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posted by martyb on Wednesday February 13 2019, @01:22AM   Printer-friendly
from the cell-ular-automaton dept.

March: We Are Legion (We Are Bob) (Bobiverse #1) by Dennis Taylor

Discuss The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein in the comments below.

Fiasco was translated into English in 1988 by Michael Kandel:

Fiasco (Polish: Fiasko) is a science fiction novel by Polish author Stanisław Lem, first published in a German translation in 1986. The book, published in Poland the following year, is a further elaboration of Lem's skepticism: in Lem's opinion, the difficulty in communication with alien civilizations is cultural disparity rather than spatial distance. The failure to communicate with an alien civilization is the main theme of the book.

Previously: Announcement postMars, Ho!FoundationThe Three-Body ProblemSnow Crash


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  • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @01:36PM (5 children)

    by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Wednesday February 13 2019, @01:36PM (#800586) Homepage Journal

    Heinlein repeatedly has computers "come alive" via, essentially, magic. I.e., the explanation isn't one. (I will grant that human interaction is likely to be necessary if you want the computer to act like a human, however.) You don't turn a massive computer, even one equipped with Siri/Echo/etc. style interfaces, into an intelligence just by interacting with it.

    Repeatedly? Granted it's been a while since I've read the entire Heinlein library, but I don't remember *any* other narratives that contain a "computer" that becomes self-aware other than TMIAHM. Please do enlighten me.

    I'd also point out that in the early/mid 1960s (when the novel was written), understanding of both the potential power of computing devices (Moore's musings on computing power [wikipedia.org] were first published in 1965 and TMIAHM was first published in 1966), as well as understanding of Neuroscience and consciousness were quite limited.

    Without the last 50 years of advances in computing and neuroscience, The postulation that with enough "neurons" (or in Mike's case, electronic transistors, rather than integrated circuits, which had not yet come into wide use yet), consciousness was inevitable, given appropriate stimulation of said "neurons." That concept was fairly widespread at the time and informed many science fiction stories and gave many computer scientists motivation to investigate "neural networks."

    The way Heinlein has a computer become alive is as reasonable as handwavy "Hyperspace" drives. It's a way to get the story moving, and to handle parts of the plot, but it sure isn't *science* fiction.

    There. FTFY.

    As I mentioned, the state of computing and neuro-science at that time certainly did not preclude the possibility (and again, as I mentioned, computer scientists were working *scientifically* toward that goal [wikipedia.org]) at the time the novel was written.

    I'd be interested in your definition of "Science Fiction," as it doesn't seem to jibe with mine: "Speculative fiction that, taking one or more specific scientific concepts/breakthroughs and developing them into workable technologies while holding other factors constant and playing out the scenario."

    Heinlein (based on scientific knowledge *at that time*) did just that with a number of scientific an technological concepts within the world in which he lived (several years earlier, he'd predicted the downfall of the Soviet Union by the year 2000). The "Green Revolution" [wikipedia.org] was underway, but there were no guarantees that the technologies being employed would be successful, further making Heinlein's story line more plausible.

    So I have to disagree with your assessment. At the same time, you bring up some excellent points and if Heinlein had been born in 1967 rather than 1907, his work would most certainly have included more recent scientific understanding, as he would have written TMIAHM in 2026 and not 1966.

    As such, unless I'm missing something, you are positing that fiction cannot be *science fiction* if it doesn't include scientific understanding that's current when it's read rather than when it was written. Do you see the paradox there?

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2019, @03:12PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2019, @03:12PM (#800608)

    Repeatedly? Granted it's been a while since I've read the entire Heinlein library, but I don't remember *any* other narratives that contain a "computer" that becomes self-aware other than TMIAHM. Please do enlighten me.

