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posted by Fnord666 on Wednesday August 14 2019, @09:44AM   Printer-friendly
from the poison-pen dept.

With each news cycle, the false-information system grows more efficient.

Even on an internet bursting at the seams with conspiracy theories and hyperpartisanship, Saturday marked a new chapter in our post-truth, “choose your own reality” crisis story.

It began early Saturday morning, when news broke that the disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein had apparently hanged himself in a Manhattan jail. Mr. Epstein’s death, coming just one day after court documents from one of his alleged victims were unsealed, sparked immediate suspicion from journalists, politicians and the usual online fringes.

Within minutes, Trump appointees, Fox Business hosts and Twitter pundits revived a decades old conspiracy theory, linking the Clinton family to supposedly suspicious deaths. #ClintonBodyCount and #ClintonCrimeFamily trended on Twitter. Around the same time, an opposite hashtag — #TrumpBodyCount — emerged, focused on President Trump’s decades-old ties to Mr. Epstein. Each hashtag was accompanied by GIFs and memes picturing Mr. Epstein with the Clintons or with Mr. Trump to serve as a viral accusation of foul play.

The dueling hashtags and their attendant toxicity are a grim testament to our deeply poisoned information ecosystem — one that’s built for speed and designed to reward the most incendiary impulses of its worst actors. It has ushered in a parallel reality unrooted in fact and helped to push conspiratorial thinking into the cultural mainstream. And with each news cycle, the system grows more efficient, entrenching its opposing camps. The poison spreads.

It's time to end "trending" on Twitter

By now you've probably read enough about the disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein, his death in a Manhattan jail, and the attendant conspiracy theories that consumed social networks over the weekend. President Trump led the charge, retweeting a conspiracy theory that sought to implicate former President Bill Clinton.

While there is much blame to go around, Charlie Warzel finds that Twitter bears a special responsibility for what one researcher termed "the Disinformation World Cup." Warzel writes:

At the heart of the online fiasco is Twitter, which has come to largely program the political conversation and much of the press. Twitter is magnetic during huge breaking stories; news junkies flock to it for up-to-the-second information. But early on, there's often a vast discrepancy between the attention that is directed at the platform and the available information about the developing story. That gap is filled by speculation and, via its worst users, rumormongering and conspiracy theories.

On Saturday, Twitter's trending algorithms hoovered up the worst of this detritus, curating, ranking and then placing it in the trending module on the right side of its website. Despite being a highly arbitrary and mostly "worthless metric," trending topics on Twitter are often interpreted as a vague signal of the importance of a given subject.


Original Submission #1Original Submission #2

 
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @10:50AM (59 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @10:50AM (#880065)

    I am reminded of that picture of children in cages. It was used to blame Trump for his border policy. But the picture clearly had a date stamp clearly visible that was plainly within the Obama administration years. They were so brainwashed that they no only failed to investigate the source of the picture, but glossed right over the obvious date stamp that was right in front of them. Oh, and this was after Democrats stated that there was no crisis on the border. Were they blind, or were they getting kickbacks from the human trafficking and/or drugs?

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  • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @11:27AM (11 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @11:27AM (#880074)

    Oooh, please share a link to that video from a neutral news source (nothing on the left or the right).

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Arik on Wednesday August 14 2019, @11:38AM (10 children)

      by Arik (4543) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @11:38AM (#880080) Journal
      Not a video but a fairly informative recap: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-01/fact-check-did-obama-detain-90000-children-border
      --
      If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @11:54AM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @11:54AM (#880092)

        Nice story, but has nothing to do with the claim that a time stamp was purposely ignored and the assertion that there may have been kickbacks by human traffickers.

        Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

        • (Score: 1, Troll) by Arik on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:22PM (2 children)

          by Arik (4543) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:22PM (#880120) Journal
          Ah, the bit about the visible timestamp might have been a crank theory of the poster you were replying to, I don't know anything about that.

