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The United States warned Turkey against moving ahead with plans to buy a sophisticated Russian missile defence system that the Pentagon believes would threaten its advanced F-35 fighter aircraft.
The State Department made the remarks on a day when the head of US European Command spoke to politicians on Capitol Hill and said Turkey should reconsider its plan to buy the S-400 from Russia this year.
"We've clearly warned Turkey that its potential acquisition of the S-400 will result in a reassessment of Turkey's participation in the F-35 programme, and risk other potential future arms transfers to Turkey," said deputy spokesman Robert Palladino on Tuesday.
The US agreed to sell 100 of its latest fifth-generation F-35 fighters to Turkey and has so far delivered two of the aircraft. But Congress last year ordered a delay in future deliveries.
[...] The S-400 can track a large number of potential targets, including stealth targets such as the US F-35 fighter jet. Other advantages included its high mobility, meaning it can be set up, fired and moved within minutes.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:11PM (33 children)
Turkey is supposedly an ally, even being a part of NATO. This was justified partly because of location. Turkey guards the Black Sea, cutting the USSR off from the Mediterranean. The U2 and SR71 could fly across the USSR by using Turkey and Norway as bases. Turkey is in a good location for listening stations. So NATO was motivated to overlook any problems with Turkey.
About a century ago, Turkey was led by Ataturk. He somehow managed to drag Turkey out of the 7th century, making it look almost westernized. For a time, you could almost imagine Turkey joining the EU. This is falling apart now, with Turkey sliding back toward the expected behavior of an Islamic country. Remember that in the 1960s in both Iran and Afghanistan, you could find uncovered women in miniskirts living westernized lives. As with those countries, Turkey is headed back to the 7th century.
It is time we recognized that Turkey isn't what we were motivated to imagine it was. Turkey needs to be cast out of NATO. They don't belong there any more than Iran does.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by takyon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:26PM (6 children)
You're 100% right, although we could go a step further and ask whether the U.S. really needs to be in NATO or if NATO needs to exist.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:39PM (3 children)
Yes, U.S. occupation of Europe must be maintained. We are the only thing keeping it from sliding back into feudal warfare. The U.S. is still the indispensable nation for keeping peace on the continent that has been at war since the arrival of the first humans. That you must accept!
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:27PM (2 children)
The U.S is behind most feudal wars these days. There wasn't a time in a long time when the U.S was not at war with someone.
With continued occupation of faraway lands on the back of the U.S Dollar, continuing to defend the U.S Dollar (murdering millions in the process) in order to occupy more places (and their resources) and it goes on and on.
The U.S is a terrorist state. That you must accept!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @02:10AM
*sigh* You make it look like we're the bad guys. You have no idea what's going on.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @01:17PM
That's nothing but a load of crap
Sincerely non-USAnian
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:59PM (1 child)
This is a good question. The answer is that NATO exists to protect US interests in Europe. As long as the US does business in Europe, NATO will continue to exist.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday March 06 2019, @10:42PM
Part of those interests is "to wage war together, you need compatible equipment, so follow MY standard, which is easiest if you buy from me".
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:35PM
Turkey sliding back toward the expected behavior of an Islamic country.
Awful lot of non-Islamic countries on that same slide...
(Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:44PM (5 children)
It was also extremely important in the early 1960's for a different reason: At the time, nobody had highly accurate ICBMs, so John F Kennedy put shorter-range nuclear missiles there aimed at major Russian cities including Moscow. The Russkies responded by trying to put their shorter-range nukes in Cuba, sparking the Cuban Missile Crisis. A flurry of diplomacy later, and both the US and the CCCP decided to back off.
That said, Ataturk's predecessor, the Ottoman Empire, wasn't 7th century or anything close to it: They had done a lot to modernize with the help of their German allies in the early 20th century, and lasted for a very long time against British attacks during World War I. The people unlucky enough to be landing at Gallipoli were facing machine guns, artillery, rifles, and grenades, not swords and trebuchets.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 5, Informative) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:01PM (4 children)
As a Kiwi who has a Great Uncle buried at Gallipoli those words mean something.
Those Mehmets were as brave as our boys, even if they were as poorly led. It's a real shame they've let their government become what it is now.
