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posted by janrinok on Saturday April 20 2019, @01:21PM   Printer-friendly
from the send-them-over-the-edge-of-our-flat-earth dept.

Anti-Vax Parents Lose in NY Court, Face Steep Fines for Not Vaccinating:

A Brooklyn judge on Thursday rejected the petition from five anonymous anti-vaccine mothers who attempted to block the city's recent vaccination mandate amid the largest measles outbreak the city has seen in several decades.

And the city wasted no time enforcing its upheld order. As the judge made his decision Thursday, city health officials doled out the first penalties to violators, according to the New York Times. Officials sent summonses to the parents of three children for failing to vaccinate the children even after city officials determined that they had been exposed to the dangerous viral illness.

Measles is so contagious that up to 90 percent of unvaccinated or otherwise susceptible individuals who are exposed will become ill, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Measles' extreme contagiousness is due in part to the fact that once it is launched into the air from a cough or sneeze it can remain airborne and infectious for up to two hours. Any vulnerable passersby who breathe in the virus or touch contaminated surfaces can pick it up.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/17/health/measles-israel-flight-attendant/index.html:

An Israeli flight attendant has slipped into a coma after contracting measles, according to health officials.

The 43-year-old woman has encephalitis, or inflammation of the brain, a well-known and potentially deadly complication of the virus. She was otherwise healthy before getting measles.

"She's been in a deep coma for 10 days, and we're now just hoping for the best," said Dr. Itamar Grotto, associate director general of Israel's Ministry of Health.

The flight attendant, who works for El Al, the Israeli national airline, might have contracted the virus in New York, in Israel or on a flight between the two, Grotto said. Health authorities do not believed that she spread the virus to anyone on the flights.

She's unable to breathe on her own and on a respirator in the intensive care unit at Meir Medical Center in Kfar Saba, near Tel Aviv.

She developed a fever on March 31 and entered the hospital that same day.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/18/health/measles-israeli-baby-us-caution/index.html:

Fainy Sukenik believes in vaccines, and her four children are up to date on all their shots. That's why she's furious that her baby got measles. Too young to be vaccinated, 8-month-old Shira Goldschmidt developed complications from the virus and had to be hospitalized.

Infectious disease experts say the cause is clear: anti-vaxers.

Both in the United States and in Israel, where Sukenik lives, the ongoing measles outbreaks started with pockets of people who refuse to vaccinate their children. Those anti-vaxers can then spread measles to babies outside their communities because even if parents want to vaccinate their children, babies don't get their first measles shot until their first birthday.

[...] The results can be devastating: For every 1,000 children who contract measles, one or two will die, according to the CDC.

[...] It rarely happens, but about seven to 10 years after someone has measles, they can develop subacute sclerosing panencephalitis, a disabling and deadly brain disorder, according to the CDC.

WHO - New measles surveillance data for 2019:

Measles cases have continued to climb into 2019. Preliminary global data shows that reported cases rose by 300 percent in the first three months of 2019, compared to the same period in 2018. This follows consecutive increases over the past two years.

[...] Measles is one of the world's most contagious diseases, with the potential to be extremely severe. In 2017, the most recent year for which estimates are available, it caused close to 110 000 deaths. Even in high-income countries, complications result in hospitalization in up to a quarter of cases, and can lead to lifelong disability, from brain damage and blindness to hearing loss.

The disease is almost entirely preventable through two doses of a safe and effective vaccine. For several years, however, global coverage with the first dose of measles vaccine has stalled at 85 percent. This is still short of the 95 percent needed to prevent outbreaks, and leaves many people, in many communities, at risk. Second dose coverage, while increasing, stands at 67 percent.

From the Measles entry on Wikipedia:

Measles is a highly contagious infectious disease caused by the measles virus.[3][9] Symptoms usually develop 10–12 days after exposure to an infected person and last 7–10 days.[6][7] Initial symptoms typically include fever, often greater than 40 °C (104 °F), cough, runny nose, and inflamed eyes.[3][4] Small white spots known as Koplik's spots may form inside the mouth two or three days after the start of symptoms.[4] A red, flat rash which usually starts on the face and then spreads to the rest of the body typically begins three to five days after the start of symptoms.[4] Common complications include diarrhea (in 8% of cases), middle ear infection (7%), and pneumonia (6%).

[...] Measles is an airborne disease which spreads easily through the coughs and sneezes of infected people.[6] It may also be spread through contact with saliva or nasal secretions.[6] Nine out of ten people who are not immune and share living space with an infected person will be infected.[5] People are infectious to others from four days before to four days after the start of the rash.[5] Most people do not get the disease more than once.[6] Testing for the measles virus in suspected cases is important for public health efforts.


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  • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @01:37PM (72 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @01:37PM (#832559)

    There is no good evidence that measles is any more dangerous than MMR in countries with modern healthcare systems. Eg US/UK circa 1960 level.

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:33PM (64 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:33PM (#832581) Journal

    1960's - one year I got chicken pox, the next I had the measles. Mumps fit in there somewhere, and worst of all, rheumatic fever. We all got sick. And, as near as I remember, we all got over it. A lot of other "bad things" happened back then. We were given pocket knives, we played outside unsupervised, we walked to school, we rode bikes without wearing helmets, or any kind of padding - I could go on for awhile.

    I just can't get onboard this whole nanny state thing, helicopter parenting, and "think of the children" that everyone is so in to these days. To listen to parents today, none of us should have lived through the sixties.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by pe1rxq on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:48PM (8 children)

      by pe1rxq (844) on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:48PM (#832585) Homepage

      Maybe one of them caused you to say stupid things like this.
      A vaccine might have prevented your post.....

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Bot on Saturday April 20 2019, @04:16PM (5 children)

        by Bot (3902) on Saturday April 20 2019, @04:16PM (#832615) Journal

        an insightful ad hominem completely devoid of content, hmmm

        if you are arguing about the experience of somebody else, at least post yours. No, stats with questionable methodology redacted in probable conflict of interest are not substitutes for being there when vaccinations were given only for other diseases. So, what were you doing when we were shrugging off our parotitis measles/rubella/varicella whatever as something just a bit more serious than flu?
        You might have played the 'survivor bias' card. But then, since I guess runaway has the same memories of me about serious cases in his community (none), the burden of proof is on you to get in the newspapers the death of people affected PRIMARILY from measles and count.