          But the rest of the story is very true, and easily verifiable, the initial twitterstorm was sparked by someone posting a pic that was actually from Obama's term and blaming Trump for it.

          --
          If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:36PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:36PM (#880126)

            Ah, the bit about the visible timestamp might have been a crank theory of the poster you were replying to, I don't know anything about that.

            I assumed it was more of the BS that poisons news feeds.

            I'm not doubting or denying that during Obama's administration that there was some family separations. Just the claims that the recent photos and videos were from Obama's time in office.

            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Arik on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:46PM

              by Arik (4543) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:46PM (#880131) Journal
              Not just some, lots of it.

              In some cases it's pretty well unavoidable. Especially when the 'parents' are suspected of not being who they seem, and knowing that in some cases the children turn out to be trafficked.

              If a case came up where a child came through the border with someone that had purchased him or her and they were NOT separated, there would be hell to pay.
              --
              If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
        • (Score: 4, Informative) by hemocyanin on Wednesday August 14 2019, @02:32PM

          by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @02:32PM (#880221) Journal

          If you aren't willing to use the links I'll give you an excerpt. The time stamp thing may be wrong (I don't know the exif data was preserved, but the article date was plain:

          After a laundry list of journalists and public figures angrily tweeted the photo - including CNN's Hadas Gold, NYT Mag's editor-in-chief Jake Silverstein, Obama speechwriter Jon Favreau and former LA mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, they deleted their tweets in shame when it emerged that the photo was taken in 2014, under Obama.

          Indeed - nobody thought to check the date on the attached article, published in June of 2014.

          https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-28/caged-migrant-children-photo-goes-viral-left-rages-trump-except-it-happened-under [zerohedge.com]

          The article is basically a list of famous politicos and journos (lol) making the mistake.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by hendrikboom on Wednesday August 14 2019, @01:30PM

        by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 14 2019, @01:30PM (#880151) Homepage Journal

        It does appear from reading that article that the majority of those children that Obama's administration detained were children that arrived without their parents. And the majority of those were eventually settled with relatives living in the USA.

        It looks as if the Obama administration was in the business of reuniting stray children with their families, rather than separating them.

        The exception was for children that were considered to be at risk from their parents. Those were separated. As happens domestically with American citizens when their American children are at risk. (I suppose there is another situation here when child-protection oversteps its mandate and misjudges risk, but that isn't what we're talking about now.)

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:05PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:05PM (#880249)

        Asks for a unbiased source, posts link to zerohedge.

        Lol.

        • (Score: 1) by Arik on Wednesday August 14 2019, @06:44PM (2 children)

          by Arik (4543) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @06:44PM (#880440) Journal
          What matters is not who published the list of references, but whether or not the references are accurate.
          --
          If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday August 14 2019, @09:19PM (1 child)

            by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 14 2019, @09:19PM (#880537) Journal

            The request for an unbiased source is a clear indication of doubt that the biased source isn't manipulating the result. So it does matter.

            I have no knowledge or opinion of zerohedge, so perhaps it *is* a reasonable source, but your response doesn't encourage that belief.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 16 2019, @10:50PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 16 2019, @10:50PM (#881330)

              People who require unbiased sources should not be on the Internet, or watching / listening to profit driven programming. It is possible to filter out bias. It is called discernment.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by bobthecimmerian on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:01PM (46 children)

    by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:01PM (#880097)

    Not all leftists are inconsistent. If I had understood the US border policy in 2015 the way I do today, I would have called for Obama's head on a platter too. And in fact, now I do.

    If you read further, the current US-Mexico border policy practices date back to the Clinton Administration. So let me be crystal clear - Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump can all go to the Hague for crimes against humanity over this.

