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posted by takyon on Sunday February 17 2019, @05:00PM   Printer-friendly
from the nothing-in-that-store-costs-1$-anyway dept.

In a Washington Post story picked up by the S. Louis Post-Dispatch, reporter Rachel Siegel asks the question "Are dollar stores a response to poverty - or a cause?"

The fundamental premise of the story is

fear the stores deter other business, especially in neighborhoods without grocers or options for healthy food. Dollar stores rarely sell fresh produce or meats, but they undercut grocery stores on prices of everyday items, often pushing them out of business.

this creates what is referred to by one patron as a 'food desert'

their unstoppable rise...keeps grocers from opening.

implications are made

With fewer options for fresh food and health care, people in a North Tulsa ZIP code have an average life expectancy of 11 years less than those in South Tulsa, according to a 2015 city report.

"It creates an overall sense of the neighborhood being run-down," said Stacy Mitchell, [of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance]. "It's a recipe for locking in poverty rather than alleviating it."

Contrariwise, these stores

are a vital source of cheap staples

The last Dollar General to open is across the street from a senior citizens home. That store, Henderson said, is a lifeline to residents.

the council thinks it's appropriate for city government to pick winners and losers in the economy.

and while not typical, some do indeed sell fruits and vegetables

grapes, apples, avocados, potatoes sandwiched between bags of fried pork skins and cases of Michelob Ultra.

It's Walmart all over again in a way.

Grocery stores run on thin profit margins - usually between 1 and 3 percent. And they employ more workers than dollar stores to keep perishable food stocked.

"It's no longer the big-box grocery store" that threatens local businesses, said David Procter, a Kansas State University professor who studies rural grocery stores. "But it's the discount retailer that's coming to town and setting up shop right across the street."

Some localities have added restrictions on the stores, for example

Mesquite, Texas, a Dallas suburb, approved changes to its zoning code last year that will limit the number of dollar stores. The guidelines prevent them from opening within 5,000 feet of each other. And stores must dedicate 10 percent of floor space to fresh food.

Tulsa is working to solve the 'food desert' problem they attribute to the stores

This month, a deal was reached with ECO Farms, a local company that focuses on indoor vertical farming to solve food deserts. Two company executives, Jim Bloom and Adam James, said that while this is their first try at a grocery store, they're intent on making healthy food a reality in District 1 - not a luxury.

"We're attending to this as a human right, not a geographic privilege," James said.

However, as the article notes - "grocery stores have struggled here before"

The nearest dollar store to me is about four-five miles (15 minutes or so) on busy backroads. My experiences with them are lack of selection and significant product gaps. Very hit or miss and you just have to go shop somewhere like Kroger or Publix afterwards anyway to finish out your list, so I don't bother as I don't have the time to spend on the extra commute and double shopping.

If everyone was like me dollar stores might not be experiencing the success they very obviously are.
So how about some other perspectives? Do Soylentils love them or hate them? Is this a first world problem?


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  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:05PM (23 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:05PM (#802562)

    How come "the poor" don't grow their own? How hard it is to have a small garden for lettuce, peppers, tomatoes? I've had peppers in middle of winter near chicago in an apartment with northern windows... if you have a house, it's really a no brainer to grow your own vegetables.

    Then there is also the flee market. Grow vegetables, sell the rest if you want.

    But yes, 1st world problems..... I've been in some pretty poor places in the world and there is no food deserts even if local fancy restaurants only had chicken and rice. You can always find fresh vegetables, even in places where people live on $3/day.

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  • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:11PM

    by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:11PM (#802567) Homepage Journal

    Consider that Food Stamps can be used to purchase food plant seeds.

    In Alaska, you can buy bullets with Food Stamps. One bullet, one moose if that's your staple food.

    I'll be planting indoors sometime soon.

    --
    Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
  • (Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:38PM (5 children)

    by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Sunday February 17 2019, @06:38PM (#802579) Journal

    Shouldn't the mega farms be able to produce veggies at a lower cost per unit than someone at home getting some seeds, 1 bag of fertilizer, probably watering them manually, etc.? Economy of scale.

    Even some kind of urban co-op or community garden effort might work better.

    --
    [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:03PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:03PM (#802588)

      Shouldn't the mega farms be able to produce veggies at a lower cost per unit than someone at home getting some seeds, 1 bag of fertilizer, probably watering them manually, etc.? Economy of scale.

      You forget the downtime. Plants grow all day whether you are there or not. They just require a little bit of time few times a week. And that's the expensive things, like salads. So you can plant your own salad for $0.001 or you can buy one for $0.50 or more, with extra effort trying to find it. Or you can pay someone else to do it for you.

      So unless the poor want to work some shit job so they they pay someone else to farm or actually want to relax and grow their own food ... you know, not all labor is suppose to pay you benjamins directly ... but it sure saves you a few.

    • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:36PM (3 children)

      by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:36PM (#802621) Journal

      FWIW, in the 1960's my family grew multiple vegetables in the back yard in the California bay area (optimal climate). My father figured out that it cost us about twice as much to eat that way, though admittedly the quality was better. But we did it anyway because my mother wanted to garden.

      Seeds weren't a significant part of the expense. And labor wasn't counted at all.

      --
      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:04PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:04PM (#802644)

        Hahah, yep. I grow hot peppers. They are .99/lb at the store. Compared to buying soil, fertilizers and other odds and ends just to get less than that lb of yield its a losing proposition. If I had a lot of land it would maybe sort of work. Growing has given me a new found respect for farmers.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @07:19PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @07:19PM (#803109)

          yeah. i have a large garden and it's overgrown with grass and weeds and has a couple kale plants and arugula that just can't be killed. besides, that, gardening has been a pain in the ass. of course, i haven't had the money to get the soil right so i think it would be easier if i could dump a bunch of money into it right at first. either way though, getting good at pest, soil, water, sun, etc management is non trivial.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @08:58PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @08:58PM (#803175)

            You're thinking too hard. Do the amount of work you want to do, and be smart about the rest. Let the weeds grow until you need to harvest - predatory bugs and pollinators love weeds. Plant root systems are not all the same either, they each are more effective with certain compounds than others, and dump the excess in the soil around them, which is part of why "companion planting" works. As long the plants grow, don't worry about the soil, just keep adding organic material and it will get better with time. If you're not aiming to be a farmer, there's no need at all to manage your plants like one.

  • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:34PM (10 children)

    by Gaaark (41) on Sunday February 17 2019, @07:34PM (#802594) Journal

    That was one of my arguments for people on welfare: don't let them sit and watch the young and the restless. Instead, get them community gardening and such. Grow a wack load of veggies, teach them how to pickle/preserve, etc.

    Teach self-worth, community, hard work, helping others....

    --
    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Monday February 18 2019, @01:36AM (9 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday February 18 2019, @01:36AM (#802715) Journal

      Teach self-worth, community, hard work, helping others....

      And make them pay for it**, 'cause this is how you keep the profits flowing!

      ** given that "grow your own" is an expensive proposition when compared with buying them from agribusiness.
      The values you mentioned? Those are the ones over the survival level, with disposable time and money to spare.

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @08:06AM (8 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @08:06AM (#802836)

        ** given that "grow your own" is an expensive proposition when compared with buying them from agribusiness.

        How expensive it is depends on the circumstances. If you have even a small yard, water is cheap where you live, and you have access to free organic matter to mulch your soil, it can be very cheap.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Monday February 18 2019, @08:30AM (7 children)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday February 18 2019, @08:30AM (#802842) Journal

          In my case, water services are expensive (e.g. sewage services charged based on consumption), weather is hot and has been quite dry for the last 2 years.

          But even letting aside the costs, most of the crops tend to ripe at the same time. The result is 3weeks of eating your own and buying the same produce for the rest of the year: letting aside the 'deli/gourmet' factors, grow-your-own is a hobby, not a way to eat healthier.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 18 2019, @09:37AM (5 children)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 18 2019, @09:37AM (#802867) Homepage Journal

            I invite you to find someone's grandmother and learn the wonders of the mason jar.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday February 18 2019, @09:58AM (4 children)

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday February 18 2019, @09:58AM (#802878) Journal

              I invite you to find someone's grandmother and learn the wonders of the mason jar.

              1. Grandmother veggie-patch > any suburban area backyard of the nowadays. Which means quantities absolutely not worth spending a day to put in mason jars and sterilize.

              2. I have a veggie-patch myself. Unfortunately, no basement/cellar - which means that when a produce is in season, the weather is too hot to conserve it (except for long boiled things like home-made jams - what's the point to spend an entire day doing it when the stuff available at the supermarket has the same 'healthy food' value?). Any pickle will ferment in 2-3 days and go ballistic outta mason jar.
              At the best, I can buy yogurt ferment and do a batch from one day to the other and then finish drinking it the day after.

              (Kimtchi you ask? Riiight, cause digging holes in the backyard - assuming you have one - is something that you should do at 30+C for your health)

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
              • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday February 18 2019, @02:10PM (2 children)

                by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Monday February 18 2019, @02:10PM (#802947) Journal

                I'll agree that processing what you grow probably isn't going to fill a lot of jars in one cycle. I have only really processed storebought produce and farm-picked apples (you pick it yourself, it's cheaper). YMMV of course.

                I think if you do the math, homemade jams/jellies/etc. can be a lot cheaper than storebought. For example, I bought an 8 lb bag of oranges, a couple sacks of sugar, and some habeneros, and made well over a gallon of spicy orange marmalade (a bit sauce-like thickness due to lazy). Then I used that to make orange chicken and other goodness for a long time.