    Not the op, but Time Enough for Love had...

    a planet-wide computer complex become a person, raised another computer from scratch and had a child-like AI on a ship. Minerva, the AI is explained to have come into being in part by being cared about and treated like a human. The other AI were treated the same way and had personality rather than just responsiveness (think something like the Star Trek TNG computer; smart but bland) which is the alternative RAH proposed. Time Enough also had various offshoots in multiple other novels RAH wrote in the later period of his life. I can't recall if Minerva was in any of the other books, but I believe her sister AI, whose name escapes me, made a small appearance in The Cat Who Walks Through Walls. I think it was in Cat Who Walks that they reference Mike as another computer that might need saving so his destruction doesn't really kill him. RAH never did write that event into his alternative history, it was just sort of thrown out there, which is why its vague in my memory.

    So I'd say yes, there is at least some reason to say other RAH novels had similar concepts. Many people seem to either only like the early period or late period RAH. If you didn't care for his later works (approximately starting with I Will Fear No Evil), then I wouldn't expect you'd recall any of these.

    • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @04:50PM

      by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Wednesday February 13 2019, @04:50PM (#800633) Homepage Journal

      So I'd say yes, there is at least some reason to say other RAH novels had similar concepts. Many people seem to either only like the early period or late period RAH. If you didn't care for his later works (approximately starting with I Will Fear No Evil), then I wouldn't expect you'd recall any of these.

      A fair point. As I said, it's been a while since I read the entire Heinlein library (and yes, I have done so). From the really early stuff (e.g., Lifeline, Magic, Inc., etc.) to the "juvenile" novels (e.g., The Rolling Stones, Podkayne of Mars, etc.), through the more esoteric stuff (e.g., Stranger In A Strange Land, The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, Assignment in Eternity, I will Fear No Evil, etc.), along with the "Future History" stories (which, of course, are culled from his work and collected, along with If This Goes On..., Coventry and Methuselah's Children). Heinlein then continues along with the "Lazarus Long" thread in Time Enough For Love and To Sail Beyond The Sunset. Heinlein used a variety of styles and storytelling modes (cf. Glory Road) and, as such, it's difficult to classify him based on just a few of his works.

      The thing that binds all of Heinlein's work, IMHO, is the quality of writing and his primary focus on relationships rather than technology. The science/technology generally enables the situations where the relationships play out (in the case of TMIAHM, the cultures of Luna colony, its relationships with Earth, and the desire for liberty and self-determination).

      Back to Time Enough For Love and, IIRC, The "Minerva" personality is designed and implemented as a full-fledged AI that manages affairs (and not just technical stuff) for an entire planet prior to moving to a new planet (and a human body) with the Howard Families.

      This is significantly different from Mycroft, who attains consciousness through sheer comp[uting power and external inputs. As such, I don't consider the two to be analogous.

      Regardless, OP said [soylentnews.org]:

      Heinlein repeatedly has computers "come alive" via, essentially, magic.

      Twice (and in completely different ways/contexts) doesn't add up to "repeatedly" in my book.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2019, @08:40PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2019, @08:40PM (#800725)

    Repeatedly? Granted it's been a while since I've read the entire Heinlein library, but I don't remember *any* other narratives that contain a "computer" that becomes self-aware other than TMIAHM. Please do enlighten me.

    It's been a great many years since I read my way through most of Heinlein's works, but IIRC Gay Deceiver, the ship's computer in The Number of the Beast, might suit your request.

    • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 13 2019, @09:01PM (1 child)

      by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Wednesday February 13 2019, @09:01PM (#800730) Homepage Journal

      It's been a great many years since I read my way through most of Heinlein's works, but IIRC Gay Deceiver, the ship's computer in The Number of the Beast, might suit your request.

      Once again, IIRC Gay Deceiver as well as Minerva were *designed* and constructed as self-aware AIs.

      Mycroft Holmes on the other hand, was designed and constructed as a general purpose computer that gained enough complexity through upgrades and input stimuli to become self-aware.

      Those are completely different scenarios and, as such, aren't really comparable as plot/character devices.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by deimtee on Thursday February 14 2019, @05:28AM

        by deimtee (3272) on Thursday February 14 2019, @05:28AM (#800893) Journal

        Dora might have been designed as a (deliberately childlike) AI, but Gay Deceiver was the computer in his flying car and basically came alive when they visited Frank Baum's Land of Oz. So in that case, yes magic.

        --
        If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.