SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
Dominos Australia has taken a controversial step in having five of its stores go cashless for pizza pickups in the name of reducing pickup time and queues. Dubbing the new system "tap and take" Dominos hopes that it will reduce waiting times, increase convenience, increase safety and reduce costs involved with handling cash so that they can "remain digitally agile and continue to meet consumer demands". The trial is not winning any points with Libertarians who believe that the government is pushing businesses to crack down on the cash economy with concerns about the government taking a big brother attitude to monitoring business cashflow. While a number of businesses in Australia are cashless, removing the option tends to put customers off with a number of businesses just bearing the loss of profit from customers who prefer to pay with cash.
(Score: 3, Disagree) by ledow on Wednesday July 10 2019, @07:01PM (21 children)
Why?
Why are you concerned that a store knows what serial number note you gave them? Where else do you think they are correlating that information? At which point does that note go back into circulation and tie itself back to you, where the shop can watch that whole trail happen?
P.S. You gave them the note. They have the number, the time of your visit, what you bought and how much and what you paid with. It's all there. Has been for the last 50+ years. What do you think they're going to do with that?
Hint: The benefits of this tracking even with cards and loyalty schemes is near-zero. It was helpful in the 80's, when nobody else had it, but now they all do the figures are useless. There's nothing in any loyalty scheme that tells you anything that the till receipts don't - how many you sold, when and alongside what else. The data is worthless nowadays.
Going cashless may not have massive advantages to the consumer but it has some. Mug me. Go on. What have you got out of it? Several cards, none of which you can use, all of which will trace their every transaction minutes after the theft, and all of which will refund me.
I am basically cashless. There's no point in me carrying cash. I don't use it for anything worthwhile. The only cash I have is in a tray in my car for parking (the one thing we *haven't* worked out properly is cashless parking, which is always an absolute balls-up for no real reason). If people give me cash, I get rid of it ASAP. I don't want to be carrying it around and it's too much a pain in the butt to pay it into a bank.
Every bill, my rent, my salary - all electronically banked. In fact, it's quite difficult NOT to have those already - there are too many places now that won't deal in cash in those amounts. Money laundering legislation greatly complicates cash-handling now. I can't pay any rent in my city with cash unless you want to go really dubiously black-market. I can't pay most of my bills in cash at all, in any way. I can't even pay my tax in cash. Most people are paid under PAYE, which means that most salaries aren't ever paid in cash too.
There are vanishingly few places that won't take card, and I have a number of them for redundancy. Some of them are even entirely unrelated to ordinary credit companies - paying by Paypal by an NFC app, for example, doesn't actually touch my bank at all. Sure, if the world ends, maybe my cards won't work. But then cash is likely to be worthless to, being nothing more than a paper governmental promissory note.
What you increasingly can't do, though, is live "bank-less" or "card-less". It makes your life very difficult and also more expensive (not to mention wears your shoe leather a whole lot more).
Your money is already nothing but a number in a spreadsheet. Zimbabwe should have taught you that. If you want to protect yourself, you invest in tangibles. But cash isn't a tangible. It gets more worthless every day you're holding onto that note. My country used to make 1/2p coins when I was younger, they have just rejected scrapping 1p/2p coins by a very narrow margin despite both being even more worthless than the 1/2p was when it was discontinued.
Self-checkouts are just a saving on ongoing labour costs, not a government conspiracy. They don't profit from that kind of shitty metadata.
To be honest, I could - and would - go cashless tomorrow. I'm damn close to it already. The other year I bought my daughter a credit card (it's pre-pay, though, so no "credit" but it is a full Visa). Why? Because when she grows up, cash is going to be niche at best, as dead as cheques at worst (oh, yes, cheques are dead... 100% dead in daily life). Better she understands how to use them now than gets taught a load of useless change-counting nonsense for decades that she'll never use (P.S. I'm a mathematician). My work colleagues so took to my explanation of why she has one that they all got their kids one too.
I grew up with pens, I haven't done more than jot-notes and signed my name in two decades - I married, divorced, bought and sold a house without touching a pen.
I grew up with encyclopaedia, I haven't consulted one since I left school.
