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posted by martyb on Friday January 25 2019, @01:00PM   Printer-friendly
from the getting-along-with-others dept.

[Update 20190127_200249 UTC: corrected number of downmods to qualify for mod bomb from 4 to 5. Clarified that no mod bans have been handed out in a long while. --martyb]

Our primary goal at SoylentNews is to provide a forum for the community; In as much as is reasonably possible, we try to take a hands-off approach.

The infrastructure provides a means by which the community can (among other things) vote on polls, publish journal articles, submit comments, and perform moderations.

There are, however, some things that require an active role by the admins.

One of these is dealing with moderation abuse, something which can come in different forms. See the FAQ for some background. Addressed there are "mod bombs" and "spam mods". A mod bomb is deemed to have happened when one user (user1) has performed 4 5 or more downmods against comments by another user (user2). Upon review, if a mod bomb has been found to occur, then the moderator (user1) gets a 1-month mod ban on the first occasion; 6 months on the second and subsequent times. Mod bans have not been issued in a LONG while; extra mods are reversed.

Sockpuppets: And now we come to the focus of this article: there is another form of moderation abuse: sockpuppet accounts. Wikipedia has a suitable description:

A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term, a reference to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock, originally referred to a false identity assumed by a member of an Internet community who spoke to, or about, themselves while pretending to be another person.[1]

The term now includes other misleading uses of online identities, such as those created to praise, defend or support a person or organization,[2] to manipulate public opinion,[3] or to circumvent a suspension or ban from a website. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym[4] and the creation of a sockpuppet is that the sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer. Sockpuppets are unwelcome in many online communities and may be blocked.

Right here I'll admit that I was sorely tempted to take unilateral action. Name names. Apply mod bans. And... you get the idea. Instead, I'm trying to take the high road. So, instead, I chose to present what I found to the community, solicit input, and then see what, if anything, needs to be done.

There may well be other cases, but the one I have discovered shows this history of upmods. Out of the 100 most recent moderations performed by "user1", 80 of those have been upmods of the same user "user2". And of these, there have been 10 upmods on January 21, 10 more on January 22, and yet 10 more on January 23. (For those keeping score that is 30 points in 3 days).

I cannot imagine in any way that 30 upmods in three days by "user1" on "user2" is reasonable or desirable.

This would be purely academic except that comment moderation affects a user's karma. All registered users start with a karma of 0. Submitting a story that is accepted on the site earns 3 points. Each upmod to a comment of yours earns a point. Similarly, each downmod deducts a point from your karma. Get enough karma and when posting a comment you can give it extra visibility so that it starts at a score of 2 instead of at 1. (Comments posted anonymously or by ACs start at 0.) Get a low enough karma and you earn a "timeout" against posting comments for a month.

Inasmuch as "user1" was able to perform 80 upmods of "user2" in 19 days ("user2" had hovered near the karma cap of 50 when this all started), that means that "user2" received approximately 80 downmods from the community. Excluding the actions of our sockpuppet ("user1"), "user2" should have been in negative karma and thus in a month-long "timeout".

What I see is that the community has spoken (the comments posted by "user2" are not of the kind the community wants to see on the site) and that has been intentionally countered by the sockpuppet activity of "user1".

Rather than the admins taking a unilateral action, I am asking the community what should be done in this case (and any others like it that may come up)?

I offer a proposal that is analogous to our handling of a "mod bomb."

What is a mod bomb? Four (4) or more downmods in 24 hours by "user1" against comments posted by "user2". qualifies as a mod bomb and earns "user1" a 1-month moderation ban (initially; subsequent mod bombs earn a 6-month mod ban) It's been a long time since mod bans have been issued..

Proposed: Four (4) or more upmods in 24 hours should also be considered a mod bomb (sock bomb?) and should receive the same treatment.

The point of moderation is not to bestow karma points, it is to help improve the visibility of well-written comments and reduce the visibility of the lesser ones. The karma is simply an incentive to actually perform the moderations.

I've toyed with various values for number of upmods per unit of time (4 per day? 20 per week?) I keep coming back to the same metric we use for our existing "mod bomb" definition: 4 down mods in one 24-hour span that commences when mod points are handed out at 00:10 UTC.

So, now it's your turn. I'd appreciate your feedback and thoughts on this. If we should choose to implement it, it would probably have a soft launch with any "violations" being met with a warning.