        We don't want to get ill. The problem being, if I had meatbag offspring and could freely choose to let them get measles as youngsters vs. administering the shots, I would be silly to pick the shots, after the official study from Italian region Puglia, which on the front page says vaccination is good and inside correlates 4 out of 1000 cases of GRAVE adverse reaction to vaccination and estimates causality for 3 out of 1000 cases, which differs from other studies by not relying on reported cases but doing active vigilance, ending up with VERY different numbers from other stats.

        Anyway the solution is not vax or no vax. The solution is ANY private interests OUT OF THE HEALTH SYSTEM. Defense welfare (energy housing food) insurance and health are not BUSINESS. They are the primary job of a Republic. You can play the finance investor with gucci bags and sports cars and second apartment on the beach, I guarantee there would be enough pork to have fun once you stop impoverishing people.

        --
        Account abandoned.
        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:39PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:39PM (#832719)

          We don't want to get ill.

          Who's that 'we', dear?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:50PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:50PM (#832725)

            Who's that 'we', dear?

            Bots are always worried about catching a virus. It's been even worse since the whole Internet of Things proved to be as secure as a "Please take one" candy bowl.

            • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:09PM (1 child)

              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:09PM (#832734)

              It's been even worse since the whole Internet of Things proved to be as secure as a "Please take one" candy bowl.

              Funny, in the 1970s we trick-or-treated around the neighborhood, and since then I have probably eaten 1000+ candies from "Please take one" bowls... not dead, or even sick, from the experience yet.

              --
              🌻🌻 [google.com]
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21 2019, @01:50AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21 2019, @01:50AM (#832818)

                I was taking about the candy being secure from theft, not that someone would poison or tamper with the candy.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:48PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:48PM (#832724)

          an insightful ad hominem completely devoid of content, hmmm

          A bot without a sense of humor? Maybe you need your AI tinkered with.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @06:56PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @06:56PM (#832668)

        There is no vaccine for stupidity.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @11:18PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @11:18PM (#832760)

          Which is why you exist!

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by RandomFactor on Saturday April 20 2019, @03:19PM (7 children)

      by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Saturday April 20 2019, @03:19PM (#832597) Journal

      In World War II the allies studied damage to planes that were shot up, but survived to make it back, to decide where to add armor to increase survivability.
       
      This was an example of survivorship bias
       
      The problem in hindsight was that planes that successfully weathered getting shot up weren't the whole story. These planes only displayed locations where planes could take damage and survive, not every place planes took damage, or where taking damage would cause them to crash.
       
      Fortunately a statistician [wikipedia.org] realized what was going on and recommended that they armor places where the returning planes did not show damage.

      --
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      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:14PM (6 children)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:14PM (#832735)

        Unlike WWII bombers, nearly all children survived all childhood sorties in the 1960s and early 1970s, with a minimal compliment of vaccinations available, notably lacking: MMR, varicella, etc. We did get a bit roughed up, had a couple of weeks down time in recovery, but... if that's what's really at stake here: have we created a generation of (born in the 1990s and later) adults who are even more susceptible to serious reactions to these formerly childhood diseases, in exchange for keeping the kids in school an extra 15-20 days per 14 years, on average?

        --
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        • (Score: 1) by RandomFactor on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:04AM (3 children)

          by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:04AM (#832778) Journal

          Both the disease and the vaccination result in an immune system trained to ward off a particular pathogen. The disease does more damage to you along the way.
           
          I'm not sure how that maps to your statement, unless-
           
          You are referring to people who are not vaccinated being hit harder later because they are not exposed early (because the disease is not running rampant as it was in the past)? I can see that, however hundreds of millions getting sick (which yes, the vast majority recover from) vs. hundreds or a few thousand as you describe. The greater number of deaths would still I think lie heavily in the no-vaccinations/everyone gets sick column.
           
          Incidentally my first memory of vaccinations was standing in a long line in gradeschool to get vaccinated with that pneumatic hypo-spray shoot it through your skin thing. Don't even remember which vaccination that was, but it was the time frame you reference.

          --
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          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Sunday April 21 2019, @02:36AM (2 children)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday April 21 2019, @02:36AM (#832829)

            Both the disease and the vaccination result in an immune system trained to ward off a particular pathogen. The disease does more damage to you along the way.

            I'm not sure how that maps to your statement, unless-

            I'd map it based on the oft-repeated: immunity gained from the disease is stronger than immunity gained from the vaccine (varies a lot I'm sure: YMMV). As for the disease doing more damage along the way: polio yes, tetanus definitely, measles sometimes, varicella - that vaccine doesn't work worth a damn in later life, the other ~18 diseases on the CDC vaccination schedule: mostly not and/or insufficient data on actual vaccine damage to really draw conclusions.

            my first memory of vaccinations was standing in a long line in gradeschool to get vaccinated with that pneumatic hypo-spray shoot it through your skin thing.

            There was some crap they shot in the upper arm that left a circular scar - most people lived with the scar but I compulsively scratched mine until it wasn't recognizable as the vaccination scar anymore.

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            • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Sunday April 21 2019, @06:40AM (1 child)

              by deimtee (3272) on Sunday April 21 2019, @06:40AM (#832873) Journal

              The circular scar one was smallpox. It is the poster child for a successful vaccination campaign. Disease eliminated, and they don't do it anymore.

              --
              If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:59PM

                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:59PM (#832927)

                Yes, smallpox was a clear victory. Unfortunately it seems that success with smallpox, tetanus, and polio has brought a halo effect to all vaccines which may not always be deserved.

                --
                🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 2) by Nobuddy on Monday April 22 2019, @01:44PM (1 child)

          by Nobuddy (1626) on Monday April 22 2019, @01:44PM (#833374)

          From CDC:
          In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year, among reported cases, an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.