    And in the 2020 election I'm only supporting candidates that will end the practice. Biden, for example, is clearly comfortable with what is happening or he would have raised hell about it when he was vice president. So if he wins the nomination, I'm voting third party. And if anyone starts chiming in that this is why Hillary lost - I hate Trump, but since Hillary (like Biden) supported this kind of thing, she didn't deserve to win either. I want a 1960s Great Society Democrat, not a choice between Republican and pro-choice, pro-gay Republican.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:12PM (24 children)

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:12PM (#880109) Homepage Journal

      It's a choice between children in cages, separating children from their families, or just letting whoever wants to waltz across the border. There's not a "good" answer, so which bad one would you prefer?

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 2) by zocalo on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:47PM (5 children)

        by zocalo (302) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @12:47PM (#880132)
        Provided they are well treated, given food, shelter, and some suitable (even if quite possibly false) reassurances, and do not feel threatened, I think most juveniles detained at the border and separated from their parents while they are "processed" through the system are going to stay put without much more than rudimentary fences, and certainly not actual cages. OK, maybe some teens might try and flee to go it alone, especially if they already know of friends/family in the US, in which case they could be transferred to a more secure facility, but for most they're already in the US, their standard of living will be considerably up, and as such they'll be more likely to just wait for their parent(s) to come and pick them up. Quite likely that'll be to be deported, but at least the optics are not the disaster we've seen over the last several years (and yes, that *does* include on Obama's watch).
        --
        UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday August 14 2019, @01:09PM (3 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday August 14 2019, @01:09PM (#880142) Homepage Journal

          Which is pretty much what happened to them before progtards threw a fit about children being separated from their parents. The exact same fit they'll throw ten or fifteen years after it's changed back.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:04PM

          by deimtee (3272) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:04PM (#880247) Journal

          It's a choice between children in cages, separating children from their families, or just letting whoever wants to waltz across the border.

          ...and separated from their parents...stay put...rudimentary fences...

          So you choose to separate children from their families and put them behind fences. You monster.

          --
          If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by hendrikboom on Wednesday August 14 2019, @01:38PM (7 children)

        by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 14 2019, @01:38PM (#880162) Homepage Journal

        It's a choice between children in cages, separating children from their families, or just letting whoever wants to waltz across the border. There's not a "good" answer, so which bad one would you prefer?

        None of these. Instead,

        (1) Don't separate children from their families when they cross the border. If they have to be detained, detain them together. (Exception: children at obvious risk of harm from their families)

        (2) If children arrive unaccompanied, try to find their families. (Apparently under Obama, most such children were eventually united with relatives already within the USA)

        (3) Play 4/4 music at the border rather than 3/4 waltz music.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 14 2019, @01:54PM (1 child)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 14 2019, @01:54PM (#880180) Journal

          I like 'Flight of the Valkyries'. You?

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday August 14 2019, @02:01PM

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday August 14 2019, @02:01PM (#880191) Homepage Journal

          Detaining them together is the "children in cages" that we have now and the progtards are throwing a fit over.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday August 14 2019, @02:02PM

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday August 14 2019, @02:02PM (#880193) Homepage Journal

          Scuse me, we're doing the separating them from their families thing now. Kids in cages with their parents is what we were doing before.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by curunir_wolf on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:01PM (2 children)

          by curunir_wolf (4772) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:01PM (#880497)

          (1) Don't separate children from their families when they cross the border. If they have to be detained, detain them together. (Exception: children at obvious risk of harm from their families)

          Separation happens only if officials find that the adult is falsely claiming to be the child’s parent, or is a threat to the child, or is put into criminal proceedings. Those rules have always been the same. The change under Trump was that ALL adults are being prosecuted for illegal entry. In the past, adults with children were allowed to walk. That policy is what encouraged so many illegals to bring children with them.

          When a migrant is prosecuted for illegal entry, he or she is taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals. In no circumstance anywhere in the U.S. do the marshals care for the children of people they take into custody. The child is taken into the custody of HHS, who cares for them at temporary shelters. Typically that only lasts a short time period (a few hours to a few days), after which the family is reunited and deported (the parent can ask that their children stay, and arrangements can be made for that, such as with a relative).

