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posted by janrinok on Wednesday April 17 2019, @12:17PM   Printer-friendly
from the even-SN-is-vulnerable dept.

From the insides of Business Insider

As a huge fire took hold of Paris' Notre-Dame Cathedral on Monday evening, alt-right figures were in no time spreading rumours and disinformation on social media linking the blaze to Muslims and hinting at a sinister cover up.

French officials on Monday night were quick to say that arson was unlikely to be the cause of the blaze as it engulfed the roof of the 12th century cathedral, but far-right activists and propagandists were already all over social media channels pushing conspiracies.

Conspiracy theorist Jack Posobiec compared the blaze to 9/11, despite no link having made to terrorism by French officials, while alt-right activist Faith Goldy falsely claimed that three days previously "a Muslim jihadis [sic] in Paris was arrested for planning a terrorist attack at Notre-Dame Cathedral.

Funny, there was this little AC scurrying about here on SN yesterday, saying things like this.

...but well countered here, also by an AC:

See Also:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/16/notre-dame-fire-investigators-seek-cause-of-cathedral-blaze-paris

Police have begun questioning workers who were carrying out renovations at the cathedral. The Paris prosecutor's office has opened an inquiry into "involuntary destruction by fire", indicating they believe the cause of the blaze was accidental rather than criminal.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/notre-dame-fire-cause-everything-know-cathedral-paris/

The Paris prosecutor's office said it was treating the fire as an accident, ruling out arson and possible terror-related motives, at least for now.


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  • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by linkdude64 on Wednesday April 17 2019, @06:35PM (45 children)

    by linkdude64 (5482) on Wednesday April 17 2019, @06:35PM (#831207)

    Nevermind all of the violence that the left has been committing against the right at things like rallies and gatherings - completely uncontested - since Trump's Presidential campaign picked up Steam, right?
    Nevermind that there are open calls for denying conservative people's rights to free speech, right?
    Nevermind that the MSM has openly called for violence and escalation against CHILDREN who hold right-wing views, right? Have you forgotten Covington?

    Do you really think that the "inbred redneck racist gun-nuts" are going to take that sort of abuse forever? It's been a couple of years of this, without any sort of meaningful retaliation. Now it gets meaningful, and still, the Fair and Lovable Geniuses of the Left side double down on the poking and insulting. Conservatives worldwide are noticing how they are spit on by their "holier than thou" countrymen. Very interesting times ahead.

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  • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday April 17 2019, @06:47PM (26 children)

    by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday April 17 2019, @06:47PM (#831215) Journal

    Nevermind all of the violence that the left has been committing against the right at things like rallies and gatherings - completely uncontested - since Trump's Presidential campaign picked up Steam, right?

    Wot? You can play Donald on Linux, now? Is there DRM, or can you just not access the source code, tax returns, and Mueller report?

    But childish pursuits like gaming aside, there is no violence in punching Nazis in the face, or dropping "Blockbuster" sized munitions upon them. They are the enemy, they never signed articles of surrender, the Allies and the civilized world are basically still at war with them, so any action, even by irregular or guerrilla forces, is a legitimate and legal act of war, not violence. And of course, being Nazis, they are illegal combatants, and by definition engage in violence. No "both sides" symmetry or false equivalence here. Game over?

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by slinches on Wednesday April 17 2019, @07:51PM (15 children)

      by slinches (5049) on Wednesday April 17 2019, @07:51PM (#831278)

      The whole words are violence, so actual violence is justified thing is a huge minefield. You do realize that same argument would justify violence against any political opponent, right?

      • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday April 17 2019, @08:27PM (14 children)

        by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday April 17 2019, @08:27PM (#831293) Journal

        No, it does not. Republicans never declared war against the United States. Same cannot be said for the treasonous Confederates, or the neo-confederate scum. Of course, Lee did surrender, so unless some Confederates what to attack Harper's Ferry all over again . . .

        • (Score: 2) by slinches on Wednesday April 17 2019, @09:18PM (13 children)

          by slinches (5049) on Wednesday April 17 2019, @09:18PM (#831313)

          The US never declared war against "the Nazis" either. We did declare war against Germany after they declared against us, but it didn't mention Nazis at all. So, unless you were specifically saying it was acceptable to target violence only at Nazi German nationals who are in support of the 1940s regime, then your point about war declarations is moot.

          That same logic would justify shooting any Mexican nationals who cross the border illegally as defending the US against invasion since the Mexican-American war happened.