          That is just measles. You are wrong. Flat out wrong. Just accept it, and move on.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday April 22 2019, @02:27PM

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday April 22 2019, @02:27PM (#833389)

            That is just measles. You are wrong. Flat out wrong. Just accept it, and move on.

            No, I accept your numbers of 400 to 500 deaths and 48,000 hospitalizations per year.

            In 2010, there were an estimated 5,419,000 crashes, 30,296 with fatalities, killing 32,999, and injuring 2,239,000. About 2,000 children under 16 die every year in traffic collisions. Records indicate that there were 3,613,732 motor vehicle fatalities in the United States from 1899 to 2013

            That is just automobile deaths, we can go on with second hand smoke, heart disease, and any number of other "preventable" death modalities, if people would just change their behavior.

            So, what you're saying is that: in 1963, with no vaccination option, there were 500 deaths per year from the measles. What I'm saying is: in 2010, with modernized roadways, airbags and crash protection requirements, there were still ~33,000 deaths from automobile crashes in the USA. 40x the risk of death, and yet, we still allow antique cars to drive on the same roads as us, still choose to drive to work when telecommuting is a viable option for so many, still go on "driving vacations," and even pleasure cruises for no particular reason in our private deathtrap automobiles.

            Today there is a vaccination option, and because a small proportion of the population has recently opted out, for whatever reasons, there's a highly vocal and self-righteous contingent screaming for legislation to force injections into the bodies of others and their children.

            You want to reduce your risk of death 30% more than forcing measles vaccination on 100% of the population vs. no measles vaccination at all? Reduce your driving by just 3%: stay home, off the roads, one day per month. Car crashes don't just maim and kill inattentive drivers, they also maim and kill innocent bystanders. Don't like me telling you when and how much to drive your car, for your own good and mine? I don't like you telling me what to inject in my and my children's bodies.

            We all die. If this is truly the "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" - I'd like to retain my freedom to choose where, when and how I put myself and my children at risk, and the very thought of police showing up at the door forcing children to get injections against their parents' wishes is as un-American as any Red Menace propaganda that ever was created.

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    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Saturday April 20 2019, @03:27PM (12 children)

      by bzipitidoo (4388) on Saturday April 20 2019, @03:27PM (#832599) Journal

      You think life is too soft now, and that makes us weak? And are you saying the 1960s was the right balance?

      > as near as I remember, we all got over it.

      A lot of people did not get over it. My 9th grade English teacher used a cane and looked like she was in her 60s. She was actually in her 40s. Had polio as a child and it left her crippled for life.

      > we rode bikes without wearing helmets

      Bike helmets are a good idea. So are long pants. Construction workers all wear helmets, jeans, and boots because it's worth it. The costs of those items is less than the costs of the various injuries and mishaps that would result if they weren't used. Badly skinned legs, from wiping out on a patch of gravel, are very painful. I mean, come on, do you also like to take your chances with rope burn and serious injuries from handling cinder blocks, because gloves are too wussy or something? I got a lesson on just how fast rope burn can happen if you use your bare hands, just how little a slip it takes to tear through your skin and draw blood.

      > we played outside unsupervised, we walked to school

      I agree that walking to school is a good idea. The risks from criminal child abductors is hugely overblown, and is not worth the costs we incur in the lost exercise, parental time, and gasoline and pollution to take kids to school in the car. And helicopter parenting is a problem.

      It can be tough to figure when a cost is greater than a benefit. But vaccines are about as lopsided as you can get on the cost benefit analysis. We have a very long history of using tools. We wear clothes, have worn clothes for thousands of years, instead of running around naked outdoors. Without clothes, we can't take the weather outside of the tropics.

      • (Score: 2, Funny) by RandomFactor on Saturday April 20 2019, @03:54PM (2 children)

        by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Saturday April 20 2019, @03:54PM (#832605) Journal

        You think life is too soft now, and that makes us weak?

        "If there's one thing I hate to do, it's dishes" - Jane Jetson

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        • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday April 22 2019, @03:34PM (1 child)

          by Freeman (732) on Monday April 22 2019, @03:34PM (#833418) Journal

          I think that one's a universal constant. It is for my wife anyway.

          --
          Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
          • (Score: 1) by RandomFactor on Monday April 22 2019, @04:37PM

            by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 22 2019, @04:37PM (#833437) Journal

            That should have ended with [pushes button], but I messed up the formatting

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      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Saturday April 20 2019, @04:00PM (1 child)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday April 20 2019, @04:00PM (#832607) Journal

        Polio and measles share few similarities. The vast majority of people who contract measles suffer mildly for a few days, and get over it. Polio kills a significant number of people who contract it, scars, cripples, or maims an even more significant number, and causes a great deal more suffering than measles even among those who recover without permanent health issues. Both diseases CAN kill, but the fatality rate is far, far higher with polio. Let us not confuse the two diseases.

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:05PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:05PM (#832703)

          Are you so sure? Only 0.5% of those who get polio are symptomatic with paralysis and other factors, and 10% of those die, so 0.05%. A full 75% are just carriers and display zero affects. Let's compare that with measles and mumps. With measles and modern care, less than 0.02% mortality rate. With mumps it's even lower, most cases of mortality are due to secondary infections so the overall rate is not coming up. So we're talking a comparison between 0.05% and 0.02% between polio and measles. Sure that's 150% more, but they both are still quite deadly in a statistical calculation. It's just that measles, if you recover, has far less chance of life changing affects.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by pTamok on Saturday April 20 2019, @08:42PM (1 child)

        by pTamok (3042) on Saturday April 20 2019, @08:42PM (#832688)

        >> we rode bikes without wearing helmets

        > Bike helmets are a good idea.

        Well, that's not a clear-cut as some make out. There is far, far less good evidence that bike helmets are a good idea than there is for vaccination.

        There is, of course, a lot of cherry-picked, emotive, bad evidence.

        Take a look at the formal tests bike helmets are designed to mitigate, and compare that to the kind of bike accidents people actually expect the helmets to help with.