Ultimately, it's your site. How do you want us to deal with sockpuppets?


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  • (Score: 2) by takyon on Friday January 25 2019, @04:56PM (3 children)

    by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Friday January 25 2019, @04:56PM (#791866) Journal

    Animated non-anime movies bad!

    Is that a thing?

    reddits' up/down vote system is TRASH and it BELONGS IN THE GARBAGE.

    You cherry picked 3 personal examples out of potentially, what, billions?

    Example 1 has score hidden still so we can't confirm. Probably it got lost among the 771 other comments.

    Example 2 is bad since you came into the discussion 6 days late, when nobody is paying attention to it probably.

    Example 3 is at +9-10, and includes another comment of yours at +17. Expecting hundreds or thousands of upvotes on your comment is probably unrealistic. I'm not sure which provably wrong comment you're referring to because I see score +5 for the comment you replied to. Reddit doesn't report real scores btw, they are offset by some amount as an anti-abuse tactic.

    It's easy to find low scores you think are unjustified in any comment system. It just happens. There are various factors involved and not every comment can be a viral hit. I don't think you've proven that Plebbit vote system bad whatsoever, and over the past couple of years I have found myself wondering how Reddit's system could be better than our own. If we wanted to test it here, it could even be run in parallel: just keep the old system with moderation reasons, but with unlimited Agree/Disagree mods to produce user scores. Then compare to see if the "best" comments are getting consistently high scores, and vice versa.

    --
    [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    Starting Score:    1  point
    Karma-Bonus Modifier   +1  

    Total Score:   2  
  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by SunTzuWarmaster on Friday January 25 2019, @05:39PM (2 children)

    by SunTzuWarmaster (3971) on Friday January 25 2019, @05:39PM (#791896)

    3 examples in the last week. I have 5K karma on a 4 year old account, and have been gilded twice. According to this graph (http://puu.sh/AsOo3/1a46334ca4.png), that puts me in the top 20% of users by total karma. I'm a generally helpful guy. I've had 6 100+ karma posts, one of which was viral-ish at 700 upvotes. I've been modded-to-oblivion 23 times, primarily for making off-color jokes in the /r/jokes section (WTF?).

    Reddit's system is really really good at getting the pageviews right - the things that show up in best/hot at things that people are talking about.

    Reddit's system is truly awful at having good discourse. Consider this thread - https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/airguq/government_employees_that_voted_for_trump_what/?sort=top [reddit.com]
    53K upvotes, nearly none of it for Trump supporters. Trump supporters, even when asked a direct question, were modded to oblivion.
    Consider this answer - https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/airguq/government_employees_that_voted_for_trump_what/eeq9852 [reddit.com] - this user lost ~6 months of positive karma for answering the question that was asked in /r/askreddit. Note that I found that post by doing a "sort by controversial", so he is getting roughly as many upvotes as downvotes. There are almost certainly people at the bottom of "sort by best" whose opinions are just beyond saving, and were permanently punished for it.

    The "chilling effect" there is substantial. You CANNOT say anything against the majority and preserve status. Note that negative karma accounts are essentially blocked in all of reddit due to the laziness of moderators. Also note that, even when moderators are not lazy, negative karma accounts are limited in abilities to the subreddit that they posted to. The user who got that negative karma blow for "I think the president is doing a fine job" will be subject to limitations in /r/askreddit essentially forever (he got more negative karma there in the last 2 days than I had on my entire account for 2 years). So it ends up being hard to just "have negative status". Note that I've been banned from a couple of places on reddit and I'm relatively uncontroversial.

    Reddits' up/down vote system manages to simultaneously silence discussion, enforce mob rule and groupthink, and provides disincentive to thoughtfulness. It really is pretty awful. Every subreddit ends up being a circlejerk as a byproduct. Soylent/Slashdot have much better systems (capping max moderation up and down is really good in preventing groupthink, a user community which doesn't rally use moderation is another), but they are systems better suitted to a community which is smaller.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 25 2019, @09:28PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 25 2019, @09:28PM (#792022)

      this user lost ~6 months of positive karma for answering the question that was asked in /r/askreddit

      Looking at his user info, he apparently purchased a "Reddit Premium" subscription this month. Maybe that will help avoid the consequences of negative karma.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 26 2019, @12:48AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 26 2019, @12:48AM (#792125)

      Groupthink