          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday April 17 2019, @09:54PM (12 children)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday April 17 2019, @09:54PM (#831339) Journal

            Your ignorance of the laws of armed conflict and recent world history is disturbing. The Nazis were the German state, and that state was dissolved at the end of the war, without a treaty of surrender by that government. New governments were created, under the guidance of the Allies in Western and Eastern Germany. As for non-Nazi party Germans, if you do not overthrow your government, and fight in its war, you are just as much an enemy combatant as anyone else. (Oh, it is never acceptable to target non-combatants, no matter what their political allegiences, with the possible exception of some propogandists and Sean Hannity.)

            As for the Mexican-American War, despite the American atrocities of the shelling of Veracruz and the massacre of the Niños Héroes at the historic Battle of Chapultepec [wikipedia.org], on February 2, 1848, The Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo was signed, so there is no state of war between the United States and Mexico, and if you are so suggesting, you must be a Nazi.

            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by slinches on Wednesday April 17 2019, @10:13PM (11 children)

              by slinches (5049) on Wednesday April 17 2019, @10:13PM (#831353)

              Your command of logic is disturbing. It doesn't matter whether or not there are open declarations of war against Nazis. Your political enemies (Trump, the "alt-right", republicans, conservatives, etc.) are not Nazis just because you like to call them that.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Wednesday April 17 2019, @11:41PM (10 children)

                by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday April 17 2019, @11:41PM (#831398) Journal

                No, they are Nazis because of the policies they promote, especially the racial supremacy bit. And you seem to not want to understand my point. Must I explain it again, using smaller words?

                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by slinches on Thursday April 18 2019, @12:11AM (7 children)

                  by slinches (5049) on Thursday April 18 2019, @12:11AM (#831418)

                  I get your argument. You believe that anyone who disagrees with you is evil and violence against evil is justified.

                  My argument is that your argument is terrible. It leaves no room for those who share similar values to reach a different conclusion on policy. That attitude is precisely what divides people rather than allowing them to find common ground and work toward a mutually acceptable solution.

                  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Thursday April 18 2019, @12:31AM (6 children)

                    by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday April 18 2019, @12:31AM (#831431) Journal

                    You mistake the problem with the Nazis and the alt-right: I do not call them evil because I "disagree" with them, I disagree with them because they are evil. Common ground with Nazis? Are you trying to normalize evil? "All that is necessary for evil to triumph in the world is for good men to abstain from punching Nazis in the face." Another thing Edmund Burke never said.

                    • (Score: 2) by slinches on Thursday April 18 2019, @02:05AM (5 children)

                      by slinches (5049) on Thursday April 18 2019, @02:05AM (#831462)

                      Precisely. With you there's no gray area. Theres only those who agree with you and those who are evil Nazis. You don't seem to make any distinction between the extreme fringes and the bulk of those who just have opinions based in a more conservative political philosophy.

                      • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday April 18 2019, @08:51AM (4 children)

                        by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday April 18 2019, @08:51AM (#831555) Journal

                        and the bulk of those who just have opinions based in a more conservative political philosophy

                        Do you mean, actual Nazis? I, for one, am not in the least fooled by Richard Spencer's claim to just be a "white separatist", any more than I was ever convinced by Grand Gizard David Duke idea about a "European-American Unity and Rights Organization". Yep, white supremacists, who are just wrong on the facts, self-delusional, and racist. No, these people are wrong, evil, and wrongly evil. I think this has nothing to do with who I do or do not agree with; it has to do with who humanity disagrees with. Nazi doctrine was proven wrong, as in facually incorrect, during the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin, where American Jesse Owens beat their Teutonic asses. And the vast superiority of the "superior race" was more or less demolished when they were decisively and unequivocally defeated by Slavs and Mixed-race Mongrel Americans. If conservatives align themselves with Nazi racist ideology, they are no longer American Conservatives, they are the Enemy of the American People, to turn around a Trumpian phrase. Punches it the face are the least of their worries.

                        • (Score: 2) by slinches on Thursday April 18 2019, @06:36PM (3 children)

                          by slinches (5049) on Thursday April 18 2019, @06:36PM (#831795)

                          The problem isn't calling actual racists, racists and treating them as such. It's that you're equating Trump and mainstream republicans with those racists as a political tool to discredit them.

                          The worst part is that you seem to actually believe in the straw-man villain versions of these people that you and those in your filter bubble have created.

