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Swiss voters on Sunday approved a measure to tighten the Alpine nation's gun laws, bringing the country in line with many of its European partners despite the objections of local gun owners, Swiss media reported, citing official results.
Switzerland's public broadcaster said more than 63% of voters nationwide agreed to align with European Union firearms rules adopted two years ago after deadly attacks in France, Belgium, Germany and Britain.
The vote Sunday was part of Switzerland's regular referendums that give citizens a direct say in policymaking. It had stoked passions in a country with long, proud traditions of gun ownership and sport and target shooting. Switzerland, unlike many other European nations, allows veterans of its obligatory military service for men to take home their service weapons after tours of duty.
The Swiss proposal, among other things, requires regular training on the use of firearms, special waivers to own some semi-automatic weapons and serial number tracking system for key parts of some guns. Gun owners would have to register any weapons not already registered within three years, and keep a registry of their gun collections.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Arik on Friday May 24 2019, @01:07AM (14 children)
If you mean me personally, no, don't own one. Never have.
But that's entirely beside the point. Which is that you're arguing from emotion not knowledge. The way you phrase that question makes it clear you don't understand what you are asking. I don't say that to be mean, but if you don't understand that you don't understand then it will be very difficult to get you to understand.
You realize, hopefully, that assault rifles are extremely regulated in the USA already? Since before they were even invented, actually, as the NFA goes back to 1934 and the first assault rifle only entered service in 1943. Yes, you can own one, if you have a squeaky clean record and maintain it, but the paperwork and extra taxes involved are prohibitive to regular people.
What I assume you're referring to are not assault rifles. They're just autoloading rifles, the same kind we've been hunting with for well over a century - but with cosmetic features derived from assault rifles. The most common is what's referred to as the "AR 15 Platform" and "Platform" in this case has a meaning very much like a compatibility standard in computing. So if you buy an AR 15 style carbine and then you buy some extra stuff, some mods, you can THEN go back later and buy a BETTER base, and transfer your mods.
You're working yourself up over a nothingness - a demon conjured by some propagandist, out of your own ignorance.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Friday May 24 2019, @01:26AM (5 children)
Whataboutism and quibbling to bury the point at its finest.
You know damn well what GP AC, in his/her ignorance, was talking about. I grew up around guns. I've shot a lot of them myself. My dad was a proud member of the NRA for several decades before it was taken over by loonies, and he taught me from when I was a young child.
Stop pretending to reply and actually address a post for once. Stop arguing by sidestepping the real issues. You know damn well that so many weapons easily purchased in the U.S. are not necessary for everyday self-defense.
Be honest about the motivations behind the gun lobby -- they like big guns and they like to shoot them. For many gun owners, it's just that. They love the feel of going to a shooting range and rapid-firing a bunch of rounds into a target.
On the other hand, many of them suffer from delusional paranoia about the government. (Note that there are very good reasons to be paranoid about the government -- I'm talking about people who think they need an arsenal of guns because the feds are going to break down their door... which they might now, because they're mentally ill enough to suffer delusions and stockpile giant amounts of weapons... thus becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.) Many of them suffer from delusional paranoia about race wars, immigrants, etc. They "work [themselves] up over a nothingness - a demon conjured by some propagandist, out of [their] own ignorance."
What you say is beside the point. Be honest about the reasons behind U.S. gun policy. It's not about personal protection alone. It's about other stuff, too, which is why U.S. gun policy is so extreme compared to other places.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Friday May 24 2019, @01:52AM (3 children)
Nope. Quite the opposite, from where I sit.
"You know damn well what GP AC, in his/her ignorance, was talking about."
Well, I think I do at least, I obviously think I understood it well enough to correct it.
I believe he was worried because he thought all these AR-15 tacticool modular builds are actual assault rifles.
In that case he should rest easy, they simply aren't.
It's absolute foolishness to get worked up because you think someone's rifle just *looks* too evil. And that's what this boils down to, but it's whipped up by a dishonest media among a largely ignorant populace.
What next, will you come for my guitar, because it too *looks really evil?*
"I grew up around guns. I've shot a lot of them myself. My dad was a proud member of the NRA for several decades before it was taken over by loonies, and he taught me from when I was a young child."
I'm going to take that profession with a dose of salt for now, I have seen little if anything to make it seem credible.
"Stop pretending to reply and actually address a post for once."
And just what would I have to do in order for you to admit that I've addressed the post?
"You know damn well that so many weapons easily purchased in the U.S. are not necessary for everyday self-defense."
I should certainly hope not!
And nowhere did I say or imply that. What on earth are you on about?
Boy that would really be a sad commentary, if most purchases were because someone expected to have to defend themselves!
No, I'm sure most purchases are for plinking, or varmint culling, or hunting, or something like that. As it should be.
But the reason that we *as a people* chose to enshrine this as one of our very highest values, chose to encourage universal or near-universal ownership of weapons, THAT has a lot to do with self defense. Even more to do with militia, of course.