          The Flores Consent Decree from 1997 says that unaccompanied children can be held only 20 days. When the adult migrant claims asylum, they're not A ruling by the Ninth Circuit extended this 20-day limit to children who come as part of family units. So even if we want to hold a family unit together, we are forbidden from doing so.

          --
          I am a crackpot
          • (Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday August 14 2019, @09:09PM (1 child)

            by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Wednesday August 14 2019, @09:09PM (#880532) Journal
            Considering that it's legal for anyone claiming asylum to enter the US from any point of the border, and not just border entry points, the whole criminalizing of refugees and commingling them with immigrants in the public mind just shows how easy it is to make criminals out of anyone when you control the narrative and get to be the one applying the labels.
            --
            SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
            • (Score: 2) by curunir_wolf on Friday August 16 2019, @12:05AM

              by curunir_wolf (4772) on Friday August 16 2019, @12:05AM (#880781)

              Considering that it's legal for anyone claiming asylum to enter the US from any point of the border, and not just border entry points, the whole criminalizing of refugees and commingling them with immigrants in the public mind just shows how easy it is to make criminals out of anyone when you control the narrative and get to be the one applying the labels.

              No, sorry, that's not the way it works. You're incorrectly conflating a lot of things and saying they're all the same.

              You CAN claim asylum from any point of entry. Crossing the border somewhere else is against the law (the first time is a misdemeanor, subsequent crossings are felonies). It's true that after you cross, you can claim asylum. But that's where things get tricky, especially if you have brought a minor (yours, stolen, or paid for) along with you. You still get detained for processing, but an asylum request takes a LOT longer. It means any minors with you will need to be placed with family, or some foster situation.

              Speaking of which, this was a system developed under the corrupt Obama administration. The housing for unaccompanied or separated minors. You've got organizations like Southwest Key Programs - here is their funding revenue for finding homes for children [hhs.gov]. There are the "VOLAGS" (Volunteer Agencies) that are paid millions for resetting refugees. here is a chart of them and their funding [capitalresearch.org]. Catholic Charities is probably the largest organization paid with federal tax money for locating homes for children of illegal immigrants. They're one of the reasons you'll hear stories about immigrant moms looking for their children in Texas and discovering they've been sent somewhere on the East Coast.

              That rabbit hole goes pretty deep. The NYT even wrote an article about it [nytimes.com], even if nobody paid attention to it. The point is illegal immigration is big business, for the cartels that control the border from the Mexico side, to all the companies and rent-seekers sucking at the teat for their own self-interest. None of them give one whit about the immigrants themselves, and as long as they're lining their own pockets, they don't care about the damage it does to the country and its vulnerable citizens either.

              --
              I am a crackpot
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:08PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:08PM (#880255)

        Nice false dichotomy (trichotocomy?) there.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:57PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:57PM (#880283)

        It's a choice between children in cages, separating children from their families, or just letting whoever wants to waltz across the border. There's not a "good" answer, so which bad one would you prefer?

        Well, if those are my choices (hint: they aren't) then I choose to let them "waltz across the border". Seriously, what is so godawful wrong with letting people come to America to get a good job and a decent education for their kids? You are literally in a panic because people are jumping over walls, swimming across rivers, and walking across deserts to get into America. Actually, the time to panic is when people are jumping over walls, swimming across rivers, and walking across deserts to get out of the country. Seriously, get some perspective.

        • (Score: 2) by curunir_wolf on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:05PM (1 child)

          by curunir_wolf (4772) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:05PM (#880500)

          No border, no country.

          No country, no laws.

          What you're advocating here is that people from OTHER countries should be the ones deciding our immigration policies.

          --
          I am a crackpot
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:51PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:51PM (#880525)

            No border, no country.

            Bullshit!!! We have thousands of miles of unprotected border with Canada. No one in their right mind would argue that the sovereignty of either one is in jeopardy.