                          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday April 18 2019, @07:05PM (2 children)

                            by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday April 18 2019, @07:05PM (#831817) Journal

                            Trump and mainstream republicans

                            So, slinches, if that is your real name, in an act of desperation you turn to humor? Ha! Good one, But as Marx said in "A Night at the Opera": "there ain't no Sanity Clause". Mainstream Republicans! Ha! And you accuse me of creating strawmen? Who are these "mainstream Republicans" to whom you refer? And you are not seriously suggesting that Trump is not a racist, are you? He and his father are convicted racists! [wikipedia.org]

                            So stop pretending, slinches! Be a Mensch and do not argue like a khallow, in bad faith.

                            • (Score: 2) by slinches on Thursday April 18 2019, @07:36PM (1 child)

                              by slinches (5049) on Thursday April 18 2019, @07:36PM (#831826)

                              I'm not saying Trump is a saint. He is an asshole who has made some stupid comments about race. At worst he's somewhat bigoted, but not racist in the same way as the KKK or Nazis who outright push for genocide and violence against others.

                              • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday April 19 2019, @09:20PM

                                by aristarchus (2645) on Friday April 19 2019, @09:20PM (#832300) Journal

                                Funny, did I not see this exact statement in some "manifesto" recently? Hmmm.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 18 2019, @03:09PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 18 2019, @03:09PM (#831669)

                  For clarification because Aristarchus is insane, he has previously indicated that people who support small-businesses are Nazis. So his definition is skewed.

                  • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday April 18 2019, @06:33PM

                    by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday April 18 2019, @06:33PM (#831793) Journal

                    I said "pro-business", which is not the same thing as supporting small business, and quite possibly the opposite of it. Now about this ethnically pure homeland, with the blood and soil on a long-term lease. . .

    • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Thursday April 18 2019, @09:53PM (9 children)

      by linkdude64 (5482) on Thursday April 18 2019, @09:53PM (#831898)

      "Wot? You can play Donald on Linux, now? Is there DRM, or can you just not access the source code, tax returns, and Mueller report?"

      Me and my twitchy left pinky!

      " is a legitimate and legal act of war, not violence."

      So you want more Christchurch shootings? You want Nazis to declare open war on their anti-gun opponents on the streets? Is this sarcasm?

      • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday April 19 2019, @08:43AM (8 children)

        by aristarchus (2645) on Friday April 19 2019, @08:43AM (#832087) Journal

        You pathetic alt-right coward. Antifa will kick your ass. Yes, I want the Nazis out in the open, so they can be arrested and sent to POW re-education camps. That is what all Americans want, which is why they made laws like that. We may have to punch them in the face, or elsewhere, in the process of arresting them, as The Donald suggested.

        • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Friday April 19 2019, @08:43PM (7 children)

          by linkdude64 (5482) on Friday April 19 2019, @08:43PM (#832283)

          "You pathetic alt-right coward. Antifa will kick your ass."

          Literal keyboard-warrior boasting. I'm done.

          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday April 19 2019, @09:17PM (6 children)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Friday April 19 2019, @09:17PM (#832297) Journal

            Nice conclusion to his sub-thread! Now we know what you are afraid of!

            • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:24AM (5 children)

              by linkdude64 (5482) on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:24AM (#832417)

              Yes, choosing to walk away from a discussion is clearly a demonstration of fear, and fear alone.
              I sincerely hope you are, in years, a child, for your thoughts are those of a child.

              • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday April 20 2019, @06:45AM (4 children)

                by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday April 20 2019, @06:45AM (#832466) Journal

                I am millennias old, as you should know. My knowledge spans eons of time that you could not possibly comprehend. But yet, I dawdle here, to discuss with you things of which you have no comprehension. You are walking away, as you acknowledged, and this is because you were bested in fair combat! You are saying, "It's only a flesh wound!", and I am saying, "You've got no legs?", and you go on saying. "We'll call it a draw, then?" I do not think so, oh Black Knight of the Knights who bugger other knightsl Templars in the SoylentNews! Sanitation squad, STAT,.

                • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:41PM (3 children)

                  by linkdude64 (5482) on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:41PM (#832923)

                  It's not a flesh wound, it's nothing. You haven't disabled or invalidated any claims I've made. You're alluding to humor, but brevity, as the soul of wit, escapes you.

                  • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Sunday April 21 2019, @07:17PM (2 children)

                    by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday April 21 2019, @07:17PM (#833081) Journal

                    OH, you made claims? Did you offer anything other than your idiotic repetition of the voices in your head? You're responsible for proving your claims, and myself and others ignoring them because they are not worthy of rebuttal, obviously is your problem, not mine.

