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posted by chromas on Tuesday April 02 2019, @01:50AM   Printer-friendly
from the death,-taxes,-and-'this-causes-cancer-in-the-state-of-California' dept.

New York's Governor Andrew Cuomo, who is currently unhampered by the constraints of two party rule, has announced details of the state's new budget plan.

Some highlights include:

  • Drivers into busy sections of Manhattan will pay a 'congestion charge'
  • Single use plastic bags banned across the state
  • Closure of up to three state prisons
  • Eliminating cash bail for misdemeanor and nonviolent felony arrests
  • A permanent 2% cap on local property taxes
  • Increase in Public Education funding by 1bn
  • A new 'Mansion Tax' on homes over $25 million
  • A new internet sales tax on market providers

The Internet Sales Tax will affect companies that are marketplace providers no matter where they are located that have more than 100 sales and over $300k in total sales in the past year to New Yorkers.

The tax will

require third-party retail sites – like Amazon, eBay and Etsy – to collect and remit sales taxes when a buyer in New York purchases something from a retailer on their site. The measure would make marketplace providers collect New York state sales tax at its normal rate of 4 percent plus local sales tax, which varies based on location – such as 4.5 percent for New York City, or 4 percent for some upstate counties.

Similar measures have been blocked in previous years by groups such as tax-averse Republicans, The New York Conference of Mayors and Municipal Officials (NYCOM) and the New York Association of Towns.

Constraints on internet taxation were clarified in a recent supreme court ruling which determined "that states may collect taxes on internet sales even when the purchases are made from out-of-state retailers" making new taxes like this inevitable.

While New Yorkers will pay additional tax on purchases, adding state and multitudes of different local sales taxes on purchases is going increase costs on these sites, which will be passed on to sellers and inevitably purchasers as well.

Currently 19 states do not collect internet sales taxes, and 5 (Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon) do not collect sales tax at all.

State Internet Sales Tax guide here.


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  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 02 2019, @03:00AM (31 children)

    Those aren't the really fucked up bits. The really fucked up bit is including local sales taxes on top of state. Not because it's valid or invalid but because it's going to be a fucking nightmare to keep up with if everyone starts doing it. There's a bit of difference between keeping up with fifty rates and thirty-five thousand or so.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
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  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 02 2019, @03:28AM (15 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 02 2019, @03:28AM (#823412)

    It's not that hard. Point of Sale software has supported this for decades. For example, if you buy an item in one tax jurisdiction in NY State, but have it delivered to another, you pay the local sales tax for the delivery destination. It's not rocket science.

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 02 2019, @04:23AM (2 children)

      Consider for a moment if you would what this means to small shops/sites who do not have anything remotely resembling PoS systems or any form of payment software whatsoever instead of just considering how much money it will get you from the pockets of the big, evil corporations. If, for instance, SoylentNews had to pay sales tax on subscriptions, I would have spent the morning blocking all of NY in our firewalls instead of fishing. We'd have had no choice. We don't collect your address and we're not going to start, so we couldn't legally do business with anyone in NY.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 02 2019, @05:59AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 02 2019, @05:59AM (#823474)

        From TFS:

        The Internet Sales Tax will affect companies that are marketplace providers no matter where they are located that have more than 100 sales and over $300k in total sales in the past year to New Yorkers.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 02 2019, @12:07PM

          Fair nuff on SN. Doing $300K in NY sales is still piddly as hell though. That's gross not net. A mom and pop site that barely keeps the doors open and a roof over the heads of the owners could gross $300K in NY pretty easily and still feel a damned significant bite from having to pay $whoever to keep up with all the local tax rates that can and do change at the drop of a hat. It's damned sure not something they're capable of doing themselves, so you're essentially forcing a second, non-governmental tax on them as well.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Tuesday April 02 2019, @09:02AM (10 children)

      by sjames (2882) on Tuesday April 02 2019, @09:02AM (#823524) Journal

      OK, here's a pad and pencil. I'll be nice and allow you a calculator as well. I call you on the phone from somewhere you have literally never heard of in your life and order $100 worth of goods. Now, all you have to do is find out the tax rates for my state, county, and town, keeping in mind that different types of goods may have a different rate and today may or may not be a tax free day (for a subset of town, county, and state) for other types of goods. Good luck on your mission 006 and 3/4.