            What you're advocating here is that people from OTHER countries should be the ones deciding our immigration policies.

            No, what I am advocating is that you and your Trumpista buddies stop being anal retentive assholes. Look, our immigration policies are at least a few decades out of date. We need to bring immigration policy back to some semblance of reality.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:34PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:34PM (#880513)

          Seriously, get some perspective.

          Alright, let's see yours. You come home from work and find a bum from skid row helping himself to your kitchen. Do you A) call the police or B) call for a pizza?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:57PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:57PM (#880526)

            Seriously, get some perspective.

            Alright, let's see yours. You come home from work and find a bum from skid row helping himself to your kitchen. Do you A) call the police or B) call for a pizza?

            Analogy fail. The people coming across the border are not helping themselves to your kitchen; they are looking for jobs which pay better than what they can find back home. Why the hell do you not want people coming to America to contribute to our economy? This is after all, historically, what "made America great" in the first place.

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday August 16 2019, @02:19AM

              Fail there. Illegals often consume more in government subsidies than they contribute to the economy. I'm all about documenting up anyone who wants to pull their weight and letting them in but I don't want them showing disdain for our nation's laws by entering illegally or getting here and immediately sucking on the government tit.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by istartedi on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:59PM (1 child)

        by istartedi (123) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:59PM (#880285) Journal

        You're missing the option of actually prosecuting people who hire illegally, and having a jobs program that hires immigrants when there *really* are no citizens that can fill the job.

        You know, sane policy that could actually have a chance of working because you're enforcing against assets in fixed locations that have a strong incentive and ability to comply vs. enforcing against poor people distributed all over the country who have little or no incentive to comply.

        I know. Crazy, but I can dream, right?

        We now return to our regularly scheduled program of chasing rabbits all over the field while the horse leaves the barn.

        --
        Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @06:02PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @06:02PM (#880403)

          I can't believe you would post this anti-business tripe!

      • (Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Wednesday August 14 2019, @04:27PM

        by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @04:27PM (#880304)

        You're presenting a false dilemma and you have to know it. BP/ICE can go after violent criminals, rapists, and the other very dangerous less than 1% of the people crossing the border and ignore the others, and we'll be fine.

        We're spending 700 billion a year on military shit we don't need. Trump holds up the 1950s as America's greatest time but top marginal tax rates on the wealthiest Americans were 90% then and 40% today. And if nothing else, a fraction of the 8 million dollars per day ICE is using to jail thousands of immigrants could be used to house them more cheaply in hotels with catered meals.

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 14 2019, @01:52PM (9 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 14 2019, @01:52PM (#880176) Journal

      So let me be crystal clear - Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump can all go to the Hague for crimes against humanity over this.

      That gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling - almost kinda like "brotherhood". Someone realizes that all of them are equally guilty of the same crimes, and shoves partisanship aside to demand justice. Dayum!!

      But, before we get the pitchforks all sharpened up, let us keep in mind that we have to do SOMETHING with those kids. And, no, those "cages" aren't exactly concentration camps. I can't say that they are "pleasant", but the kids aren't being used for medical experiments. Not being worked to death. Not even kept on starvation diets. There is no crematoria behind the cages, from which the remains of children are dumped into a deep ravine. If a bunch of kids show up on my property, I can't just let them run wild, to fall into a well, or be run over by traffic or be mauled by one of the big cats known to frequent the area. Any of that would be criminally negligent. So, I'll have to round them up, and try to keep them safe, until the law arrives, right? Anyone under age six, seven, or maybe eight, anyway.

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:50PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @03:50PM (#880279)

        Ugh, you all managed to let Runaway get away with shoving the overton window into "concentration camp" territory while feeling all wsrm and fuzzy.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by bobthecimmerian on Wednesday August 14 2019, @04:39PM (7 children)

        by bobthecimmerian (6834) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @04:39PM (#880310)

        We can put those kids with their parents, and let them go. We are the richest country in history. The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants are peaceful and for those that are not, statistically the violent crime rates are lower than for native citizens. (Nobody is demanding we deport our white trash for safety reasons, are they?) The government is spending far more money detaining these people in giant prisons than it would cost to give them regular housing and food: $200/person/day, 8 million per day total.