                    • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Monday April 22 2019, @11:20PM (1 child)

                      by linkdude64 (5482) on Monday April 22 2019, @11:20PM (#833592)

                      "and myself and others ignoring them because they are not worthy of rebuttal,"
                      How many replies is this, now?

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 17 2019, @07:22PM (17 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 17 2019, @07:22PM (#831253)

    Thin skinned much? Mr. Snowflake melting hard under the pressure of, GASP, mean words???

    The persecution complex you have is due to the propaganda fed to you by Fox News and other such shitty "news" outlets. YOU are the one doubling down on hatred and stupidity, voting against your own interests, and insulting liberals with "pinko commie genocidal socialist" crap for decades. The tide has finally turned and now that you are getting some heat you are getting so OFFENDED that you're ready to "get meaningful".

    Division is THE POINT of the propaganda, you are angry because deep down you know you've been fed a lot of bullshit and there is a good amount of truth to criticisms from liberals. However, your world views have been so emotionally compromised by Fox News crap that you are subjectively living in a different reality, and since the propaganda used the emotional tie-in you are incapable of being reasoned with.

    Fox News and the talk radio pundits were a brilliant propaganda move. Keep dancing to the tune of those who would make you chattel.

    • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 17 2019, @07:43PM (15 children)

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday April 17 2019, @07:43PM (#831273) Journal

      Wish I had more mod points so I could mod this (and other posts of yours?) up right now! Keep fighting the good fight; I am by your side until the end...we have no choice, really, not if we want a future.

      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 17 2019, @09:52PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 17 2019, @09:52PM (#831336)

        I'll be working late tonight cause I was all over this thread!

      • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Thursday April 18 2019, @09:59PM (13 children)

        by linkdude64 (5482) on Thursday April 18 2019, @09:59PM (#831903)

        ...You really think it's thin skinned to think that covington was unacceptable?

        This doesn't make me upset, it makes me very sad. Very sad that there is no way our sides (because there are so clearly sides) will ever see eye to eye. Very sad that there could be reconciliation with words, but that there clearly won't be.

        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday April 18 2019, @11:05PM (12 children)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday April 18 2019, @11:05PM (#831945) Journal

          No, you strawmanning shitstain, and you know better than that. Cut that dishonest bullshit out.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Friday April 19 2019, @12:18AM (11 children)

            by linkdude64 (5482) on Friday April 19 2019, @12:18AM (#831968)

            "Nevermind all of the violence that the left has been committing against the right at things like rallies and gatherings - completely uncontested - since Trump's Presidential campaign picked up Steam, right?
            Nevermind that there are open calls for denying conservative people's rights to free speech, right?
            Nevermind that the MSM has openly called for violence and escalation against CHILDREN who hold right-wing views, right? Have you forgotten Covington?"

            That is what was called special-snowflake whining, which got a rallying cry from you. I am clearly failing to understand. Do you think hate speech laws aren't being called for? That violence at campaign rallies isn't being started by people who are saying, "Punch Nazis"? If Fox News ran a story that said, "Punch Democrats" that wouldn't be considered incitement to violence by you? This dissonance is what I mean when I say that the two sides will very clearly be unable to reconcile their differences peacefully. We will die disagreeing, whether we die peacefully or violently. I hope it's peacefully.

            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday April 19 2019, @10:48PM (10 children)

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday April 19 2019, @10:48PM (#832348) Journal

              I personally don't think punching Nazis should be anything but a last resort. Ridicule, after all, works so much better, avoids assault charges, and actually hits them where it hurts. :) If you wanna die disagreeing peacefully, then rein in your buddies on the right, because they're the ones starting this shit.

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: 1, Troll) by linkdude64 on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:26AM (9 children)

                by linkdude64 (5482) on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:26AM (#832420)

                "then rein in your buddies on the right, because they're the ones starting this shit."

                Obviously there are legally-convicted bad actors on both sides.

                • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday April 20 2019, @12:34PM (8 children)

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Saturday April 20 2019, @12:34PM (#832529) Journal

                  There are, yes. But the right is far, far worse.

                  Jesus Christ, you actually literally went "both sides." Pathetic. What the hell happened to this place? When did we start drowning in amoral worthless alt-right sludge? Fuck off with that "both sides" horseshit.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:39PM (7 children)

                    by linkdude64 (5482) on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:39PM (#832921)

                    The man who was hit in the head with a fucking bike lock?

                    Are you fucking serious?