      This all strikes me as highly questionable since you and your business are located entirely outside of my town, county, and state's legitimate jurisdiction.

      Even if your business is a bit larger and you have software that can actually work that out from a database, how frequently do you figure you'll need an update considering that every town, county, and state will consider itself free to change the tax rates and rules at any time but probably will not consider itself responsible for sending out notices of change to businesses across the country?

      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 02 2019, @12:12PM (8 children)

        This all strikes me as highly questionable since you and your business are located entirely outside of my town, county, and state's legitimate jurisdiction.

        Yeah, that's been bothering me as well. An Internet business in say, Delaware, can thumb its nose at the EU with impunity more or less but has to put up with NY and CA's every moronic law? What the shit?

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday April 02 2019, @07:07PM (5 children)

          by sjames (2882) on Tuesday April 02 2019, @07:07PM (#823744) Journal

          Once upon a time, the various state and local tax laws placed the onus on the buyer resident in the jurisdiction to report internet and mail order purchases and pay the tax in cases where the seller had no presence in the jurisdiction. That was fair enough, but the rate of reporting was near zero.

          Of course, it is reasonable enough to require companies with an actual physical presence in the jurisdiction to abide by the laws of that jurisdiction. But these laws being applied outside of their jurisdiction really needs to go.

          At most, it might be reasonable for the Federal government to pass a law with a SINGLE sales tax with a SINGLE set of rules and a SINGLE place to send the money and the states can fight it out among themselves from there.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 02 2019, @11:16PM (1 child)

            s/and the states.*/and the states can cry in the corner while congress spends their money./

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday April 03 2019, @12:33AM

              by sjames (2882) on Wednesday April 03 2019, @12:33AM (#823872) Journal

              That would be between the states and the feds. At least it wouldn't be a violation of jurisdiction affecting businesses across the country.

          • (Score: 2) by Muad'Dave on Wednesday April 03 2019, @03:03PM (2 children)

            by Muad'Dave (1413) on Wednesday April 03 2019, @03:03PM (#824103)

            Once upon a time, the various state and local tax laws placed the onus on the buyer resident in the jurisdiction to report internet and mail order purchases and pay the tax in cases where the seller had no presence in the jurisdiction. That was fair enough, but the rate of reporting was near zero.

            That is still the case in Virginia - they call it the "Consumer's Use Tax" [virginia.gov].

            I don't mind paying it, but I'm not a fan of doing it this way from a constitutional POV. They're asking me to store records and provide them with the evidence they need to fine me if they think I've cheated, with no verifiable data of their own.

            Also, the VA tax form (at least in H&R Block Tax Cut) is worded such that they want to know the sum of ALL food- and non-food purchases you've made, NOT just those that did not have Va sales tax charged at the time of sale.

            Although it's a burden on the seller, I'd rather all sellers collect and remit the sales tax and be done with the self-incriminating 'Use Tax'.

            • (Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday April 03 2019, @06:09PM (1 child)

              by sjames (2882) on Wednesday April 03 2019, @06:09PM (#824179) Journal

              I can see the preference, but why should the state of Virginia have any ability to demand all of that from a potentially small company in California that has a tough enough time knowing and following all of the local laws where it actually is?

              If I have to obey Virginia law when I don't even live in Virginia, I'll be demanding my absentee ballot come election time.

              • (Score: 2) by Muad'Dave on Thursday April 04 2019, @11:08AM

                by Muad'Dave (1413) on Thursday April 04 2019, @11:08AM (#824420)

                I agree with you. Perhaps the right answer would be to only allow the seller's state to collect it's own sales tax on all sales regardless of where they're shipped. That would encourage competition among the states for businesses seeking lower costs of doing business.

                Or maybe the states could get together and all charge a uniform 'external shipping' tax that they could reconcile once a year based on destination.

                Or maybe drop the idea of squeezing every bit of blood from us turnips altogether. Nah, that'd never happen.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 13 2019, @05:15AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 13 2019, @05:15AM (#828880)

          JSON/XML based standardized taxation tables, starting at the national level, and providing links to every state/province, county, city, and special taxation zone, with lists of all area codes or geographic boundary coordinates (in GPS or another useful format) to help all business software have a standardized method of determining and updating taxes across national and international borders.