        And it is a fucking concentration camp. Per Wikipedia: Use of the word "concentration" came from the idea of confining people in one place because they belong to a group that is considered undesirable in some way, and it was coined in 1897. The Nazis had Jews in concentration camps for six years, from 1933 to 1939, before they started forcing them to do slave labor and butchering them. US confinement of Japanese citizens during WW2 was concentration camps. Conditions in some of the US facilities for housing Native American tribes through our history qualify as concentration camps too. Inside our own borders people that were not convicted of violent crimes or rape are getting treated worse than our murderers. Every member of Congress that is not fighting this, every White House staff member, and a good chunk of the BP and ICE employees deserve to be hanged for what they're doing. If these kids come out of the camps too traumatized to live a normal life, or more likely to become violent criminals, it will be precisely because we made them that way. This is all the evidence the world needs that the US is the same savage shithole that enslaved blacks and butchered Native Americans 200 years ago.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 15 2019, @01:31PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 15 2019, @01:31PM (#880559)

          Latin America is the largest part of the Americas (vs. Euro-North America), and their countries are nominally democracies. What should make us think that these people who created these post-independence shitholes aren't going to do the same to the USA?

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 15 2019, @03:20PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 15 2019, @03:20PM (#880619)

            Latin America is the largest part of the Americas (vs. Euro-North America), and their countries are nominally democracies. What should make us think that these people who created these post-independence shitholes aren't going to do the same to the USA?

            You are suffering from Head-Up-Ass Syndrome. Many of us have parents/grandparents who came from countries which were governed far worse. When my paternal grandfather left Germany, the Kaiser was still ruling the country. When my maternal grandparents left, Hitler was in power. I can assure you that I have no desire to turn the USA into one of those abominations; and my grandparents and parents would never have stood for that either. In fact, most who come to the USA do so precisely because they want to get away from such "shitholes". Why should people from Latin America be treated any different?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 15 2019, @06:18PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 15 2019, @06:18PM (#880685)

            They're post-independence shitholes because of US intervention. Read up on the United Fruit Company, the School of the Americas, and CIA-backed coupes all throughout Central and South America. They were making progress, but that progress came with socialism and the oligarchy in the US couldn't stand for it, so we tore them to bits.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 15 2019, @01:33PM (3 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 15 2019, @01:33PM (#880563) Journal

          Bob, you silly Cimmerian - I've already explained that often times, THE KIDS HAVE NO PARENTS AROUND!!!! So, how you gonna "put them with their parents" if there are no parents around?

          As for your definition of concentration camps, we did it before the Germans did, but not before the Turks did it. We did, indeed, put the Native Americans into concentration camps. Kids at the border today are NOT in concentration camps, unless you really strain your imagination. Go back, and really take a hard look at what happened to the people the Turks put into concentration camps. Few survived for very long at all. The US' concentration camps had a much better survival rate than the Turk's or the Germans - but it still wasn't great.

          To date, there is no record of one single person at the border being executed, whether the execution be ordered by the government, or the execution was just for the amusement of one or more guards. No rapes, no mutilations, only a very few accidental deaths and injuries. If you would like to be regarded as something more than a silly Cimmerian, please stop with the nonsense soundbytes.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 15 2019, @03:29PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 15 2019, @03:29PM (#880622)

            No rapes[....]

            You sure about that? [nytimes.com]

            [...]only a very few accidental deaths and injuries.

            Yeah, well, about that some are suggesting that those deaths were largely preventable. [aclu.org]

            If you would like to be regarded as something more than a silly Cimmerian, please stop with the nonsense soundbytes.