                    • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday April 21 2019, @05:40PM (6 children)

                      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday April 21 2019, @05:40PM (#833038) Journal

                      Damn straight I am. Cases like him are notable precisely because of 1) how rare they are and 2) how very much the attackers take from the alt-right playbook when they perpetrate these crimes. That guy was getting a taste of what the alt-right does on a daily basis, and the shock of it--how DARE those people act like "us!"--is where half the outrage comes from.

                      Obviously I don't think it should have come to that. I much prefer mocking Nazis (or whatever other group) mercilessly to physically harming them, mostly because martyrs don't get to be martyrs if people laugh at them. But karma *is* a thing, and if you lie down with sieg-heil'ing dogs you will get up with goose-stepping fleas.

                      --
                      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                      • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Monday April 22 2019, @11:19PM (5 children)

                        by linkdude64 (5482) on Monday April 22 2019, @11:19PM (#833591)

                        Then we'll agree to disagree about class to violence and escalation.

                        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday April 22 2019, @11:22PM (4 children)

                          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday April 22 2019, @11:22PM (#833595) Journal

                          Obviously we will, since we are disagreeing. You're still wrong, though.

                          What was the point of that? "Agree to disagree" does not erase sins of epistemology or absolve one from his or her duty to the truth. Civility is not the same thing as uprightness. Ignoring a problem will not make it go away. "Both sides" is self-serving ahistorical bullshit.

                          --
                          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                          • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Tuesday April 23 2019, @12:47AM (3 children)

                            by linkdude64 (5482) on Tuesday April 23 2019, @12:47AM (#833621)

                            "Obviously we will, since we are disagreeing. You're still wrong, though."

                            'No, you.', for sake of argument.

                            "What was the point of that?"

                            To attempt to politely walk away from the conversation, because we are clearly not going to induce some revelatory state in the other. I'm not concerned with seeming "right" to you or anyone else online; it was never an attempt to seem the more "peaceful" out of the two of us, or anything like that. I simply have nothing else to say to you, not that I have no further thoughts on the subject, or that I am withdrawing in fear with a desperately wounded ego, though you are completely free to believe that. Not every conversation I take part in leaves me wanting for the closure of a cinematic victory or defeat.

                            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday April 23 2019, @09:43PM (2 children)

                              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday April 23 2019, @09:43PM (#834052) Journal

                              There's nothing cinematic about it either. That was more like a long, wet fart, followed by an attempt to convince me that you actually put on brown briefs this morning and my nose is just acting up.

                              If you really want to make a graceful exit, at least admit there's no comparison between the amount of violence the right, alt- or otherwise, is doing compared to the people you call the left, and that the alt-right and plain ol' right if they don't want to be called that are way ahead. Hell, they're way ahead of even Muslims here in the US, who are the bogeymen giving a lot of other people a permanent case of the brown BVDs...

                              --
                              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                              • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Wednesday April 24 2019, @02:35PM (1 child)

                                by linkdude64 (5482) on Wednesday April 24 2019, @02:35PM (#834350)

                                "at least admit there's no comparison between the amount of violence the right, alt- or otherwise, is doing compared to the people you call the left,"

                                Yes, Smollet's tears say more than any evidence ever could about the reality of the situation. Nonsense. See you in hell, then.

                                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 24 2019, @09:26PM

                                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday April 24 2019, @09:26PM (#834506) Journal

                                  What the actual fuck? What does that have to do with what I've said, or for that matter, observable reality? Smollet is a disgusting overprivileged jackass and he's singlehandedly made it horrendously more difficult for actual victims of actual crimes to ever get justice because of what he did.

                                  You will not "see me in Hell." You will see yourself in Hell, because you will create your Hell for yourself, and it will last as long as it needs to. You may see images of me, but only as part of the light you perceive burning you.

                                  --
                                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Thursday April 18 2019, @09:56PM

      by linkdude64 (5482) on Thursday April 18 2019, @09:56PM (#831899)

      "The persecution complex you have is due to the propaganda fed to you by Fox News and other such shitty "news" outlets."

      98% chance to win? This is Bizarro world.

      "you are angry because deep down you know you've been fed a lot of bullshit and there is a good amount of truth to criticisms from liberals. "

      I've been fed a lot of bullshit by liberals, and yes, there's a lot of truth to what they say, and there's a lot of truth to what conservatives say.

      "Keep dancing to the tune of those who would make you chattel."

      How on earth the socialists come to ally themselves with the largest corporations in the world, I will never understand.