I grew up with landline telephones, I live off 4G, from multiple independent providers.
I grew up with broadcast television, I literally haven't owned one for half my adult life and when I use one it's to show non-broadcast content.
I grew up with cash, I haven't done more than feed a parking meter in years.
Kids don't even understand the concept of cash when they're young now (P.S. I work in schools). Their music and TV, not to mention groceries and household items, are ordered, paid for and delivery arranged entirely online. (P.S. I haven't done Christmas shopping in a shop in 15 years... I instead get everything off "wishlists" I've been building for each person for years, get them wrapped and delivered to the recipient - even people I can't visit personally - and then I enjoy the Christmas season not traipsing around crowded high streets).
Whether or not you get on board, the train already left. You're the last of them. Not because the government made us, but sheer pressure of market forces. Nobody "banned" cheques but they went out 10-15 years ago here, until they weren't used any more and the banks stopped issuing them by default (I believe if you ask, you can still get some). Nobody "banned" landlines or broadcast TV, people's habits changed and evolved.
And nobody is "banning" cash... but it doesn't mean it'll still be around in 10, 20, 50 years time. I'll be amazed if you survive another 10 years in a cash-only lifestyle before you are forced to succumb just because everything becomes so much more hassle and expensive. Cash handling is an expensive part of a business, and leaves them open to theft and burglary, not to mention the nightly "tot-up" and entering into the spreadsheets.
Vote with your wallet, quite literally. I highly advocate that kind of action. But I think you'll be disappointed with where it gets you. And the pizza chains will barely notice. You think they're, say, raking in 80% of their revenue in cash and so they try to kill it? Or do you think most people pay on card or order online, cash is a tiny minority of their intake, and cash handling and theft and staff-muggings cost them more than it's worth to deal with, and that's why they're doing it?
Think about it. Nobody's going to *force* you. But you're going to have to accept the inevitable or live a much harder life than necessary. And for what? Because you think you're important enough that some government agent is lining up serial numbers to track that bill you withdrew from the bank and then spent on a pizza a few days later? Come on...
(Score: 3, Informative) by Mer on Wednesday July 10 2019, @07:43PM (1 child)
You are basically cashless, good for you.
Your whole mentality isn't better than "nothing to hide nothing to fear". Only the guy choosing cash gets to decide if it's worth it to not let your bank have your payment history.
But because you are like this and worse, have a strong opinion about this instead of not caring (as a place going cashless changes nothing for you), you're making things worse for cash users. Sure, downwards the slippery slope everything will be cashless eventually.
But in the meanwhile, please don't support the cashless movement vocally, that's not asking you to use cash, just to not give them more positive feedback.
Shut up!, he explained.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Thursday July 11 2019, @08:30AM
No, I don't care what you have to hide. That's up to you. I no more want my bank looking at my purchases than I do a guy in the street.
And I don't say he can't. What I say is that it won't be an option for much longer. And it's not me driving it. I'm not pushing vendors, utilities, websites, etc. to go card-only. They just are, because it's got so many advantages to them that it's worthwhile and makes more sense.
If you can't spot that trend, then you just haven't been looking. And if my "championing" of it by.... well... literally falling into that lifestyle accidentally because I hate carrying cash around and can't be bothered with change and coins at all, and would rather have something that can't be stolen (I grew up in a not-very-nice area)... if that affects the rest of the world this guy lives in, it's by a pathetic amount.
It's a question of spotting the trend and accepting the inevitable. Fighting it is going to do literally nothing. Did we see any fuss at all when cheques were pretty much phased out across the UK? No. It's going to be like that. Prepare, and get yourself enough cards to cover eventualities now.
I didn't like buying my kid her card. It didn't feel "traditional". But she gets a lot of use out of it. If you haven't seen, even Monopoly sets have "credit-cards" now. They have had for over a decade. It's the norm. It's now actually completely on its head... you take money to a shop, pour it into a machine, and it puts a number in your account, rather than the other way around.
ATM use is dropping. Direct Debit use is soaring. Online transactions are through the roof. Cards are ubiquitous. Did you know that in a power outage last year in a large shopping centre near me, the shops all shut... because the card machines went down. That was 80% or more of their business right there. People just don't have the cash on them any more. Additionally, handling cash without the tills telling people what the change is is actually so long-winded that the shops all decided to just shut for the day, because it wasn't profitable to stay open for just cash transactions and was actually a security problem.