I think it's appropriate when we exercise our liberty in regards to plinking or hunting or what have you, that we recall that the REASON we have such unparalleled freedom to arm as we like is because we live in a free country, one which does not depend on a standing army of slaves or mercenaries for its ultimate security, but on the people as a whole.
"Be honest about the motivations behind the gun lobby -- they like big guns and they like to shoot them. For many gun owners, it's just that. They love the feel of going to a shooting range and rapid-firing a bunch of rounds into a target."
Hmmm. Not sure about your first sentence, more dishonest framing I think. But the rest of it? Even if so, so what? Nothing wrong with that. FFS, you sound really repressed, like you need a therapist, or a prostitute. Or maybe a couple hours at the range with a .50 BMG would set you straight?
There's nothing at all wrong with liking to shoot, or to drive fast cars, or fly planes. It's a natural human desire. Of course there's a need for care, be safe, but you seem to be implying it's some sort of moral failing.
It's ok to be human.
Your penultimate paragraph is really only objectionable in context, so I won't address it specifically.
"What you say is beside the point. Be honest about the reasons behind U.S. gun policy. It's not about personal protection alone. It's about other stuff, too, which is why U.S. gun policy is so extreme compared to other places."
Oh yeah, see my prior reply.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 24 2019, @02:44AM (2 children)
So, this is mostly about having a fun hobby? Then why in the very next sentence do you say:
So, which is it? Is this about having a fun hobby? Or is it about protection? And exactly what armed militia do you think would be appropriate for Adam Lanza, Stephen Paddock, Devin Patrick Kelley, or Nikolas Cruz? Remember, if you are aiming for "near-universal ownership of weapons", then those guys are inevitably going to be armed too.
Your notions of protecting the homeland with a citizen militia are arguably a bit dated. And, if security of the home front is your true objective then you can always serve in the military. You know? That armed group which is populated by the citizens of these United States of America? That military? Why can't you protect and serve in the military?
(Score: 2) by Arik on Friday May 24 2019, @03:14AM (1 child)
"So, which is it?"
I thought I had made it rather clear, but I shall endeavor to make it crystal.
It's both, of course. You're talking about two different things.
The reason that we hold this as cultural and legal value? Or the reason we buy a weapon?
Two very different things. We hold it as a collective value based on the history already mentioned, and we tend to buy them as individuals for the other reasons, also already mentioned.
"And, if security of the home front is your true objective then you can always serve in the military."
Now there's a sentence the founders would have certainly found offensive.
How many levels of nonsense are there?
The assumption that a standing military is a better foundation for national security than an armed citizenry is diametrically opposed to the values of liberal democracy on which this country was founded. And it makes absolutely no sense.
Plus, you're assuming that I'm of age to for that employment, and not currently employed there, why?
Why do you keep trying to make everything into a personal jab of some kind? Why can't you just discuss the ideas without all this rhetoric?
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 24 2019, @04:16AM
The founders are no longer with us to offer their opinion on that.
We are no longer in the 18th century, dude! The plain fact is that we now have a standing military made up (mostly) of US citizens. Do you not trust your fellow citizens in protection of he homeland? Why is that?
Look, when you put your ideas out there on full display don't be too surprised if the rest of us do a complete vivsection on them. Or should we just accept your pearls of wisdom without cross examination?
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 24 2019, @02:22AM
Ever single thing you must do to shoot accurately especially at distance, is exactly like meditation. Control your breathing, your heartrate (seriously, the pulse of blood from a heartbeat will affect your aim), and focus your mind down to a singlular focus free from the clutter of random thoughts. Precision target shooting is one of the most calming activities one can do. Bubba don't know it, but he's a Buddha on the range.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 24 2019, @02:17AM (7 children)
Oh, yes, please do explain what it is I am really asking. No, really. Please proceed.
Mean? Perhaps not. Patronizing? Yes, definitely. I think I understand well enough, thank you very much.
Extremely regulated? The National Shooting Sports Foundation has estimated that approximately 5 million to 10 million AR-15 style rifles exist in the U.S. within the broader total of the 300 million firearms owned by Americans. [wikipedia.org] It doesn't look to me like the taxes or the paperwork are all that prohibitive to the average American if there are 5 to 10 million in circulation. And, considering that these weapons end up in the hands of deranged nut cases with alarming regularity, it doesn't look like you need all that much of a clean record to get access to one.
A nothing? A demon conjured by some propagandist? Sandy Hook, [wikipedia.org] San Bernardino, [wikipedia.org] Las Vegas 2017, [wikipedia.org] Sutherland Springs, [wikipedia.org] and Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School [wikipedia.org] don't look to me to be mere "propaganda". Unfortunately, these "conjured demons" look to me to be all too objectively real.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Friday May 24 2019, @02:38AM (5 children)
Ah, here we go.