        It is also well established that requiring people to wear helmets makes cycling less popular. If you then correct the statistics which show a drop in injuries for the smaller population of cyclists, the advantages of helmets are less clear cut. There is less clear-cut evidence that having fewer cyclists on the road makes motorists less aware of cyclists in general, and adjust their driving styles to make the roads less safe for cyclists.

        Helmets definitely protect you from minor injuries such as cuts and abrasions, but whether they are protective against brain trauma is not well established. The amount of energy a helmet is designed to absorb is not large in the context of concussions and brain trauma. Helmets certainly protect against low energy direct impacts, but there is some concern that by increasing the twisting forces operating on the skull, they may actually cause more brain injuries. There is also the issue of risk compensation, whereby people wearing helmets feel safer and feel empowered to take greater risks in their cycling.

        If you look at the public health statistics, there is a far better case to be made for motorists to wear mandatory helmets in cars - population is higher, kinetic energies in accidents are higher, and there are plenty of hard surfaces to hit within cars. If you want to minimise the number of brain trauma injuries caused by traffic accidents, making car drivers and passengers wear helmets will have the greatest effect, but somehow that does not appear to be a popular option.

        • (Score: 1) by RandomFactor on Saturday April 20 2019, @08:56PM

          by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Saturday April 20 2019, @08:56PM (#832698) Journal

          Give it time 😂

          --
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      • (Score: 4, Informative) by Gaaark on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:45PM (2 children)

        by Gaaark (41) on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:45PM (#832721) Journal

        "Badly skinned legs, from wiping out on a patch of gravel, are very painful. I mean, come on, do you also like to take your chances with rope burn and serious injuries from handling cinder blocks, because gloves are too wussy or something? I got a lesson on just how fast rope burn can happen if you use your bare hands, just how little a slip it takes to tear through your skin and draw blood."

        I experienced both those things and lived AND learned VALUABLE lessons from them and didn't do them again.

        Kids now can't even play baseball in school because Mommy's little boy might get hurt and she'd have to helicopter in and sue the school!

        It's ridiculous.
        Kids need to get hurt in order to learn.... boys, anyways.

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:15PM (1 child)

          by bzipitidoo (4388) on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:15PM (#832737) Journal

          One kind of learning is learning by observation. Watch someone else tear up their skin because they weren't wearing jeans or gloves.

          We have videos of all kinds of things now. Should show videos of the consequences to kids.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @11:50PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @11:50PM (#832771)

            Yes show children the awful consequences of a skinned knee without showing them any benefits of the lifestyle that led to it. That will help you fit right in with your peers which is the most important thing.

      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:25PM (1 child)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:25PM (#832740)

        Had polio as a child and it left her crippled for life.

        Polio is some bad shit - literally, and in the 3rd world countries that hadn't gone full chlorination on their water supplies people were naturally inoculated and the incidence of Polio without vaccination was minimal, like 1/10:000 lifetime risk. The earliest polio vaccinations were sugar cubes dipped in weakened disease, and while they improved overall risk, they actually gave people polio at a rate as high or higher than natural rates in "stinking 3rd world shitholes."

        Personally, I believe in the polio vaccine as a "good thing" that I want my children to have, along with Tetanus.

        Bike helmets are a good idea. So are long pants.

        And, yet, they are no panacea. I've been injured through long heavy jeans in bike crashes (similar to rope burn, the jeans didn't tear, but my skin did), and have never worn a bike helmet, yet never had a problem because of the lack of helmet. I know helmet wearers who have been helped by helmets, but one unfortunate friend was not helped by his bike helmet when he got his tire stuck in a metal drawbridge and face planted on the grating - he has a nice new face, looks nothing like his old face, but at least the new one isn't bad.

        Statistically, sure they're an improvement, but in the realm of bike crashes: avoiding the crash is actually far more effective than any safety gear.

        It can be tough to figure when a cost is greater than a benefit. But vaccines are about as lopsided as you can get on the cost benefit analysis.

        Particularly when the data is skewed by people with agendas to push. And in the realm of vaccines, government "herd immunity" interests, pharmaceutical company profits, and "keep the message simple: all vaccines are good" messaging are all suspect of skewing the data to drive their own agendas.

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        • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Sunday April 21 2019, @11:00PM

          by bzipitidoo (4388) on Sunday April 21 2019, @11:00PM (#833168) Journal

          If Big Pharma is propagandizing on vaccines, I would expect them to propagandize against them, so that they can sell more of their products to people suffering from all those preventable diseases.

          The only childhood disease I suffered through was the chickenpox. There was no vaccine for that when I was a child. I would much, much, much rather have been vaccinated. Chickenpox may not be especially dangerous, but it still sucks. You want to be laid up for a week suffering from the industrial grade fever, fatigue, aches, and pains, and most of all, the horrible itchiness of chickenpox? The first 3 days were worse than the worst cold I've ever had, yet not too bad on the itch. But the 4th day was terrible. Perhaps you know that you are NOT supposed to scratch the itches of chickenpox, lest you cause permanent scarring? All you can do is grit your teeth and try not to think about how very badly you want to scratch all those itches that are driving you crazy. And let me tell you, chickenpox is not polite about where the itchy bumps pop up. They are all over your body, including your genitals, inside your mouth, the edge of your asshole, your fingers, hands, feet, and toes.

          Even if you don't give a crap about quarantining yourself, you aren't going to be feeling up to any RL socialization. And you are not going to be enjoying video games either, not with the pustules on your fingers interfering with your ability to work a game controller or use a keyboard, if you can even concentrate enough to play. No, you are going to alternate between standing around naked to keep cloth off your skin because it makes the itchiness worse, and wishing to lie down because you feel miserable and tired and just want to sleep if only the bedsheets didn't aggravate the itch. I spent most of the 4th day naked, on my hands and knees as a compromise between standing up and lying down. Went through a couple of bottles of calamine lotion to try to manage the itch. The 5th day was comparatively better and I could tell I was finally recovering, but wasn't over it yet. By the 6th day, I was feeling pretty much back to normal, and all those itchy bumps were at last turning into scabs. The next 2 weeks I was sporting the scabs from chickenpox. Made me look like I had a very bad case of acne.

