Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

posted by martyb on Friday February 22 2019, @05:18AM   Printer-friendly
from the keep-your-friends-close-and-your-enemies-closer? dept.

An article at vice.com reports The Number of U.S. Hate Groups Keeps Surging, Largely Thanks to Young, White men:

The number of hate groups nationwide reached a record high in 2018, driven partly by the persistent growth of white nationalist groups catering to young, college-aged men.

There are currently 1,020 active hate groups in America — up from 954 in 2017, and 917 the previous year, according to an annual tally by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). The new, young face of hate emerged from the shadows during the 2016 election and organized through a shared language of memes and under the banner of the “alt-right.” Many hailed then-candidate Donald Trump, with his hard-line views on immigration, as a hero. In celebration of his election, the alt-right’s one-time de facto leader Richard Spencer led a room full of young men in suits to give Nazi salutes.

Since then, Spencer and other prominent actors, entangled in costly lawsuits and tired of being heckled by anti-fascist protesters, have faded into relative obscurity.

At the same time, groups like Identity Evropa — whose khaki-clad members were a formidable presence at the violent “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, in August 2017— have proliferated and expanded their reach by setting up new chapters across the country. Patriot Front also grew significantly in 2018 after splintering from Vanguard America, the group linked to the 19-year-old neo-Nazi who rammed his car into a crowd of protesters during the Charlottesville rally and killed Heather Heyer.


Original Submission

 
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough Mark All as Read Mark All as Unread
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by helel on Friday February 22 2019, @10:00AM (26 children)

    by helel (2949) on Friday February 22 2019, @10:00AM (#804959)

    Quite frankly it doesn't matter whether you think their feelings are right or wrong. What maters is whether you want the number of individuals involved in these groups to go up or down.

    If you want more young people to join these groups then all you have to do is dismiss their feelings, insult them, and blame them. You have to drive them from polite society and treat them as a dangerous other. Once you have labeled anyone struggling with hateful thoughts as unworthy of respect they'll be easy pickings when somebody else comes along and tells them "it's not you, it's them" or "this is why we can't let them in our country."

    On the other hand if you want to reduce the membership of these groups you need a different approach. You need to acknowledge their feelings, particularly their pain. You need to address their concerns and difficulties. You need to treat them as equals and treat them as worthy of respect.

    Look, I know it's hard work to sit down and have a real conversation with somebody you disagree with. I know it's emotionally hard to treat them with love and respect. I also know it's the only way to get through to people.

    tl;dr: Have you ever changed your opinion because somebody insulted you? No? Well then why the fuck would you expect somebody else to change their world view when you insult them?

    Starting Score:    1  point
    Moderation   +4  
       Insightful=3, Informative=1, Total=4
    Extra 'Insightful' Modifier   0  

    Total Score:   5  
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by cubancigar11 on Friday February 22 2019, @11:21AM (7 children)

    by cubancigar11 (330) on Friday February 22 2019, @11:21AM (#804977) Homepage Journal

    Men don't have the privilege to complain, only women do. This is why "you are the snowflake" is apparently some sort of retort.

    If someone's first response to a victim is "first of all, you are complaining about abuse so stop that" and yet maintain complete silence over the abuse being hurled over those victims, then at least some percentage of those victims are going to say "fuck it, I will play the same game".

    The reality is that the real Nazis - the ones who think state and private sector are obliged to engineer society - the real definition of Nazism - have co-opted the ideas of the 60s and 70s and are hiding under the label of liberalism and its offshoots, and just like the real nazis their support base is unsuspecting public.

    When shit hits the fan which it eventually will, I am sure we will find a large number of common people saying "I didn't know this was happening" just like the Germans after losing WW2.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @02:37PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @02:37PM (#805039)

      What a load of projecting nonsense, you have swallowed too much propaganda. I get that you feel marginalized but that is because you are accepting the narrative which wants you to feel that way. Note that the narrative comes from your ideological "allies" to cover up the theft and destruction of US society.