Now... I judge them for not having UPS and backups - on the tills, on a 4G card reader or something, but I bet those shops have prepped for that now. The fact is, though, that cash customers are second-class citizens. Even the traditionally cash-only businesses are forced to change. Everything from taxicabs to newspaper sellers, coffee shops to car parks.
It's not about "you must get on board!", it's about "we're going to leave you behind".
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Pino P on Wednesday July 10 2019, @09:11PM (7 children)
I've never seen a yard sale or garage sale that takes card. All are cash only. A lot of thrift shops refuse card for totals less than $5 as well because of the 30 cent swipe fee that gets tacked onto every transaction in addition to the 3% commission.
Which is doubly difficult for those who cannot scrape together $1,000 or so to maintain the minimum daily balance to avoid a monthly service fee that a bank charges on a checking account.
First, how much is that costing the two of you per month in fees? Second, I'm aware of a lot of parents who refuse to buy their children any payment card until age 18.
Does your house have its own 4G phone as well, so your daughter can make urgent calls between when she arrives home from school and when you arrive home from work? (I admit I'm making a lot of assumptions about the age of your daughter and about your employment situation.)
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday July 11 2019, @01:59AM (4 children)
You've got no pros in your neighborhood. While cash is the tradition, if anyone in the house runs an individual business it's not unusual to see something like a Square [squareup.com] come out at a yard sale to close a deal on a bigger item.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Funny) by Chocolate on Thursday July 11 2019, @02:51AM (3 children)
Sure we do. They take cash just like any other business where privacy is a must.
Bit-choco-coin anyone?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday July 11 2019, @11:13AM (2 children)
I never knew that buying somebody else's soon to be trash for pennies on the dollar of the retail price was a high privacy concern.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Thursday July 11 2019, @01:27PM (1 child)
Whoosh...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 12 2019, @06:14AM
Yes, the only Pros out there are golfers. Such a wonderful world we live in that they now come to your own house to help you with your.. shot.. swing.. whatever.
Brings new meaning to 'let me help you fix your swing'.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Thursday July 11 2019, @08:20AM (1 child)
As below.
I've been to many "flea" markets where everyone has Square or iZettle or lots of other alternatives, I kid you not. Not "the norm" yet but ever-growing. My ex- had one to sell her pottery to her friends, much more practical to get them to stick their card in and get an instant receipt on their phone than faff around trying to dig out notes that we'd have to bank.
But, let's be honest, a flea market selling second-hand goods in private-sales is hardly going to be anywhere near significant to the economy.
Plus, when I do go to them, I only spend what's in my car-parking-change-box anyway... what the hell are you buying that's more than that?
Given that some people *already* do exactly what you say, and the trend is against you, that minor pathetic part of the economy may or may not ever catch up, but it hardly matters. If you want my money, though, for that whatever-it-is that you're selling, which costs something more than a few pence, and I don't have the cash but really want it, a little box that costs nothing to buy but charges 1% will get you that money. Not having one will lose that sale. It's quite simple. The "traders" (i.e. the house-clearance people, etc.) already have them. They just whack 1% on the price and run your card through. A sale is a sale.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Pino P on Thursday July 11 2019, @11:46AM
I'm trying to avoid a phenomenon where a seller must be "significant" or not sell at all. One already sees this with Amazon's $40 per month membership fee on top of the 15% commission.
I just looked at Square pricing [squareup.com] again, and it turns out that Square appears to lack the per-transaction fee that is so problematic for "car-parking-change-box" scale transactions. The $49 chip reader, on the other hand, would need to push a lot of sales to recover its price. The magnetic stripe reader is less expensive, but in 2019, is it still considered acceptable to take cash or magnetic stripe cards only, no Google Pay, no Apple Pay, no chip?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by SomeGuy on Wednesday July 10 2019, @09:32PM (1 child)
You should ask yourself why you care so much about everyone doing things your One True Way that you just wrote several pages of text promoting it.