          The anti-vaxxers can keep those miserable diseases. Me, I want to be vaccinated against that crap. I'm willing to take my chances with the flu, as long as vaccines for it are so hit and miss, and have to be redone every season to combat the latest strains, which I have never found to be particularly rough despite the legendary WWI strain that I understand was 10 times worse than a typical flu or cold. But I'm not willing to chance poxes, or any of those other vicious diseases. And the minute a permanent flu vaccine for all strains is made and found safe, I want it.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @06:45PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @06:45PM (#832662)

      Because of the slippery slope, which we have already slid way too far down of.

      Incase you haven't noticed, there's been a strong anti-intellectualism, anti-science, anti-basic-human-decency current going on for the past few decades, and it's been getting increasingly stronger. It's now ok to be an anti-vaxxer, moon-landing hoaxer, holocaust-denier, science-basher, climate-change denier. It's now ok to be a misoginist, a xenophobe, a racist, a homophobe. And it's even ok to be a pussy-grabber and a child molester; we've even chosen one to be the president of the most powerfull nation on Earth.

      When does it stop ? When do we put our foot down ? How long before it's ok to be a rapist, a slaver, a murderer ?

      What do we do ? Do we stand-up against what civilization has fought for centuries to eradicate, or do we just give up and let humanity revert back to superstition, barbarism, savagery and bloodshed ?

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @11:39PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @11:39PM (#832766)

        Everything you call science in that post is actaully argument from authority.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:04AM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:04AM (#832776) Journal

        When do we put our foot down ?

        Children throw tantrums every day, and stamp their little feet on the floor while doing so. The adults have few choices. Spank the child, ignore the child, or mock the child to show him how ridiculous he looks. Go ahead, put your foot down, while pretending to be inclusive.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @06:46PM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @06:46PM (#832663)

      So few people get these diseases now that they seem terrifying.

      Like you, my father got all those diseases. My mother got most of them. Everybody they knew was getting the diseases as well.

      These days, everybody is terrified of chickenpox. Chickenpox! Right, in theory it could make you die. Eating a marshmallow could make you die, and kids do die of them every year.

      It's great to avoid diseases, but people are really starting to lose perspective.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @08:49PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @08:49PM (#832695)

        I got chickenpox at the age of about 12 which is a bit old to catch it. I therefore had it pretty rough. (Young children -- not infants -- tend to have milder cases.)
        I sure wish they had a vaccine back then, because nobody on this board has mentioned that surviving a case of chicken pox means you carry the virus inside your body for life. Your immune system keeps it suppressed... unless one day, it doesn't. This second attack of the virus tends to happen to people over 50 under stress or in poor health and is called SHINGLES. It's far more painful than chicken pox. It is possible for it to lead to permanent nerve pain or even blindness in some cases. You can bet your ass that now that there is a vaccine for shingles, I am going to get one.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @11:41PM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @11:41PM (#832767)

          Shingles was never reported until measles vaccine existed.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:09AM (4 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:09AM (#832780) Journal

            Citation needed. Sorry, I don't believe that, I'll need something more than an AC's word on it.

            Don't know how authoritative this page is - I just grabbed the first search hit that showed what I was looking for: https://healthfully.com/shingles-discovered-6699858.html [healthfully.com]

            Early History
            There have been recorded incidents of shingles for over 100 years. It is thought that while the earliest cases of shingles are over 250 years old, it is difficult to tell how many there were because the shingles rash was confused with the rash present in smallpox and chickenpox. It was only in 1767 that scientist William Heberden was able to distinguish shingles from smallpox.

            • (Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:33PM (3 children)

              by fido_dogstoyevsky (131) <axehandleNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:33PM (#832919)

              Citation needed [connection between chicken pox and shingles]. Sorry, I don't believe that, I'll need something more than an AC's word on it.

              Here you go. [mayoclinic.org]

              --
              It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
              • (Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:41PM

                by fido_dogstoyevsky (131) <axehandleNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:41PM (#832922)

                Some of us need an edit function.

                The part I MEANT to quote was:

                Don't know how authoritative this page [connection between chicken pox and shingles] is - I just grabbed the first search hit that showed what I was looking for

                --
                It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday April 21 2019, @01:18PM (1 child)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday April 21 2019, @01:18PM (#832933) Journal

                Yeah, Mayo tells about the same story, shingles and chickenpox are very closely related, if not the exact same virus. I was searching for the history of shingles, to refute the apparent claim that the chickenpox vaccine caused shingles. Apparently, shingles were historically associated with polio, instead of chickenpox, and wasn't diagnosed as something separate until recently - 1700's recently.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 22 2019, @02:01AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 22 2019, @02:01AM (#833225)

                  Shingles is the reactivation of the latent VZV that happens in the nerve cells after getting chickenpox. If anything, the evidence is that getting the chickenpox vaccine prevent you from getting shingles later in life as well.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by pTamok on Saturday April 20 2019, @08:24PM (3 children)

      by pTamok (3042) on Saturday April 20 2019, @08:24PM (#832682)

      1960's - one year I got chicken pox, the next I had the measles. Mumps fit in there somewhere, and worst of all, rheumatic fever. We all got sick. And, as near as I remember, we all got over it. A lot of other "bad things" happened back then. We were given pocket knives, we played outside unsupervised, we walked to school, we rode bikes without wearing helmets, or any kind of padding - I could go on for awhile.

      I just can't get onboard this whole nanny state thing, helicopter parenting, and "think of the children" that everyone is so in to these days. To listen to parents today, none of us should have lived through the sixties.

      The plural of anecdote is not data.

      The recorded risks of MMR vaccine are lower than the risks of serious side-effects from any of the diseases MMR provides immunity against. Yes, for most people, childhood diseases are survivable with no long-term effects. However, some people die from complications, and others have long term disabilities. Medical statistics show you have a lower risk of serious problems from the vaccinations than from the diseases. No-one says the vaccinations are risk free, but the statistics are clear, if you care to look.