      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday February 22 2019, @08:09PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday February 22 2019, @08:09PM (#805293) Journal

        These poor victims can't handle the mean words.

        That's definitely more important than the actual terrorism and murder this story is about.

      • (Score: 5, Touché) by cubancigar11 on Saturday February 23 2019, @07:37AM (1 child)

        by cubancigar11 (330) on Saturday February 23 2019, @07:37AM (#805500) Homepage Journal

        I am not in the USA and I see that problem in every country which is closely aligned to USA policy by will or force. YOU are the ignorant American who hasn't bothered learning an iota about other places. News flash: registering democrat doesn't make you a better person, more compassionate, scientific etc. It doesn't make you anything.

        And note: I have called you ignorant American not ignorant liberal. IF you ever find your empty head out of your ass I would suggest you take steps to cure your ignorance. Why do you think it was important to point out that the hate groups are increasing "Largely Thanks to Young, White men"? The scourge of society - young, white, men. But if you ever find yourself wandering through a non-white democratic country you will find that the scourge of society is not white, it changes into whatever majority group makes up the labor class - young men.

        What a load of projecting nonsense, you have swallowed too much propaganda.

        And that propaganda is coming from... let me guess the republican party of the USA. Or patriarchy, quite possibly. Or maybe I am Russian. One thing is for sure - I want to destroy America.

        I get that you feel marginalized but that is because you are accepting the narrative which wants you to feel that way.

        Personally, I feel neither marginalized nor I have accepted any "narrative". In fact, I feel very empowered and slightly frustrated by how many fucking retards have yet to get their comeuppance in this world, but my life otherwise is quite well and I am very happy because ultimately I have stopped giving two shits about what happens to this world after I die. And believe me, the world will be a better place if more men felt that way.

        Note that the narrative comes from your ideological "allies" to cover up the theft and destruction of US society.

        You are an idiot. My ideological allies - pfft! I almost ignored this thread because I knew there is always somebody more disappointingly stupid than those whose existence I have already accepted to ignore.

        You had no fucking great society, you idiot! Your ancestors fucking ran away from great societies to plunder and kill and refuse to pay taxes - like what - 4 or 5 generations ago? I am not a native English speaker yet YOU don't know what theft means. How many Americans have died due to hunger this year? Let me when that number reaches 5 digits and we will start talking about "theft".

        People like you and a bunch of other people I see on this website make me question if ye olde website was just as big an echo-chamber of unwise narrow-minded little babies who can't be arsed to educate themselves.

        If USA didn't have as much of an influence on the rest of the world through power, I wouldn't bother commenting - and I don't mostly don't. But somehow I still feel a duty to educate fellow geeks. Believe me - I am reining in my urge.

        Here is what you need to do: find evidence of whatever you have said is true. Instead of talking out of your arse you tell me WHO has spread this propaganda (and you can't link to SPLC), what is my ideology (yeah - put a name on it), and who are my "allies".

        • (Score: 1, Troll) by aristarchus on Saturday February 23 2019, @11:28AM

          by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday February 23 2019, @11:28AM (#805535) Journal

          Oh, crap! We have triggered CubanCigar#11! This after Fustawrench went ballistic in the election fraud journal, and Runaway was cruelly and deservedly mocked and insulted in his own journal! Where will it end? (I have read Cuban's post three times, still not sure what he is saying. Just saying. ) Oh, TMB is a twit, Runaway is a racist, and Cuban is a pansy. Did I leave anyone out?

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Friday February 22 2019, @07:21PM (2 children)

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday February 22 2019, @07:21PM (#805258) Journal

      Men don't have the privilege to complain,

      I see a whole bunch of men complaining in this very thread.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by bobthecimmerian on Friday February 22 2019, @12:27PM (4 children)

    by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Friday February 22 2019, @12:27PM (#804994)

    While logically I understand you, I wasted countless hours in completely civil discussions with Trump supporters in 2015 and 2016 and didn't change a damn thing.