The Turks of Gallipoli are lovely people, if you're from an ANZAC country.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:36PM (3 children)
I think there's a decent argument to be made that outside of Gallipoli, the Brits didn't do anything as spectacularly stupid as the Ottomans. For instance, early in the Great War, the Ottomans launched a surprise attack on the Suez Canal after a daring and creative desert crossing ... only to fail to realize that there was such a thing as scout aircraft, and the Brits knew exactly when and where this "surprise" attack was going to hit. Or their attacks in the Caucasus against the Russians where they forgot that armies have a much easier time of it when they are given the food and equipment they need to not freeze to death.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 06 2019, @09:03PM (2 children)
The ANZACs were described as lions led by donkeys, and that probably applied to the Turks as well. I think that's one of the reasons the Young Turks overthrew the Empire after the war. They were well aware how badly the whole deal was run.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @09:41PM (1 child)
Pretty much all sides were beset by severe incompetence among the officers. If you're interested in WWI, I highly recommend The Great War [youtube.com], a Youtube series that covered what was going on 100 years after it happened (e.g. early December 1917 was covered in early December 2017).
Of course, the dumbest move in WWI has to be starting it in the first place!
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 06 2019, @10:39PM
I have watched many of those videos, and you're right they're great. I particularly like the way they go into detail on the less well know fronts, like Bulgaria, or the Italian campaigns.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:48PM (11 children)
Gee I wonder why they are regressing.
Morons will say "cause Islam herpaderpadoo" and completely ignore that Western nations destabilized their countries, spurred on by an ancient feud between Christianity and Islam. The US has plenty of regressive religious nutjobs who would like nothing better than to implement a theocracy like some of the middle east. The US and others intentionally supported the nutjobs in a vain attempt to control the Middle East. Sadly it completely backfired, the idiots running the show just couldn't comprehend that actually supporting freedom and democracy would be better for humanity. Oh the irony.
This does not absolve the Islamic nutters, but don't pretend it is some problem inherent with Islam. The Christian Bible has plenty of its own nasty shit, yet people like The Mighty Buzzard are able to use their brains to parse out the good bits and (hopefully) not go literal witch hunting. Y'know, something the US did not too long ago. As you pointed out it is possible for the Middle East to join the modern world, but bombing the shit out of innocent civilians will do quite a bit to hinder their advancement. Hard to improve when you're stuck in a loop of fury, and sure is easy for religious nutters to instigate religious violence when people's children are murdered by foreign meddlers.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:01PM (8 children)
Modded up, because few people seem to understand how we have stabbed ourselves in the back, repeatedly, in dealings with the mid-east. We give lip service to democracy, but we'll readily topple a democratic government for failing to fall into line. We don't really give a small damn about democracy, it PROFIT that we really care about.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:13PM (6 children)
<sarcasm>
If a majority of people in a country vote for something the US doesn't like, then can that country really be called a democracy?
</sarcasm>
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:23PM (2 children)
No need to be a dick in response to Runaway's valid post. He didn't even throw in some allegedly ironic racism :D
Democracy in the US is indeed in trouble, but we're far from a true lack of democracy. The current subversion of the system is done through gerrymandering, voter suppression, and good old election fraud.
We need ranked choice voting to replace the electoral college and voting days should be official holidays. I'm sure there are other things to be worked out, but those are the easy ones.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 06 2019, @09:20PM
I agree with ranked choice voting.
I am not trying to be a dick. I did include sarcasm tags which I usually do not do. And I do not intend any disrespect towards Runaway.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by GlennC on Thursday March 07 2019, @12:39AM
FTFY
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:13PM
That has been America's foreign policy for more than a century.
See Guatemala, Iran, Cuba, Chile, Congo, Nicaragua, etc, etc, etc. No sarcasm needed.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:59PM
Well, a decent FTFY might be
This sig for rent.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @04:05PM
Really? Go ahead and look at post 9-11 news. Bush was obsessed with his "approval rating" which is ironic considering how unpopular he'd eventually become. He was obsessed with this because the snakes in his cabinet were using his popularity as a proxy statistic to gauge support for the wars.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:42PM
Oh please! Don't make such a big thing about it. It's common piracy, just like those Johnny Depp movies, only without a plot, or good looking actors. I know everybody likes to think we've evolved, but we haven't. We just add a new facade and refine the makeup.