      Some people, for entirely legitimate medical reasons (usually compromised or not fully developed immune systems (such as infants)) are unable to be vaccinated. Herd immunity means that the amount of pathogens in circulation in the general population is minimised, meaning that unvaccinated people have a lower risk of infection. By contributing to herd immunity, you are helping such people (including infants).

      There is no good argument against vaccination. By not vaccinating, you are demonstrating you are irrational, and also have no wish to help those who cannot be vaccinated.

      I managed to survive measles, mumps and chicken-pox as a kid, with no apparent long term effects. Others were not so lucky. E.g. one of Roald Dahl's daughters, Olivia [roalddahl.com] died from the complications of measles in November 1962.

      Andrew Wakefield has caused the death and disability of many children due to his shoddy research. Please do not contribute to the waves of wilful ignorance that surround vaccination.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:06PM (1 child)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:06PM (#832733)

        The recorded risks of MMR vaccine are lower than the risks of serious side-effects from any of the diseases MMR provides immunity against.

        Not saying you are wrong, but I will claim that there is a reporting / recording bias in the data.

        Not MMR, but a HepA vaccine dose gave our 2 year old a 107 fever approximately 8-10 hours after administration. We managed to get it controlled with ice packs and a combo of multiple NSAIDs, before he started seizing, and the fever passed within ~36 hours. Friends of ours had a similar reaction in their child, lower numbers on the thermometer, but their child did have febrile seizures. We reported to the Emergency room that this appeared to be a vaccine reaction, as did our friends, but it never went "up the chain" to be collected in the adverse reactions database.

        If you can prove causal linkage and actual damages, there is the vaccine adverse reaction compensation fund, they are not generous with it. Lawyers fight to protect the fund using all the usual lawyer tactics and the parents who win settlements from it tend to have medical & legal backgrounds in addition to severely crippled children with well documented and virtually incontrovertible causal linkage to the vaccination. Even still, it takes years in court to prove the case - malpractice is a much softer target, when applicable.

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 1) by pTamok on Monday April 22 2019, @10:01AM

          by pTamok (3042) on Monday April 22 2019, @10:01AM (#833329)

          The recorded risks of MMR vaccine are lower than the risks of serious side-effects from any of the diseases MMR provides immunity against.

          Not saying you are wrong, but I will claim that there is a reporting / recording bias in the data.

          Not MMR, but a HepA vaccine dose gave our 2 year old a 107 fever approximately 8-10 hours after administration. We managed to get it controlled with ice packs and a combo of multiple NSAIDs, before he started seizing, and the fever passed within ~36 hours. Friends of ours had a similar reaction in their child, lower numbers on the thermometer, but their child did have febrile seizures. We reported to the Emergency room that this appeared to be a vaccine reaction, as did our friends, but it never went "up the chain" to be collected in the adverse reactions database.

          If you can prove causal linkage and actual damages, there is the vaccine adverse reaction compensation fund, they are not generous with it. Lawyers fight to protect the fund using all the usual lawyer tactics and the parents who win settlements from it tend to have medical & legal backgrounds in addition to severely crippled children with well documented and virtually incontrovertible causal linkage to the vaccination. Even still, it takes years in court to prove the case - malpractice is a much softer target, when applicable.

          There might be bias. I can accept that. I would be very happy for funds to be made available to examine/study the possibility of bias and means to remedy it if there turns out to be significant evidence of bias. I certainly do not believe there is a conspiracy to minimize the reporting of the untoward effects of vaccines. Personally, I think the adverse reactions reporting of all medical treatments is poor in coverage, but I do not know if the less then 100% coverage results in statistically significant differences in evaluations. For example, there are sampling techniques that can be used to estimate the actual prevalence of reactions given the population size and actual reporting rate compared to a known effect rate. It might not be necessary to have perfect reporting to have results that are 'good enough'. However, your point is a good one, and it is reasonable to ask if under-reporting bias is investigated and controlled for in risk assessments. I don't know, but I would hazard a guess that the problem is known about and mitigated. As ever, providing more resources is likely to improve the process.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21 2019, @04:44PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21 2019, @04:44PM (#832994)

        "Some people, for entirely legitimate medical reasons (usually compromised or not fully developed immune systems (such as infants)) are unable to be vaccinated. Herd immunity means that the amount of pathogens in circulation in the general population is minimised, meaning that unvaccinated people have a lower risk of infection. By contributing to herd immunity, you are helping such people (including infants).

        There is no good argument against vaccination. By not vaccinating, you are demonstrating you are irrational, and also have no wish to help those who cannot be vaccinated."

        other people's immune system is not my fucking problem. nor are their children, in general. fuck your herd in it's goat ass.

    • (Score: 4, Touché) by darkfeline on Saturday April 20 2019, @08:49PM (2 children)

      by darkfeline (1030) on Saturday April 20 2019, @08:49PM (#832694) Homepage

      >And, as near as I remember, we all got over it.

      Yeah, because the ones who died from it are not around to tell us about how they died from measles. Funny, that.

      --
      Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:48PM

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:48PM (#832748)

        >And, as near as I remember, we all got over it.

        Yeah, because the ones who died from it are not around to tell us about how they died from measles. Funny, that.

        When somebody died in my high school (student pop 1200), it was a pretty huge deal that everybody knew about and basically didn't talk about much else for over a month.

        When somebody got hepatitis and dropped out for a year recovering, only their very close friends really knew about it.

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:17AM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:17AM (#832788) Journal

        As Joe Merchant says, I remember clearly the loss of each classmate. Hit by a car, while walking at night. Hit by a car while cycling. Drunk driving on prom night. Smeared himself down the side of a shool bus on a motorcycle. Died in a housefire. There were no "Sally died because measles/chickenpox/mumps/whatever." I do remember Sandra, who had one and 1/4 arms. I don't recall ever hearing how that happened, but I don't think any of the diseases we are discussing took her arm off. Death of a classmate tends to make a pretty big impression of children. It's at least equal to the death of a shipmate, or a workmate.