          Really, unless governments are willing to do this, they are just trying to indirectly stop online sales, which won't work, and will simply inconvenience their constituents even as more business shifts away from local businesses who provide no value over the remotely purchased goods, since they are just buying and marking up those goods anyway, instead of finding a way for local goods and services to trump the cheap and shoddily made foreign goods, or improve local goods to the same cost or quality as foreign goods.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday April 13 2019, @11:00AM

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Saturday April 13 2019, @11:00AM (#828931) Homepage Journal

            That's actually a really good idea, if you leave out the XML part. It would need to allow for tax-free period rules and allow for excluding categories of products as well but it'd be an honest to Thor legitimate use of the commerce clause to mandate localities/states contribute their data to it and keep their entries updated if they want to charge sales tax on remote purchases.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 2) by DeVilla on Friday April 05 2019, @04:28PM

        by DeVilla (5354) on Friday April 05 2019, @04:28PM (#824987)

        I've been thinking about this a bit because I know a number of folks who run run brick-n-mortor shops that can't keep up with the tax free internet businesses and I know a number of folks running small internet businesses who would never be able to keep up with all the tax laws the world over (as you describe).

        I think it's fair to say that internet goods are not exempt from taxes just because "... with a computer ...". But it's beyond unreasonable as a barrier to entry for a small business to know and follow the tax codes everywhere they ship.

        But you know who already has a presence everywhere an internet business ships produces too? The shipping companies. I say make the shipping companies bill and collect the taxes. They could provide a way for the shipping party to look up the tax ahead of time. Small shipping companies presumably only operate in a smaller area wouldn't need to follow taxes in areas they don't handle.

        There should be some standards in how taxes are defined and updated and this only supports taxing physical goods. Still, it's less unreasonable.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 02 2019, @07:36PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 02 2019, @07:36PM (#823751)

      yeah, and so much more convenient to kill the local government officials who voted for the tax.

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by NotSanguine on Tuesday April 02 2019, @05:02AM (13 children)

    Those aren't the really fucked up bits. The really fucked up bit is including local sales taxes on top of state. Not because it's valid or invalid but because it's going to be a fucking nightmare to keep up with if everyone starts doing it. There's a bit of difference between keeping up with fifty rates and thirty-five thousand or so.

    I came here to post about this myself.

    From TFS:

    While New Yorkers will pay additional tax on purchases, adding state and multitudes of different local sales taxes on purchases is going increase costs on these sites, which will be passed on to sellers and inevitably purchasers as well.

    This is a solved problem and has been for a long time.

    I worked for a large retailer with lots of mail order (that job was before Internet commerce sites) business *and* retail stores, they had to (as the law has been for at least 40 years) charge sales tax on mail orders anywhere they had a physical presence. This wasn't a big deal in the 1990s, as all it takes is a look up table in a database to compare zip codes with tax rates.

    This sort of thing has been automated for a *very* long time. And given that the NY law only applies to sales from companies that do at least US$300,000/year in sales (most states have a US$100,000 threshold). As TFS points out, more than half the states [salestaxinstitute.com] already require online sellers to charge sales tax on orders to customers in their states.

    So, no. New York is way behind the curve on this, as most of the rest of the country is already doing so. As such, this law will have little impact on sellers.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 02 2019, @12:14PM (12 children)

      Automated for large companies with deep pockets is not the same as automated for everyone. Not even close.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday April 02 2019, @05:24PM (11 children)

        Automated for large companies with deep pockets is not the same as automated for everyone. Not even close.

        31 other states got there before New York, and New York's threshold is US$300,000 *and* 100 units sold *in* New York. whereas most other states have a US$100,000 threshold.

        I'd say that NY budget provision re: sales tax doesn't change much of anything for online retailers, big or small given that 31 other states already require the same thing.

        It's funny. The NY law sets the minimum requirement to collect sales tax at an annual sales volume of US$300,000 *and* 100 units sold to customers in NY State. Not total sales/revenue, sales/revenue to people in NY state.

        I really wish this information could have been put into TFS. Oh, wait. It was:

        From TFS:

        The Internet Sales Tax will affect companies that are marketplace providers no matter where they are located that have more than 100 sales and over $300k in total sales in the past year to New Yorkers.

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 02 2019, @05:32PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 02 2019, @05:32PM (#823697)

          I think TMB was talking about Internet sales taxes in general. The easy solution would just be a national average Internet sales tax.

          • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday April 02 2019, @06:04PM (3 children)

            I think TMB was talking about Internet sales taxes in general. The easy solution would just be a national average Internet sales tax.

            TMB's concern appears to be with small, mom & pop shops that don't have enough money to download a file with tax rates by zip code.

            As I've (repeatedly) pointed out, even other states limit the collection of sales tax to retailers who do at least US$100,000 in a particular state. NY has a threshold of US$300,000.

            If you have a physical presence in a state, you are already *required* to collect sales tax (assuming there is a sales tax there). If you're doing more than US$100,000 worth of sales in another state, you're almost certainly doing multiples of that in your own state. If that's the case, you're not a mom and pop shop without the resources to go to the library and print out tables for tax rates by zip code. In fact, if you're doing that much business, you probably own a whole computer. Shocking, isn't it?

            --
            No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 02 2019, @07:39PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 02 2019, @07:39PM (#823754)

              only cowardly pieces of shit collect taxes for the state.

            • (Score: 2) by Muad'Dave on Wednesday April 03 2019, @03:15PM

              by Muad'Dave (1413) on Wednesday April 03 2019, @03:15PM (#824105)

              ... a file with tax rates by zip code

              Sadly, it's not that simple. As I pointed out in another post, there are 'tax holidays' that eliminate taxes on certain categories of goods for short periods of time - think 'back to school' tax holidays or 'hurricane preparedness' tax holidays.

              What used to be a simple tax function of one variable Tax(zip) is now a gross nasty mess of tax(date, zip, UPC / UNSPC [unspsc.org] / Amazon product tax code / etc).

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 02 2019, @11:22PM (5 children)

          I don't give a shit about the state sales tax. My bitching was about including local sales taxes. You'd have known this if you'd read what I said instead of kneejerk disagreeing.

          As for the threshold, who gives a shit? $300K is chump change for sales to NY. The hotdog vendors in NYC gross that a year. That doesn't mean they net enough to feed, clothe, and house a family, much less pay $whoever to keep track of every pissant town's local sales taxes that can change on a daily basis.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday April 03 2019, @12:23AM (4 children)

            by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Wednesday April 03 2019, @12:23AM (#823867) Homepage Journal

            I don't give a shit about the state sales tax. My bitching was about including local sales taxes. You'd have known this if you'd read what I said instead of kneejerk disagreeing.

            Actually, I addressed that quite directly in an earlier post [soylentnews.org], as did an AC [soylentnews.org].

            Interestingly, you replied to that post, and I quoted that complaint from your post too. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I didn't read what you wrote.

            I wonder. How much would it cost (assuming one doesn't have a computer to download a CSV or XLS file that maps tax rates to zip codes directly) to go to the library and do so. Maybe $50 for paper? If that?

            And it's pretty clear (apparently, *you* didn't read what I wrote, as you completely ignore these points) that you're having a knee-jerk reaction to disagree with me.

            1. Anyone who is in NY has to collect state and local taxes already;
            2. That a mom and pop store run out of someone's house in, say, Texas is going to sell $300,000 worth of stuff just to NYers and not sell anything else to anyone else is complete fantasy;
            3. To point (2), it's much more likely that sales in *every other state, as well as one's own home state* will exceed sales to just NY by factors of 10 or more. As such, anyone from out of state selling $300,000 worth of goods just to NYers has revenues far in excess of that $300,000;
            4. Beyond that, 31 other states *already* require retailers to pay state/local sales tax on stuff sold to people in their states. What's more, most of those states have a $100,000 threshold as compared with NY's $300,000 threshold.

            As for the threshold, who gives a shit? $300K is chump change for sales to NY. The hotdog vendors in NYC gross that a year. That doesn't mean they net enough to feed, clothe, and house a family, much less pay $whoever to keep track of every pissant town's local sales taxes that can change on a daily basis.