So yes, destabilization does effectively "salt the earth", it serves a purpose, it keeps the competition out. You don't want them getting fat on our leftovers. Thank Brzezinski [arizona.edu] and Carter for this. It worked, and is working today. Look at the trillions of dollars being kept out of circulation.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday March 06 2019, @08:54PM (1 child)
The wars in most of the Middle East, at least since 1900 or so, have relatively little to do with religion, and everything to do with who controls the oil. The US, UK, and most of the rest of the west will ally themselves with despicable monsters of all stripes so long as they allow western oil companies to make boatloads of money off of that natural resource. Why do you think the US continues to prop up the Saudi monarchy after a bunch of Saudis destroyed the World Trade Center and a bunch of Saudi money went to ISIS? Cheap oil and gas. Would it surprise you to learn that one of the major goals of the Obama administration in Syria was to establish pipeline routes from the now-conquered Iraq through Syria and Turkey into Europe?
The only wars in the Middle East where it's reasonable to say religion was a key cause are those involving Israel. However, the religious causes of those fights, at least since 1967, have had more to do with Jewish beliefs about which land God had promised to Israelites and Christian beliefs about the return of Israel being a sign of the Second Coming than with any Muslim beliefs about jihad. The Muslims in the area are generally more mad about the Israelis taking a bunch of their land and their stuff and killing a whole bunch of them than they are about the Israelis being Jewish.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 07 2019, @02:53AM
When the Jews came over they developed the land and settled in previously uninhabited areas / inhabitable swamp land: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)#British_Mandate_era [wikipedia.org]
Both the British and the Ottoman tax survey in the region records aren't disputable: There were a few fishing villages. Some goat herders. A few tourist attractions. But no industry or agriculture. And no exports except the "holy relics" industry and funeral services serving old people coming over to get buried in the holy land. The most commerce the area saw was the ports where ships going from Egypt to Turkey made a pit stop... Literally a grave yard.
Regardless, Muslims and Arabs genocide each other over Sunni vs. Shia or whatever in every region of the Muslim -/+ Arab world so any person that claims a strong opinion with regards to Israel that doesn't have similar opinions towards at least a dozen other nations in the region (and can names them and similarly recite some bullet points) is just a self-deluded antisemitic fool. In the end it's just a tiny regional power that has no economic relations to its neighbors and the Palestinian refugees aren't numerous enough to make any difference on the local geopolitics.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @06:54PM (3 children)
Turkey has tried to be part of "the west" for decades, but has been continually blocked from EU membership. You don't have to worry about their NATO membership, they'll be leaving on their own soon enough, because they're done with the seat we've offered them at the diplomatic kids' table.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:12PM (2 children)
Today, Erdogan is the biggest obstacle to Turkey becoming an EU member, or being "westernized". If, instead of Erdogan, Turkey had an Ataturk Junior, or Ataturk Lite, Turkey's relations with the world would be very different. Erdogan is busy erasing Ataturk's legacy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:22PM
Turkey was being denied membership to the EU when Erdogan was still learning to read.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @07:26PM
I remember before Erdoǧan, the obstacle was Turkey's Islamic majority. They would let Ukraine in while not admitting Turkey.
Plus, obviously now the base obstacle would be Cyprus.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @10:33PM (2 children)
Back a decade ago, Erdogan was doing all the things the West deemed right, trying to make peace with the Kurds, various reforms, etc.
EU told them to fuck off, you are "Asians".
Finally, Erdogan turned 180, and he is what he is today, and Turkey is what it is today.
Even the progressive-minded Turks have difficult time arguing against anti-West turn of the government, given what EU did to the Turks despite all the effort the Turks put in to get accepted.
Even Mutafa Kemal might have told the EuroPEONS to fuck off by now.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bob_super on Wednesday March 06 2019, @10:54PM (1 child)
> EU told them to fuck off, you are "Asians".
The people of Europe were saying "Fuck off, You are too many / too muslim / too poor", foremost.
The bureaucrats had put Turkey into a lot of paperwork, and were arguing that cementing their democracy and honoring the EU's commitments meant that the integration process should start. I know people who voted against the EU constitution because it opened the door (eventually) to Turkey.
The politicians, especially after the backlash which followed the integration of Eastern Europe, just stalled long enough for an Erdogan to come and make their job easier.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 06 2019, @11:03PM
"Too poor" is bullshit. EU accepted Bulgaria and Romania, much poorer economies, of similar Balkan culture.
Turks are nothing if not proud. Despite all the bending-over-backward they did, EU humiliated them. The outcome was inevitable.