat HaDin, an Israeli civil rights group, claiming $13,000 in "emotional damages" on behalf of three Israeli teenagers who had bought tickets for a show that was cancelled after a call to boycott. It was the first time to have been successfully applied, due to the difficulty of proving a direct link between a call to boycott and any actual damage caused by it.[12][13]
In October 2018, the Jerusalem Magistrate's Court ruled in favor of the plaintiffs and ordered that the two New Zealand activists pay NIS 45,000 ($12,300) in damages to the plaintiffs' "artistic welfare", and court fees.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 5, Funny) by turgid on Monday January 21 2019, @09:21AM (1 child)
"Fascists go around dressed in black telling people what to do whereas priests..." -- Father Ted.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Kalas on Tuesday January 22 2019, @07:40PM
I can't deny a +1 Funny to anyone who appreciates Father Ted.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Sulla on Monday January 21 2019, @04:56AM (5 children)
Yeah, and civilization broke the back Christianity and will eventually break the back of Judaism. Islam was looking real great and progressive compared to the other two religions "of the book" until the Mongol hoards pushed them to extinction and they moved from being a religion of knowledge and peace to being a religion of incest and war. The problem with Islam is that its reformation is pushing it further into the crazy.
Christians did bad stuff in the past, but they are pretty much tamed now and the ones that are crazy like the Westborough Baptist Church for example, are well hated by literally everyone. The highest level of intolerance we see from the crazy Jehovah Witnesses is ignoring my no solicitation sign and knocking on my door. I am not a huge fan of Mormons but the height of their religious madness was making their own version of the Boyscouts so that they didn't have to have gay troop leaders. I am not a fan of over-religious people as I find them annoying, but they are pretty much de-fanged.
Islam as it currently stands is incompatible with our western enlightenment ideals. Here in the west we like women having the right to work, drive cars, and choose who they want to marry. I'm not a fan of women (or men) being promiscuous, but I also don't think they should be stoned to death for it. I think that a woman being beaten by her husband, father, or boyfriend should have legal protection and a way to get out of the situation. I don't think that women should be guilted into committing suicide for "shaming the family" because someone outside the family caught a glimpse of her bear ankles. I prefer to keep the advances that we have here in the west.
The absolute most extremist Christians and Jews in the US aren't trying to take women's rights away. I heard my grandma a few times say that women's place is in the home and they should not be working, but she didn't think the 19th should be repealed.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 21 2019, @06:49PM (1 child)
>bear ankles.
I'm not sure, but that does look very scary to me.
(Score: 1) by ChrisMaple on Tuesday January 22 2019, @01:47AM
They're related to rabbit's feet; considered lucky.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Kalas on Monday January 21 2019, @07:02PM
To be fair, if I saw a woman with bear ankles I might have a problem with it too.
(Score: 3, Touché) by aristarchus on Monday January 21 2019, @07:12PM
Bear angles? Nothing compared to the Hoarding Mongols coming across our room and boarders to rape our gerbils!!
A gentle plea for spelling on SN? Awareness of homophones? Raises the level of panic, fear, and hysteria, just a little.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 21 2019, @10:26PM
Cornered animals are dangerous, and we have a ratshit-insane Dominionist cohort trying to take over the US government. They're already halfway there honestly; just listen to Pompeo, for example.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 21 2019, @07:52AM (1 child)
There is that bit about suffer not a witch to live amongst you. I can see how you'd resent that.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 21 2019, @10:23PM
No, no, no, I *fight* witches. So long as my Soul Gem stays at least somewhat shiny I'm not a witch myself, though you could argue the way these things work makes me a type of lich.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 21 2019, @08:16AM
Christians have a lot of bad shit in their history - but they can't justify it with the New Testament Bible. In fact, it's hard to find justification in the Old Testament. The Jews were ordered to kill every man, woman, and child in Canaan - Christians weren't ordered to kill every man, woman, and child in Indiana, or Arizona, or anywhere else. How many Trails of Tears were the Indians subjected to by the white man? Lots more than just the one we acknowledge.
(Score: 2) by Demena on Tuesday January 22 2019, @12:15AM (1 child)
Please check your history books. And then see if you can repeat your statement with a clear conscience. It is false in all respects.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday January 22 2019, @02:13AM
That was what we in the business refer to as "sarcasm," you know. I am well aware of what kind of genocides and violence, internal and externalized, Judaism and Christianity have lead to. It was reading about the Inquisition at the ripe old age of 9 that got me to questioning in the first place.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 21 2019, @09:10AM
Is this the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland you're talking about?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 21 2019, @11:45PM
There's a book I recommend that should appeal to any nerd called "The Bad-Ass Librarians of Timbuktu".
For centuries there has been a split in Islam between an obscurantist and tyrannical strain and a humanitarian, open, and education-valuing strain. That book describes how the two kept winning and losing in Mali.
Getting back to the subject, Nobel Prize winner Abdus Salam cited his Muslim faith as a motivation for doing research. That's an example of one side, and the riots that greeted him in his native Pakistan were an example of the other.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday January 22 2019, @12:50AM
Miami Beach is a fun place to study practical Judaism. The whole population wrestles with "how Jewish am I?" Nobody practices 100% strict, not if they're honest with themselves, but there are a lot who come close. Then, the majority are somewhere on the spectrum between: will drive a car on Saturday and will eat Bacon-Cheeseburgers seven days a week. Often they shift at various points in their lives. Knew a "rebel girl" in college who became a born-again Jew somewhere around Junior year, terribly disappointing to me, she was actually interesting to talk to before that happened, afterwards it was all self-examination and explanation of her newfound faith.
🌻🌻 [google.com]