It is quite eloquent text and more than 140 characters, so kudos there, but it does not say one thing about WHY anyone should give up the freedom of cash other than, in summary, "derrrh, everyone should do it my way"
Why should there be no alternatives? Why should we give up advantages of older ways just to please you?
I've written database systems that eliminated boxes of paper forms that were literally stacked up to the ceiling. I send e-mails and post on message boards because that is faster and cheaper than sending paper by postal service. But when I am writing random notes or organizing thoughts, I enjoy the freedom of a pen and paper.
So did I, and they were fairly useless. When I wanted to find something out, I usually had to figure it out for myself. I research all kinds of things these days, usually online, but when I want some reference that will stay around for a while, I enjoy the freedom of owning my own personal paper books.
W- isn --- tha--- rea----- we--- [no signal]
I still have a landline telephone sitting right next to me :) If something changed so I spent more time out-and-about rather than sitting at my desk, I would consider a cell phone. But I enjoy the freedom of having different options, especially one that I can actually HEAR people with if they are also using a landline, I don't have to stand outside or sit in my car to get good reception, I don't have to spend $$$ to "upgrade" every year, I don't have to constantly re-learn for no good reason, I don't have to worry about security issues, and I could go on.
Now that is just silly. The choices are paying $$$$ to Comcast/Xfinity or a one time small payment for a pair of bunny ears, all for the same amount of nothing content. I ditched cable a LOOONG time ago, and I like having the freedom to choose an essentially free broadcast media, even if it breaks up when a plane flies over (and my neighbor's cell phone calls get cut off, herp derp).
Hardly relevant to the cash issue, and a weird thing for someone to feel superior about.
If you are lucky, not using cash may work well for you for your lifetime. But one day you might find your electronic accounts are unavailable. All kinds of possible and realistic reasons. When that day comes you may wish you had the freedom to use some other form of payment or receiving.
As for surveillances, I HAVE had seemingly ephemeral electronic details (not having anything to do with money, though) dug up and used against me in a witch hunt. Feel very lucky if you have never had this happen to you, and hope that it never will. For the time being, I enjoy the freedom to keep my life mostly private, and not be a target.
Why do you hate freedom!? :P
I suspect if you had your way, in the future there would be only One True resturaunt. Your grown kids will hate you because they only have the option to eat roadkill flavored Domino's pizza, they would gladly commit treason just for a good old fashion Taco Bell. :P
There is a word for people like you... "Consumertard".
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 10 2019, @11:49PM
Seconded, just about every point you made, thanks!
Originally I came to say, who cares about Dominos pizza? I had some once--it was the only place open near the motel I landed in late one night...and never again.
We just had front clip and hood repaired after a low speed accident on an older car, cost about US$2000. The friendly collision repair shop at the end of the street only takes cash or checks--and they did very nice work. Usefully cheaper than the official estimate from the fancy shop that also does estimates for the insurance company. (There was no requirement to use any particular repair shop--the insurance settlement was also a check).
I have a few moderately expensive bicycles (over $1000) and when I buy and sell, it's always cash in person. Same for random small things purchased (or sold) using Craigslist.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 11 2019, @02:43AM (4 children)
In Australia the current trend is for the bank to charge 1% or $1 per transactional for bills paid by credit card, and 40c minimum for over the counter up to 1.5% of the amount charged. Buying a $4 coffee on card? That's $4.40 please. Cash? $4.
I can only pay some bills by card. CC or bank transfer. It used to be that BPay was "free". Now they want more. One place is giving the option of paying by CC or BPay with both costing 1.4% of the bill total. No way to pay cash or any other method.
Is credit card payment really a better way?
(Score: 2) by ledow on Thursday July 11 2019, @08:14AM (3 children)
In the UK, it's normally to be charged extra to NOT use some electronic payments - Direct Debits often get you a discount on your utility bills (while also providing you with more guarantees than a credit card).
Credit cards are stupid for such things - don't buy coffee on credit. Buy it on a debit card. Zero fees. Visa and Mastercard both do debit cards that cost nothing to use and are given to you by any bank for free.
That's why you have a range of options.