            First of all, street food isn't subject to sales tax in NYC. Secondly, any retailer *in* NY already had to pay state/local sales tax when selling to people in NY. This is about folks *outside* NY selling > $300,000 *and* > 100 individual items. I'll say it again, in case you decided not to read what I wrote above:
            2. That a mom and pop store run out of someone's house in, say, Texas is going to sell $300,000 worth of stuff just to NYers and not sell anything else to anyone else is complete fantasy;
            3. To point (2), it's much more likely that sales in *every other state, as well as one's own home state* will exceed sales to just NY by factors of 10 or more. As such, anyone from out of state selling $300,000 worth of goods just to NYers has revenues far in excess of that $300,000;

            I get that you don't like it. But why loose your venom on New York? They're really late to the party and aren't doing anything that most of the rest of the states are already doing. What's more, NY's law is several times more generous in exempting people than most other states.

            --
            No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday April 03 2019, @02:13AM (1 child)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday April 03 2019, @02:13AM (#823905) Homepage Journal

              I get that you don't like it. But why loose your venom on New York? They're really late to the party and aren't doing anything that most of the rest of the states are already doing.

              Because fucked up bullshit is fucked up bullshit even if every other state does it.

              No shit street vendors in NY have to deal with NY taxes. They were an analogy not an example.

              No, say the whole world ain't made up of NY! It is one of the states with the most money moving around though. By a long shot over most states.

              As for the rest, gross revenues mean nothing to a business owner. $300K gross could easily be any of $150K, $10k, tree fiddy, or -$300K net, depending on circumstances. Gross is mostly just money the owner gets to wave at is it goes past.

              Have you ever in your life paid attention to your local sales tax rate? If they get updated and it doesn't happen in the middle of the bloody year, it's a damned miracle. So, no, you can not go look it up at the library or download it from the Internet unless you want to end up paying the extra two percent out of the company till that went in around February in Tucumcari because you were using tables from January.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday April 03 2019, @02:44AM

                by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Wednesday April 03 2019, @02:44AM (#823921) Homepage Journal

                Have you ever in your life paid attention to your local sales tax rate? If they get updated and it doesn't happen in the middle of the bloody year, it's a damned miracle. So, no, you can not go look it up at the library or download it from the Internet unless you want to end up paying the extra two percent out of the company till that went in around February in Tucumcari because you were using tables from January.

                Actually, I do.

                And when I said go to the library, that was the (ridiculous) case of an Internet retailer not having a computer -- But they do have those newfangled ro-bots with access to those funny innertoobs at the library.

                And changes in sales tax rates are generally well-publicized, as they usually require legislation to make such changes, and are usually implemented at the beginning of a calendar or fiscal year.

                What's more, your analogy of some old lady knitting balaclavas in her sitting room not being able to take care of this is disingenuous at best.

                Firstly, this is about *internet* sales. As such, the retailer needs to have some sort of web presence (okay, maybe they pay the Johnson boy $10/week to run orders over from the Western Union office -- or maybe it's the Pony Express?) in order to sell stuff on the Internet.

                Secondly, Just about every seller you're talking about is going to be using something like Amazon, eBay, Etsy or some other marketplace who will handle all of this for them.

                Thirdly, if they have the resources to stand up, support and manage their own web presence, they're not Aunt Ginny knitting in her sitting room. What's more, they are *already* collecting sales tax for almost as many jurisdictions to which they are selling.

                This is a long-solved problem and NY's changes won't make even a little difference in how people run their businesses. Sorry Buzzard. Your argument just doesn't hold up.

                --
                No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 03 2019, @02:36AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 03 2019, @02:36AM (#823918)

              Your clear, simple explanation of a topic directly related to the article has no place on this website, my friend.
              I am also deducting points for having direct experience in the matter.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 03 2019, @02:45AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 03 2019, @02:45AM (#823923)

                Seriously though, I am continually appalled that computer people have no imagination to see conceptually how this is the perfect problem for a computer to solve via simple table lookup, as you explained. Jesus, you could write a bash script to do it. The taxes table would be in text format. The item sold would have to have a tax categorization like food, clothing, etc.
                It's almost as if it were a problem a third party could solve for you and sell to you, shrinkwrapped.

  • (Score: 2) by Muad'Dave on Wednesday April 03 2019, @02:51PM

    by Muad'Dave (1413) on Wednesday April 03 2019, @02:51PM (#824098)

    You don't know much about taxation, do you? There are already thousands of tax localities [taxfoundation.org] in existence that can have different rates based on what you buy (food vs luxury goods, etc). There are also 'tax holidays' that eliminate the tax of certain goods for short periods of time - I've heard of 'back to school' tax holidays, hurricane preparedness tax holidays, etc.