            Physician, heal thyself!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 19 2019, @12:08AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 19 2019, @12:08AM (#881898)

            These camps have less comfortable sleeping conditions, poorer hygiene, less room to exercise, and poorer quality food than prisons. And for example the Nazis had Jews in concentration camps for years before they started the forced labor and slaughter. These are very much concentration camps. And there is zero justification, ever, for having kids in poorer conditions than convicted murderers.

            And a great number of the children in these camps were separated from their parents. Not all, but many. It may be impractical to reunite them now because we deliberately removed all means of linking children to parents inside or outside the borders.

            To repeat some public statistics: there are half a million Caucasian illegal immigrants in the US, but ICE imprisons almost none of them and is 23 times as likely to deport and illegal Latino immigrant as an illegal Caucasian one. This was never about illegal immigrants, it has been about race the whole time.

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday August 19 2019, @02:47AM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 19 2019, @02:47AM (#881934) Journal

              And for example the Nazis had Jews in concentration camps for years before they started the forced labor and slaughter.

              Citations needed. Plural "citations" used intentionally. Among other things that convince me that you are wrong, Auschwitz initially buried it's victims in deep pits. In the latter part of 1942, they began digging up those same victims, to incinerate them. The intention, from the start, was to remove the Jew from European history. Eliminate the Jews, eliminate their bodies, eliminate all mention of them in the history books - the ultimate genocide. Let's remember that the German's savagery wasn't aimed only at the Jews, but the worst savagery was reserved for the Jews. Shall we look first at the invasion of Poland? The killings were still disorganized, and hit or miss in 1940, but at Auschwitz, the Jews went in, but the Jews didn't come out. The Poles had somewhat better luck than the Jews, but many Poles didn't even make it through "orientation".

              http://lekcja.auschwitz.org/en_17_deportacje/ [auschwitz.org]

              So - for how many years are you claiming that Nazis had Jews in concentration camps, before the slaughter began?

              Giving you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you have confused the ghettos with concentration camps. The ghettos, all across Europe, are where the Jews "concentrated" themselves, in an attempt to counter the various pogroms. Pogroms were almost routine, before Germany interfered. Droughts were blamed on the Jews, and the populace punished the Jews. Bank failures were blamed on the Jews, crop failures, anything and everything.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ghettos_in_Europe [wikipedia.org]

              What we have at the border with Mexico today would have to become permanent, before you could even compare it with the ghettos. No way in hell can you compare the US/Mexico border with concentration camps. Only complete and utter ignorance will allow any person to make such a comparison.

              Read some history. I read this history while still a teenager, sitting in the reference sections of libraries where kids were "officially" not allowed. No easy, simple, internet searches, but searching through musty old books. You've got it easy, click the link and get started.

    • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Wednesday August 14 2019, @02:34PM (6 children)

      by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @02:34PM (#880223) Journal

      The reason I'm no longer a Democrat is because Democrats NEVER care when their own do evil. Honestly, I don't think Democrats care about policies, they only care WHO does the policies. So when GWB was opening up wars in the ME, Democrats came unglued. When Obama did it, they were having brunch.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @04:01PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @04:01PM (#880286)

        So when GWB was opening up wars in the ME, Democrats came unglued. When Obama did it, they were having brunch.

        What new wars were begun during the Obama administration? Name one. Be specific.

        • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Wednesday August 14 2019, @07:51PM

          by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @07:51PM (#880491) Journal

          Libya

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:36PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:36PM (#880516)

          Syria

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @04:09PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @04:09PM (#880293)

        Y'know I keep seeing this sentiment from all spectrums. I'm starting to think it is pure MSM and political manipulation to push the emotional buttons. Personally I only heard about a lot of Obama's negative shit much later, though to argue against your point I was pissed about a lot of things he did. Failure to get better healthcare reform, increased droning, continued war mongering.