                Any pickle will ferment in 2-3 days and go ballistic outta mason jar.

                If you sterilized it, it should not do so. If you didn't and you suspect a lot of gas build up will happen, you could use a special lid such as this one [amazon.com] to release gas. I actually created some grommeted lids myself so I can insert airlocks into wide mouth mason jar lids.

                (Kimtchi you ask? Riiight, cause digging holes in the backyard - assuming you have one - is something that you should do at 30+C for your health)

                Yeah, most people don't do that any more. You can make [soylentnews.org] kimchi [soylentnews.org] or sauerkraut in a mason jar or plastic bucket. Time and money spent is relatively low in my opinion, and gives you a very tasty (if not traditionally made) product. The 5 gallon bucket and airlock that I used are not necessary; you can make it easily in a regular mason jar.

                --
                [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Monday February 18 2019, @09:37PM (1 child)

                  by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday February 18 2019, @09:37PM (#803195) Journal

                  If you sterilized it, it should not do so

                  If you sterilize it, it's dead, Jim. No longer health-food.

                  What I'm after is pickles in the lactic acid resulted from the slow fermentation of sugars in veggies - sauerkraut style. These are what I grew with, the vinegar ones just poke holes in my stomach lining.
                  For the brine pickled, if the temperature is too high (over 15-18C), the colonizing lactobacillus is not the species I want - it will transform your veggies into a foul smelling mush, no matter if you drain the CO2 or not.

                  --
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 18 2019, @03:37PM

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday February 18 2019, @03:37PM (#802993) Homepage Journal

                Which means quantities absolutely not worth spending a day to put in mason jars and sterilize.

                You've obviously never tasted my great aunt's pear preserves. No better tasting substance has ever graced a jar in any quantity. Easily worth dealing with all the wasps a pear tree attracts even for a single serving a year. Would still be worth it even if it attracted bears, crocodiles, and hipsters as well as wasps.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday February 18 2019, @05:01PM

            by Gaaark (41) on Monday February 18 2019, @05:01PM (#803042) Journal

            Plant in waves (succession planting?): Get seeds going, a few this week, more next week, more the week after, so they don't ripen at the same time.

            Square foot gardening: pack that garden FULL!

            Plant stuff that ripens early and late so you always have something you're eating.

            Square foot gardening is amazing: stop thinking like a farmer. Who needs to plant in rows when you don't use a harvester.

            My asparagus should be prime eating this year: gonna harvest the HELL out of that baby! :)

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
  • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:35PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:35PM (#802619)

    Because the poor are poor because they are lazy. If they had enough gumption to grow their own food, they would also have enough gumption be able to work their way out of poverty. But it is more fun to watch Kanye on Dancing With Stars.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:30PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:30PM (#802658)

      They are poor because they were born with access to wheels which makes them lazy. Get rid of wheels, get rid of walls, and above all get rid of DRUMPF.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:46PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17 2019, @09:46PM (#802627)

    if you have a house, it's really a no brainer to grow your own vegetables.

    Yeah? How come agriculture is a high cost, high risk profession then?

    Without constant vigilance, your plants are going to suffer in droughts, getting eaten by deer, crowded out by weeds, and preyed upon by all and sundry insects.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by etherscythe on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:00PM

    by etherscythe (937) on Sunday February 17 2019, @11:00PM (#802642) Journal

    Here in the south, "The Poor" often don't have a good window to grow anything, unless they're rural. You'd have to take down the aluminum foil or the packing blankets they've tacked over the windows to keep running the air conditioning from destroying their budget with the poor insulation. They also don't have a yard for a garden.

    Ironically, in my area there's a Family Dollar that just closed. I won't miss the trucks delivering late at night right on the other side of the fence from me.

    --
    "Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @01:36AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 18 2019, @01:36AM (#802714)

    As discussed in a recent SN article about urban farming, growing your own food is generally a terrible idea that is extremely expensive and does not really work.

    Most poor people don't have large yards where they can make gardens, and they don't have time to tend them.

    The inherent problem with food deserts is that grocery stores are just not profitable in certain areas. It is hardly the fault of the dollar stores, how dare they sell products at low prices to extremely cost conscious buyers! No, the problem is that the grocery store model is based on buyers coming to the store for produce and buying other things while they are there, essentially focusing on variety over price, while in food deserts location and price are more important than variety to the people who live there. So the stores that emphasize price win out over the stores that emphasize variety.

    Requiring stores that sell a certain amount of food to also stock produce is reasonable, but what if the buyers don't buy it? I buy a lot of packaged food, not because I can't afford produce or can't get to a grocery store, but because I just don't like to cook. If you are working two jobs and raising two or three kids, you might just not have time to cook.