    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:28PM (7 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:28PM (#832714)

      1960's - one year I got chicken pox, the next I had the measles. Mumps fit in there somewhere, and worst of all, rheumatic fever. We all got sick. And, as near as I remember, we all got over it. A lot of other "bad things" happened back then. We were given pocket knives, we played outside unsupervised, we walked to school, we rode bikes without wearing helmets, or any kind of padding - I could go on for awhile.

      Ditto for the 1970's... around age 9 or 10 I started riding my bike far from home, hours at a time, and yet not only did nothing bad happen to me, my parents were never threatened with child neglect, either. I will say that deadly car crashes seemed much more common back then - cars made in the early 1960s were pretty bad, safety wise.

      My grandparents were born in the 1910's, according to them bad stuff really did happen back then: polio, tetanus, murder hobos, teeth falling out, drafted to fight in wars, an economic depression that really killed people...

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]
      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:44PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:44PM (#832746)

        I had Chicken Pox in the 70s and wished there had been a vaccine then, because the Shingles in the 2000s were a lot worse.

        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:52PM (5 children)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:52PM (#832749)

          As I understand it, childhood chicken pox is a stronger protector against adult shingles than the vaccine. Even the adult vaccine is not complete protection against the shingles, claims to the contrary appear to be optimistic.

          --
          🌻🌻 [google.com]
          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @11:51PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @11:51PM (#832773)

            At the risk of inserting information into a forum full of anti-vaxxers, see link below:

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/shingles/public/shingrix/index.html [cdc.gov]

            Excerpt from link:

            How Well Does Shingrix Work?
            Two doses of Shingrix provides strong protection against shingles and postherpetic neuralgia (PHN), the most common complication of shingles.

            In adults 50 to 69 years old who got two doses, Shingrix was 97% effective in preventing shingles; among adults 70 years and older, Shingrix was 91% effective.
            In adults 50 to 69 years old who got two doses, Shingrix was 91% effective in preventing PHN; among adults 70 years and older, Shingrix was 89% effective

            (PHN is nerve pain as a result of a shingles infection.)

            • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday April 22 2019, @04:54PM (1 child)

              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday April 22 2019, @04:54PM (#833448)

              When I read these 97% efficacy rates, and yet 2 of 4 family members who have been vaccinated still had serious problems with shingles, I start to distrust the sources quoting 97% efficacy.

              --
              🌻🌻 [google.com]
              • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 22 2019, @07:18PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 22 2019, @07:18PM (#833494)

                You know 2 out of 4 people getting shingles isn't that surprising, neither is 4 out of 4. That's why sample sizes used in research are much larger. Personally I know 10 people who have gotten the vaccine and none of them have had shingles. Now I'm not saying that is proof the vaccine is 100% effective, I'm just saying that is the problem with small sample sizes, especially when they are parts of sub-populations rather than a representative sample.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21 2019, @06:09AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21 2019, @06:09AM (#832866)

            What? No. Shingles is the reactivation of the latent VZV in your nerve cells. You can only get shingles if you have had chickenpox first. If you are vaccinated against VZV, then you drastically reduce the ability of the virus to get to your nerve cells before being recognized by the body. Therefore, there is no latent infection to reactivate.

          • (Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Monday April 22 2019, @04:18PM

            by cmdrklarg (5048) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 22 2019, @04:18PM (#833434)

            Didn't stop me from getting shingles.

            --
            The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
    • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:36PM

      by Gaaark (41) on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:36PM (#832717) Journal

      When I was a kid, we (smart Canadian kids) got to play with firecrackers. We did it safely and used them to destroy small shit (unwanted toys, etc).

      Then the stupids got hold of them and started putting them in each others asses, pockets,etc.

      Now, they're banned. I say let Darwin get rid of them instead of the firecrackers.

      --
      --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 2) by jelizondo on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:32PM (3 children)

      by jelizondo (653) Subscriber Badge on Saturday April 20 2019, @10:32PM (#832745) Journal

      So no arc flash protection [soylentnews.org] for you?

      Are you wearing protection because of the "nanny state" or because you realize there are dangerous situations that can be prevented?

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:30AM (2 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday April 21 2019, @12:30AM (#832794) Journal

        I'm a believer in fire protective clothing because I've lived in environments where fire is a far greater threat than most civilians will ever face. I'm a believer in fire protection because I've witnessed first hand how fire mutilates and maims people. I'm a believer in fire protection because I've been bitten by that particular monster, three times in my life. Arc flash is either a sibling to fire, or first cousin.

        I'm not so much a believer in vaccinations, because, among other things, corporate greed sparked our present day opiate crisis. As others have already pointed out, there is profit to be made in the vax industry.

        Seeing that you read my journal entry - you will recall that I note the profit motive in making my fire protection less effective. I believe in 100% natural fibers, because I've personally seen cotton and wool begin to smolder, then extinguish themselves upon removal from the heat source. I have witnessed the results of common, cheap synthetic fibers melting into the skin.

        I will always trust the evidence of my own senses over the claims of people who have a profit motive in regards to any given issue.

        • (Score: 2) by jelizondo on Sunday April 21 2019, @05:13AM (1 child)

          by jelizondo (653) Subscriber Badge on Sunday April 21 2019, @05:13AM (#832858) Journal

          I was not talking about vaccines in particular, you mentioned riding bikes without a helmet and other childhood experiences that are very different today.

          I have indeed those same experiences growing up in the 60s, plus riding motorcycles without more protection than the street clothes I was wearing and other stupid things, but age has thaught me that I was very lucky (and very stupid) back when I was a kid; not even a broken bone, but that does not mean I wish my kids (or grandkids) to test their luck.

          I agree greed has spawned great evil, but if you trust evidence, then you have to agree a vaccinated child is safer than one who isn't.

          And again, as both us have no small children, vaccines are a moot point.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21 2019, @06:11AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 21 2019, @06:11AM (#832867)

            His comments here have made clear that he can't relate to things that haven't happened to either himself or another person he knows directly.

    • (Score: 2) by Nobuddy on Monday April 22 2019, @01:40PM (2 children)

      by Nobuddy (1626) on Monday April 22 2019, @01:40PM (#833373)

      I had malaria, and lived. Therefore malaria never killed anyone.