    It's like trying to convince my parents that Pope Francis is an evil person for not making his first papal act the stripping of Cardinal Law of his position for Law's role in the Boston Diocese pedophile coverup scandal. I would have an easier time getting a toaster to change its mind. So you know what? I've given up trying. I don't insult bigots because it wastes my time, but I won't engage them either.

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @04:58PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @04:58PM (#805140)

      You're not going to change their minds until their situations change. Notice where his support is coming from, these are people who in many cases have been left behind. They aren't attaching responsibility to the right group, but they're not likely to change their minds until and unless they see tangible changes in their own lives, or at least their community.

      I'm more of a progressive and have serious issues with MAGA, but it's really hard to get onboard with some of these policies when I've seen so many undeserving people get help that I could never get, merely because of the color of their skin or gender. In many cases, it would come at the expense of not just me, but people who needed help even more than I did.

      You can't fight racism by being racist in a different way. And as long as we ignore the fact that the biggest problem that these people at the bottom of society deal with is economic, not race or sex related, the longer this is going to continue to be a problem.

      If we get the income inequality managed to a more reasonable level and there's still issues with those other problems, at that point, it's a conversation that might actually go somewhere. But, as long as we're treating it like a zero-sum game and these white men are blamed for the problems, you're just not going to convince them that their reality isn't real. It feels very real to them and to a large extent is real.

      • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Saturday February 23 2019, @01:43PM

        by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Saturday February 23 2019, @01:43PM (#805557)

        You can't fight racism by being racist in a different way

        Before I start, I do accept that the major problem is economic and not related to race, sex, religion, and so forth. But I think most of the stuff being labeled as "racist in a different way" is not racist at all. Say you have a set of Walmarts in New York City with the same regional manager and 60% of the bottom level workers are non-white and 50% of the bottom level workers are women, 30% of the assistant department managers are not white men, 10% of the department managers are not white men, 0% of assistant store managers are not white men, 0% of store managers are not white men. If a policy is instituted to promote women and non-whites over white men, that's not "racist in a different way". That's stripping out the effects of the previous racist policy. The white men upset that their own shot at promotion just got kneecapped have to remember that all of the women and non-whites in the store faced the same situation for the past twenty years. In effect, the white man complaint is still racist - unintentionally, but racist - "You can't treat me the same way they have been treated! That's not fair! I was treated better back then and I deserve better treatment now!"

        Now again, the real problem is that Walmart and chains like it screw their employees and there should have been a nationwide strike for a $15 if not $20 minimum pay years ago. But policies to undo the effects of racism are not automatically racist.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by istartedi on Friday February 22 2019, @08:19PM (1 child)

      by istartedi (123) on Friday February 22 2019, @08:19PM (#805304) Journal

      You don't know what you've done until you've done it. "For years, there were people who politely told me I was wrong, and then I realized I was." is difficult when you're the one who's doing the telling, because it seems like nothing has registered even if it has.

      --
      Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
      • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Saturday February 23 2019, @01:29PM

        by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Saturday February 23 2019, @01:29PM (#805554)

        You're right, of course. And my own political views have evolved over time because of the same kind of intelligent discussion. But I've grown less patient with age, and I think the internet that helped shape my views had a smaller percentage of flame wars and trolling as a proportion of total content than we have today.

  • (Score: 3, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Friday February 22 2019, @03:33PM (11 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday February 22 2019, @03:33PM (#805070) Journal

    Have you ever changed your opinion because somebody insulted you?

    Well, actually, yes. Just yesterday. A whole bunch of people insulted me in my journal. This morning I woke up a liberal!!

    And, if you believe that, I can get some bridges for you!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @05:28PM (8 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @05:28PM (#805168)

      We tried readonable discussion, we tried facts, you throw it all in our faces and repeat your nasty worldview. Are you one of those new-age types that only believes in positive reinforcement?

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday February 22 2019, @05:52PM (3 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday February 22 2019, @05:52PM (#805185) Journal

        No, I believe in the power of negative reinforcement as well. Your left leaning lamestream media tells you all kinds of negative crap, and some of you eat it up.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @06:18PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @06:18PM (#805200)

          Ah yes, Gaslight Obstruct Project!