        We really need to reform our society,

        • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:02PM (1 child)

          by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:02PM (#880498) Journal

          Obama:

          • Played the same games with PlanB that GWB did, even letting Sebelius with her Masters in admin overrule the FDA's harvard educated MD.
          • Took the number of countries we were bombing from 2 to 7. Literally ran out of bombs in 2015 or 16.
          • Raised the number of troops in Afghanistan to 3x GWB's max.
          • Tried to extend the war in Iraq, was rebuffed by the Iraqi government over military immunity, and so declared himself a peacemaker.
          • Catfood commission and the attempt to gut SS. Thankfully, the GOP wouldn't play.
          • Extended the horrific due process free detention program GWB established (Gitmo), to include due process free execution.
          • Never tried closing Gitmo, unless you mean shuttering the facility and moving the _practice_ to a the Thomson Federal Supermax prison.
          • Opposed a ban on cluster munitions.
          • The last meltdown was 40x the S&L crisis in which something like 1000 banksters got prosecuted. Obama prosecuted none or next to none.
          • He wasn't called the deporter in chief for nothing.
          • His crowning achievement was giving us a less liberal version of Nixon's HC plan.
          • Vastly increased level of secrecy in the categorization of government documents.
          • Made extensive use of the espionage to persecute whistleblowers.

          Anyone who thinks that Obama was better than Trump on POLICES (yeah, he was better about twitter), was OUT TO FUCKING BRUNCH. As is the Democrat usual.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Oakenshield on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:32PM

            by Oakenshield (4900) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:32PM (#880512)

            You forgot opposed wiretapping abuses as a Senator and signed a law retroactively making it legal.

    • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday August 14 2019, @04:42PM (3 children)

      by Phoenix666 (552) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @04:42PM (#880316) Journal

      So let me be crystal clear - Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump can all go to the Hague for crimes against humanity over this.

      "Go to the Hague for crimes against humanity" for jailing people who crossed your border illegally? That is a weird thing to say. A country has the right to defend its borders, or it's just not a country. By definition. If you have borders, you control who crosses them, or you're just a loose collection of yahoos wandering through a vague area and have no right to demand you or I pay it taxes or do any other thing you tell us to do.

      The people in question in cages are the ones who chose to violate those borders. Nobody made them. They chose to do that. So, really, historically, they're lucky the country in question didn't shoot them on sight. Because when people you don't want to enter your space force their way in, it's called an invasion.

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @06:51PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @06:51PM (#880449)

        A country has the right to defend its borders, or it's just not a country. By definition.

        You do realize that right now---this very moment---we have thousands of miles of open border with Canada, right? Does that mean we are not a country? What about Canada? Are they not a country?

        Because when people you don't want to enter your space force their way in, it's called an invasion.

        Nice use of emotive language there. Trump and the alt-right would be proud, I'm sure.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:51PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 14 2019, @08:51PM (#880523)

          we have thousands of miles of open border with Canada

          How is the border with Canada open? There are sensors deployed and people patrolling it. When I crossed the border in a place remote enough to not have a crossing station, the border patrol was there in 5 minutes.

      • (Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday August 14 2019, @07:28PM

        by Arik (4543) on Wednesday August 14 2019, @07:28PM (#880479) Journal
        ""Go to the Hague for crimes against humanity" for jailing people who crossed your border illegally? That is a weird thing to say."

        It truly is. Particularly considering that all the people he mentioned could fairly be charged - just not on the issue that commenter would want, apparently.

        It's almost like this is a fake issue, being raised for purely political purposes.

        "Because when people you don't want to enter your space force their way in, it's called an invasion."

        I'm not aware of anyone stupid enough to try to shoot their way in though; you really are posting hyperbole.

        (Most of) the would-be immigrants haven't done anything wrong, they were told they could escape what was often some pretty miserable conditions if they would come here so they came here. Congress for decades has refused to fix our immigration system, and congresscritters and others have sent very questionable messages, and this is the result. Demonizing the poor people stuck at the border is just a distraction from the real problems, in Washington.
        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?