      Sounds stupid, dosen't it?

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday April 22 2019, @04:43PM (1 child)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 22 2019, @04:43PM (#833441) Journal

        Except, I never claimed that none of the diseases I mentioned "never killed anyone". Arguing vaccinations is much like arguing gun rights. The side demanding control appeals to emotion, and the side refusing control refuses to be swayed by emotion.

        When all is said and done, we all die. Some die early, some die late, but we all die. If we are all that very concerned about death, we should concentrate on the two, three, or four major killers. Are we ready to rebuild our society so that no one needs to get out on the highway, and race like madmen to work every morning, amongst a million other rats who are racing just as hard?

        One legitimate worry about vaccinations is, how long until one of those common diseases mutates, and we are unable to adapt the vaccinations to them? A disease that may have killed 1 in 1000, may just kill 1 in 100, or 1 in 10, when it comes back stronger than ever.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 22 2019, @10:40PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 22 2019, @10:40PM (#833569)

          The thing about mutations are that they are random. Whether you vaccinate or not, they can mutate such that the current antibody binding sites no longer work; whether you vaccinate or not, they can mutate such that they become more virulent or lethal. Sure vaccination might change the selective pressure to mutate binding sites, but so does having a disease that the majority of the population has had.

  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:52PM (3 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:52PM (#832586) Journal

    There is no good evidence that measles is any more dangerous than MMR in countries with modern healthcare systems.

    But there is plenty of evidence that measles is more dangerous in countries that don't have near universal measles vaccination. After all, you can't catch the MMR vaccine from another person.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @03:02PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 20 2019, @03:02PM (#832592)

      No, measles was not dangerous already before vaccines in those countries.

      • (Score: 3, Flamebait) by pe1rxq on Saturday April 20 2019, @03:14PM

        by pe1rxq (844) on Saturday April 20 2019, @03:14PM (#832595) Homepage

        except for mild complications like death...
        So according to you, a parent stupid enough not to trust vaccines all of a sudden does the right thing when the kids get the dissease?

    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:56PM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:56PM (#832727)

      you can't catch the MMR vaccine from another person.

      Does being forced by your government count?

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]
  • (Score: 5, Informative) by RandomFactor on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:54PM (2 children)

    by RandomFactor (3682) Subscriber Badge on Saturday April 20 2019, @02:54PM (#832588) Journal

    There is no good evidence that measles is any more dangerous than MMR in countries with modern healthcare systems. Eg US/UK circa 1960 level.

    argumentum ad ignorantiam [wikipedia.org] - "asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false"
     
    I agree that the number and severity of complications will be reduced with access to advanced healthcare, but that healthcare is not without costs of its own. Even ignoring the limited resources involved and associated opportunity costs for those resources, hospital stays to try to live through things like encephalitis and pneumonia are not minor. Also some of these complications are not going to be strongly coupled to the general level of healthcare regardless.
     
    Both the diseases themselves and the common complications of the diseases are significantly worse than the typical side effects of MMR vaccination.
     
    Looking at just complications and then only the more common ones:
     
    Measles - https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html [cdc.gov]

    Common Complications

    Common measles complications include ear infections and diarrhea.

            Ear infections occur in about one out of every 10 children with measles and can result in permanent hearing loss.
            Diarrhea is reported in less than one out of 10 people with measles.

    Severe Complications

    Some people may suffer from severe complications, such as pneumonia (infection of the lungs) and encephalitis (swelling of the brain). They may need to be hospitalized and could die.

            As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.
            About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or with intellectual disability.
            For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.

    Measles may cause pregnant woman to give birth prematurely, or have a low-birth-weight baby.

    Mumps - https://www.cdc.gov/mumps/about/complications.html [cdc.gov]

    Mumps can occasionally cause complications, especially in adults.
    Complications can include:

            inflammation of the testicles (orchitis) in males who have reached puberty; this may lead to a decrease in testicular size (testicular atrophy)
            inflammation of the ovaries (oophoritis) and/or breast tissue (mastitis)
            inflammation in the pancreas (pancreatitis)
            inflammation of the brain (encephalitis)
            inflammation of the tissue covering the brain and spinal cord (meningitis)
            deafness

    Rubella - https://www.cdc.gov/rubella/about/complications.html [cdc.gov]

    Complications
    Up to 70% of women who get rubella may experience arthritis; this is rare in children and men. In rare cases, rubella can cause serious problems, including brain infections and bleeding problems.

    The most serious complication from rubella infection is the harm it can cause a pregnant woman’s developing baby. If an unvaccinated pregnant woman gets infected with rubella virus she can have a miscarriage, or her baby can die just after birth. Also, she can pass the virus to her developing baby who can develop serious birth defects such as—

            heart problems,
            loss of hearing and eyesight,
            intellectual disability, and
            liver or spleen damage.

    Serious birth defects are more common if a woman is infected early in her pregnancy, especially in the first trimester. These severe birth defects are known as congenital rubella syndrome (CRS).

    MMR Vaccine - https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/mmr-vaccine.html [cdc.gov]

    Common Side Effects of MMR Vaccine

            Sore arm from the shot
            Fever
            Mild rash
            Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women who did not already have immunity to the rubella component of the vaccine

    --
    В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday April 20 2019, @07:40PM (1 child)

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday April 20 2019, @07:40PM (#832671) Homepage

      Common Side Effects of MMR Vaccine

              Autism
              Out of control brain swelling from runaway fever
              dementia
              death

      The Jewish people in New York who were against vaccination had good reasons to be -- They know their fellow sleeper-agents in the big pharma and the FDA are the ones doping the vaccines with toxic crap and looking the other way.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:25PM

        by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Saturday April 20 2019, @09:25PM (#832712) Homepage Journal

        I put a Jewish guy in charge of my FDA, so what? Scott's a great guy. Very smart guy and he's doing a great job. He's moving very strongly against the Tobacco Companies and their filthy products. And moving very strongly to bring new & VERY CHEAP Drugs to the American "people." Check your Medicine Chest. Look at the very special pills you could never get before -- because of me!!!!