          That was supposed to be a humorous interpretation of the acronym not a how-to guide.

        • (Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Saturday February 23 2019, @12:02AM (1 child)

          by Joe Desertrat (2454) on Saturday February 23 2019, @12:02AM (#805390)

          No, I believe in the power of negative reinforcement as well. Your left leaning lamestream media tells you all kinds of negative crap, and some of you eat it up.

          This is your argument? Seriously? Maybe you should spend some time comparing what comes from "left leaning lamestream media" and the right leaning news sources we have and you apparently believe. Any time I have been forced to listen to Fox News and the like I have heard an unending stream of BS aimed at provoking outrage and fear among a population that apparently wants to be outraged and afraid for little real reason. And BS is a rather polite term for what they spew. The level of "facts" and "truth" that come from Fox News is well below any other mainstream outlet, and there are not any other popular right wing sources doing any better.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 23 2019, @02:36AM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday February 23 2019, @02:36AM (#805439) Journal

            That's why you don't listen to Fox any more than you listen to lamestream. Get your news from a dozen sources or more outside of the US. The BBC has always been reliably unreliable. That is, they have their spin, but they are consistent.

      • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday February 22 2019, @08:02PM (3 children)

        by aristarchus (2645) on Friday February 22 2019, @08:02PM (#805287) Journal

        Well, actually, yes. Just yesterday. A whole bunch of people insulted me in my journal.

        I think we are finally getting through to Runaway. The realization you are being insulted is the first step to admitting you have a problem. Soon we will hear, "Hello, my name is Runaway2019, and I am a Fox News viewer."

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday February 23 2019, @02:50AM (2 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday February 23 2019, @02:50AM (#805446) Journal

          The realization you are being insulted is the first step to admitting the insulters have a problem.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 23 2019, @07:19AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 23 2019, @07:19AM (#805496)

            oooh so close!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 23 2019, @08:28AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 23 2019, @08:28AM (#805505)

            Hello, my name is Runaway1956, and I cannot admit that I have a problem. In fact, everyone who has a problem with me has a problem. I know that Trump is working for the good of America! He is making America Grate again, but keeping out the spics and polacks, increasing the taxes on the rubes, and encouraging the racists amoung us to be even more racist than they were, before. Also, and in addition, he is against abortion, except when he as to pay for one by one of his really hot mistresses, or one-night stands with Golden Showers.

              Oh, Runaway! There are so many ways you are wrong, so much you do not know, and so many ways in which you are being manipulated by those much smarter than you, but with less morality, even given the low level of morality you possess. You are stupid, Runaway! Stupid! A moron! Uneducated, non-eriudite, knowledge deficient, dumb. Insults will continue until enlightenment occurs, if it ever does.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @07:59PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @07:59PM (#805282)

      And, if you believe that, I can get some bridges for you!

      Slightly used, moderately stained, Troll bridges for sale? You are such an idiot, Runaway! You're not even doing it right!

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @08:13PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 22 2019, @08:13PM (#805297)

        I think we're seeing some signs that Runaway is either old enough to be getting dementia of some sort OR it is actually a paid agent trying to keep the narrative alive.

  • (Score: 2) by julian on Friday February 22 2019, @08:33PM

    by julian (6003) Subscriber Badge on Friday February 22 2019, @08:33PM (#805314)

    On the other hand if you want to reduce the membership of these groups you need a different approach. You need to acknowledge their feelings, particularly their pain. You need to address their concerns and difficulties. You need to treat them as equals and treat them as worthy of respect.

    That's why I refrain from talk about race or gender when I'm arguing for progressive policies. I focus on framing issues on class and economic privilege. But it's a two way street. Far too many poor white people seem perfectly content to stay poor as long as they can feel superior to immigrants, foreigners, ethnic minorities, women, and liberals. I can't help those people, and they can't help themselves either.