This is how they've been frightening you. Torturing you, one might say, with these phantasms.
Again, "AR-15 Style Rifles" != Assault Rifles
They simply aren't! It's nonsense.
They're regular autoloaders in a standard form modeled on the military rifle (so they look mean! and so they can interchange mods, much of the time at least.) Exactly as I explained to you, even if you found it patronizing it's the truth. Those are no more assault rifles than my model airplane is a real warbird. You've literally been wound up to a point of existential panic, by these news organizations, over something that isn't even true.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 24 2019, @02:59AM (4 children)
Frankly, "AR-15 Style Rifles" versus "Assault Rifles" seems to me to be a distinction with very little difference. According to this wiki page, [wikipedia.org] the primary distinction between civilian semi-automatic rifles and military assault rifles is select fire. [wikipedia.org] But if you feel the need to "educate" me further, go right ahead; seeing the emptiness of your argument would be amusing if it were not so sad.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Friday May 24 2019, @03:20AM (3 children)
Yes, the difference is selective fire. The difference is an automatic weapon versus an autoloading weapon. This is a huge difference, an order of magnitude difference, and it's not coincidentally exactly the line between weapons designed for 'sporting' uses and for military ones.
So you don't think that's an important difference, even though that difference is *literally the definition* of the difference.
But you do think that it's horribly important that AR 15 style rifles look scary, right?
Even though they work almost exactly like an antique hunting rifle, aside from the bling, that's far more important than the actual definition of the words you've chosen to make your argument with.
Such a logical argument.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 24 2019, @03:56AM (2 children)
The difference is that with an "AR-15 Style Rifle" for civilian use you are restricted to semi-automatic fire whereas with an "Assault Rifle" you have the option of burst mode or full automatic. While that is certainly good fodder for politicians to split hairs over it makes little difference when you find yourself on the business end of one of these weapons. You are making this out to be a much bigger deal than it is. You can drink the NRA's kool-aid if you want, but I'm not. And since you brought up the military, commanding officers really hate it when those under their command switch to full auto or burst mode; they (usually) consider it a waste of good ammunition.
I don't give a damn about how scary they look; that's a phantom inhabiting your own imagination. What I care about is what the rifles, whether they be <sarcasm>"AR 15 style rifles" or "assault rifles",</sarcasm> can actually do. And whether you have to pull the trigger once for each bullet or you can set to burst mode or full auto makes very little distinction in that calculation.
Misdirection is not going to help you any. Your "antique" bolt action hunting rifle is not a semi-automatic weapon. For someone who is trying to "educate" me, you aren't doing a very good job of it.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Friday May 24 2019, @10:46AM (1 child)
"Your "antique" bolt action hunting rifle is not a semi-automatic weapon."
I didn't say anything about bolt action and you know it.
The Remington Model 8 (on the market since 1905) is an antique, a hunting rifle no one confuses with an 'assault rifle' (because it doesn't look evil, having a wood stock instead of carbon fiber, which makes it a bit heavier to lug around) and it works just the same way.
"For someone who is trying to "educate" me, you aren't doing a very good job of it."
Casting pearls before swine, no doubt.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 27 2019, @06:51PM
Exactly. Take that same rifle, put on an adjustable polymer stock so the 6'2" guy and he 5'4" wife can both shoot it comfortably, a muzzle brake to help with recoil, and an extended mag so you can put more holes in the paper without reloading, and it's suddenly an illegal "assault weapon" (code for "scary looking gun").
And don't you dare put on a suppressor so you can use lighter hearing protection. What are you, a terrorist?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 24 2019, @02:53AM
The taxes are for assault rifles. That means select fire OK? Full auto. Machine gun. While it has been illegal to make new assault rifles for the civilian market since 1986, it is still perfectly legal to own one that entered the market before that law went into effect (you'll probably need at minimum $10,000 and usually a lot more) providing you have the appropriate tax stamp which includes an intrusive background check and registration of the firearm in your name with the ATF. There are actually several types of devices regulated in that manner: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/which-firearms-are-regulated-under-nfa [atf.gov]
An AR15 that you can go buy at a Cabellas is NOT an assault rifle because you cannot select "full auto" or "semi auto" with a switch mounted on the receiver. The one you by at Cabellas is semi auto only -- like a common double action revolver, it will fire once each time you pull the trigger but will not fire fully automatically.
This is one of the most informative movies on how firearms work that exists. It starts at zero -- just a pipe, a cartridge, a nail and a ball peen hammer and by the end, you will be familiar with the most common types of modern operation (well, bolt action and self-loading, and of self-loading, blowback, gas, and recoil operation, as well as SA trigger group, full auto trigger group, and select fire trigger group). If you want to see how semi automatic fire works, skip to 31:35, full auto: skip to 36:25, select fire at 38:30. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJzXG7MYX1c [youtube.com] (bonus, at 1:30 is an example of a "clip")