I pay zero banking fees, zero card fees, and everything in my life goes into / comes out of my bank account
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Thursday July 11 2019, @11:56AM (2 children)
I have seen that start to happen in the United States as well. But if you just let the utilities dip into your account, how do you prevent a utility that normally withdraws $100 per month from suddenly withdrawing an unexpected $500 in a particular month? The possibility of an unexpectedly large debit is the one thing keeping my roommate from switching to direct debit for utilities. She says she'd even pay a $10 per utility per month surcharge to avoid the possibility of an unexpectedly large debit.
Last I checked, debit card processing does not charge a percentage of the total but still charges the merchant an automated clearinghouse (ACH) fee. In the United States, this fee has been on the order of 30 cents, which can be a significant fraction of transactions under $5.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Thursday July 11 2019, @12:19PM (1 child)
The Direct Debit guarantee... it puts the power in the users hands.
I can cancel any time, no matter the state of the account with the company in question. They'll have to chase me other ways. When I cancel a payment, I can get the last three months refunded.
Done it. Had a company once that was billing me for a phone that never arrived. They were unco-operative and my bank is usually just as bad. But the DD guarantee is golden. Two minutes after authenticating to the bank on the phone, they cancelled the DD, refuneded ALL the payments, and blocked any future ones, without interfering with any of my other bills. Literally, the money was back in my bank seconds later.
Then I got a phone call 2 minutes after hanging up - from the company in question. Cancelling the DD automatically notifies them but they are unable to do anything about it. Surprisingly at that point they listened much better! They threatened me with court and all sorts - never happened, as I literally never received the phone I was paying them for. But the bank... no questions asked... which payment? That one? There's been three debits on that since you added it, do you want those refunded? Okay, Sir, can I do anything else for you? They didn't even ask why.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Thursday July 11 2019, @01:40PM
FYI: The U.S. doesn't have the DD Guarantee, or anything like it. Sounds like a great idea.
You'll find this argument works differently for U.S. folks, as credit cards in the U.S. often have more protection for customers in the case of weird/unexpected/erroneous transactions than debit cards. For that reason, I exclusively use my credit card for all electronic purchases. I don't think I've ever used a debit card for a purchase in my life (though I have used direct debit transactions from my bank account when it helps to avoid fees and I trust the recipient).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 11 2019, @12:53PM
What do you do when EFTPOS is out?
https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/australian-consumers-hit-by-eftpos-outage/news-story/eaa3a5c6b5657c1cdb82be1418cf146c [news.com.au]
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday July 11 2019, @02:01PM (2 children)
I've heard a report that one manufacturer of bank ATMs puts serial number scanners in them. So your bank card can be correlated with serial numbers, and the store can associate your purchases with the same serial numbers. Once the data goes through the usual data brokers, that's more mined information (unreliable, admitted) about your buying habits.
It means I have a reliable record of what I've spent in the month, and I can use that for budgeting and planning.
Here in Montreal we can use credit cards to pay parking meters, and can even pay by app over a cell phone. There's a surcharge of seven cents per app payment. In nearby Westmount, however, a different app demands unacceptable permissions.
I can. I go to the relevant government office with a pile of money ...
But I've discovered there are some Quebec government benefits that are only paid out if you allow direct deposit to a bank account.
Sounds good. How old was your daughter when she got the card?
It reminds me of a time I did money-changing with my oldest way back when she was just learning about money and numbers. I had a lot of change, and she had some. She changed in her large-denomination coins for small-denomination ones, and then back and forth with intermediate denominations. It was a pleasant half hour, but at the end she understood conservation of value in the change-making process. Everything related to how many pennies it could all be changed for. I regret that Canada no longer uses pennies, so there's no longer a natural unit any more for a nickel to be worth five of.
I'm a mathematician, too, by the way.
I had to use a pen when I bought and sold a house. I had to sign documents in front of a notary, who explained the entire set of documents in detail in case I didn't understand what I was signing. Notaries here have to make sure of that -- it's their job.
I used encyclopedias long after I left school. Nowadays I use online and no longer have an encyclopedia. The encyclopedia was trashed after an aquarium leak destroyed it and we noticed we hadn't used it in ages.
I did too. I still have one. It was useful when the power was out and affected the nearby cell towers (no, it really shouldn't have affected them, but it did.) The landline service still had buildings full batteries to use during power outages.
It's not an exclusive or. I can use cash for some things, and card for others.
They are still useful here.
Which is why when I pay by card the grocery store is quite happy adding a few hundred to the bill and giving it to me in cash. That's a few hundred the burglar isn't going to get.
Also, one of the coffee shops here is delighted exchanging a few bills for my pocketful of change. It's change they don't have to get from the bank. The bank charges change-handling fees.
It's not the government that does that. It's the private data brokers.
In the Netherlands the central bank reads serial numbers of all bills coming in, and if one serial number occurs too often they start a counterfeit money investigation.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday July 11 2019, @02:03PM
Love the word-order flexibility of the English language!
(Score: 2) by ledow on Thursday July 11 2019, @03:46PM
Anti-counterfeiting sounds good, but also sounds in my interest. My next questions - sounds like you really need the ATMs not to be reading numbers, as well as the shops? And how do they know that the serial number was a single-purchase... you pulled it out of the ATM, it was redeposited into the pizza-company's account several days later... they have *no idea* where that note's been in the meantime, and no single user/recorder has that information available to them.
"Here in Montreal we can use credit cards to pay parking meters, and can even pay by app over a cell phone. There's a surcharge of seven cents per app payment. In nearby Westmount, however, a different app demands unacceptable permissions."
Same. That's the only reason my cash persists in the car. That's poor implementation, though, nothing to do with cashless. If I could just "doink" (like I pay for rail travel) my card, or stick it in the machine, or just swipe it, the same transaction would be seamless. It's a stupid execution, not a stupid idea. I would literally drive out of my way to use a car park that implements a simpler payment system, and that includes one that doesn't need cash. I mean.. they have my car registration and my credit card number... what more do you want to compensate for the occasional fraudulent transaction of a couple of quid to park a car that you can just ban from the entire city parking system if it doesn't pay?
"How old was your daughter when she got the card?"
11. It stays with her. It'll get her sweets and junk when she's out with friends. It'll buy her presents when she's in a shop and wants something. It gets topped up when she does chores. Grandparents put gifts on it. It'll even let her pay for the cinema on a day-out with friends. But it's real purpose is much more to prepare her for "you can always get a taxi home", or "you can buy food when you're hungry", or "you can buy a phone/SIM and make a call home in an emergency" or whatever, for in her teenage years. Plus, she lives between two countries... and a card is pretty universal (for both topping up for her grandparents, and for spending wherever she happens to be). And the school bully can't steal it from her, as it's then useless (and her parents can freeze it instantly from the app, limit transactions, and even stop her using it to draw out cash, or buy stuff online).
"I had to use a pen when I bought and sold a house. I had to sign documents in front of a notary, who explained the entire set of documents in detail in case I didn't understand what I was signing. Notaries here have to make sure of that -- it's their job."
My house was properly bought and sold. The divorce and house-purchase/sale were both done by the same online solicitors (all properly regulated, and they represent you in person in court as normal, but you manage and pay for the whole thing online and they notarise everything along the way to the satisfaction of the mortgage companies, etc. I literally just exchanged PDFs back and forth, paid them online, and then a decree nisi arrived in the post from the court, etc.). It's just a bit more 21st century. Small claims court is also almost entirely online nowadays.
"I did too. I still have one. It was useful when the power was out and affected the nearby cell towers (no, it really shouldn't have affected them, but it did.) The landline service still had buildings full batteries to use during power outages."
My workplace is a school. They literally don't bother with analogue phones any more. British Telecom have phased out ISDN lines and analogue are dead in business. We literally kept one for emergency calls, but the phones are all SIP and there are 100 staff with mobile phones in their pockets for emergencies. I don't have a phone at home at all. I'd be paying £16.99 line rental for that, in perpetuity, just to call emergency numbers that I've never had a problem using from a mobile phone or a myriad other ways (you can do it via Skype, text message, etc. nowadays!). Pretty much, if there's going to be a problem, it's going to come from the emergency line itself not working, not me being unable to find a method to contact them.
Interesting, though, to see where other countries are!