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posted by janrinok on Sunday August 18 2019, @08:09AM   Printer-friendly
from the counting-on-change dept.

Submitted via IRC for SoyCow1984

Judge finds several serious flaws with Georgia's current election technology.

Election security advocates scored a major victory on Thursday as a federal judge issued a 153-page ruling ordering Georgia officials to stop using its outdated electronic voting machines by the end of the year. The judge accepted the state's argument that it would be too disruptive to switch to paper ballots for municipal elections being held in November 2019. But she refused to extend that logic into 2020, concluding that the state had plenty of time to phase out its outdated touchscreen machines before then.

The state of Georgia was already planning to phase out its ancient touchscreen electronic voting machines in favor of a new system based on ballot-marking machines. Georgia hopes to have the new machines in place in time for a presidential primary election in March 2020. In principle, that switch should address many of the critics' concerns.

The danger, security advocates said, was that the schedule could slip and Georgia could then fall back on its old, insecure electronic machines in the March primary and possibly in the November 2020 general election as well. The new ruling by Judge Amy Totenberg slams the door shut on that possibility. If Georgia isn't able to switch to its new high-tech system, it will be required to fall back on a low-tech system of paper ballots rather than continue using the insecure and buggy machines it has used for well over a decade.

Alex Halderman, a University of Michigan computer scientist who served as the plaintiffs' star witness in the case, hailed the judge's ruling.

"The court's ruling recognizes that Georgia's voting machines are so insecure, they're unconstitutional," Halderman said in an email to Ars. "That's a huge win for election security that will reverberate across other states that have equally vulnerable systems."

Source: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/08/judge-bans-insecure-touchscreen-voting-machines-from-georgia-after-2019/

[Update 20190818_234547 UTC: changed title from "Judge Orders Georgia to Switch to Paper Ballots for 2020 Elections" to be "Judge Bans Insecure Touchscreen Voting Machines from Georgia after 2019". Paper ballots are required only if they fail to implement a new high-tech system in time. --martyb]


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  • (Score: 2, Informative) by fustakrakich on Sunday August 18 2019, @03:15PM (48 children)

    by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday August 18 2019, @03:15PM (#881762) Journal

    Now, if only there were someone to actually vote FOR.

    You can petition for anybody you want. Get enough signatures, and that person will be on the ballot.

    --
    La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 18 2019, @04:10PM (47 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 18 2019, @04:10PM (#881780)

    That simple, huh?
    Moron.

    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday August 18 2019, @05:04PM (46 children)

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday August 18 2019, @05:04PM (#881806) Journal

      Yup, it is. You have no excuse

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday August 18 2019, @07:38PM (45 children)

        by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Sunday August 18 2019, @07:38PM (#881851) Journal

        Hmm... "that simple, eh"?

        While what you say is theoretically true, Democrats and Republicans have conspired to produce a lot of labyrinthine and excessive requirements in many states [fairvote.org], making ballot access requirements quite difficult to satisfy.

        It's true that in some states and/or for some offices, it isn't difficult. But in other cases it can be next to impossible to get an independent candidate on a ballot. And even if you get the requisite number of signatures, be aware that there are plenty of volunteers in the two major parties who will comb through those in an attempt to invalidate the petitions by any means necessary. (I found this out back in 2004 when a person who was up to that point a good friend of mine sent out an "emergency email" to all friends and colleagues to try to deny a third-party candidate access to the ballot, who clearly had accumulated plenty of signatures. There was apparently a whole organized machine dedicated to trying to keep people off the ballot.)

        In my opinion, no party should be exempt from any ballot access requirements. If the Democrats and Republicans want to make huge barriers to get ballot access for other candidates, they should have to waste the time and effort to satisfy them too for every candidate in every election. Which, I think, would mean that they would generally relax the requirements quite a bit from what they are now most places.

        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday August 18 2019, @11:36PM (3 children)

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday August 18 2019, @11:36PM (#881892)

          It does seem weird to non-Americans that a country of 320 million people or so has a grand total of two political parties, and has never had more.

          Some Soylentils seem to think that is the voter's fault, but I am pretty sure it's built into your system.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 18 2019, @11:58PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 18 2019, @11:58PM (#881896)

            Wasn't that the situation in your New Zealand until you moved from a first past the post elections process to mixed-member proportional?
            Why did the established parties agree to that?

            • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday August 19 2019, @12:50AM (1 child)

              by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Monday August 19 2019, @12:50AM (#881907)

              The problem in New Zealand was that the unfairness was so obvious that the two main parties could not keep pretending they were "doing something" and had to actually do something to change the system.

              The Social Credit Party got 21% in 1981 and still managed to win only 2 seats.

              I still read the occasional opinion piece about how MMP has failed and we should go back to first past the post, but nobody is buying that.

              It does help that money has less influence on elections here than in the US, as the wealthy are the ones who seem to want to go back.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 19 2019, @12:21PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 19 2019, @12:21PM (#882074)

                So, to reiterate, the changes came about because at least 21% of voters chose a third party? I'm not sure which side you're arguing, but it seems the onus is on the voters first.

                (I'm not going to argue "fault", because that's unproductive. But it sure sounds like the voters can effect such a change)

        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday August 18 2019, @11:44PM (40 children)

          by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday August 18 2019, @11:44PM (#881894) Journal

          Sorry, you just need more people to sign the petition. Don't let anybody convince you that you don't have the numbers to completely overwhelm the machine. The non-voters alone are a big enough block to vote out the republicans and the democrats. Just turning your backs will do the job.

          --
          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
          • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday August 19 2019, @12:59AM (39 children)

            by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Monday August 19 2019, @12:59AM (#881910)

            Don't let anybody convince you that you don't have the numbers to completely overwhelm the machine.

            Makes me wonder why that has never happened, even once, in the whole history of the US.

            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday August 19 2019, @04:19AM (38 children)

              by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday August 19 2019, @04:19AM (#881969) Journal

              You have to ask the people who make the choice.

              --
              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
              • (Score: 3, Touché) by deimtee on Monday August 19 2019, @10:45AM (1 child)

                by deimtee (3272) on Monday August 19 2019, @10:45AM (#882056) Journal

                You have to ask the people who count the ballots.

                --
                If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday August 19 2019, @02:30PM

                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday August 19 2019, @02:30PM (#882131) Journal

                  That too, always watch closely. With paper ballots it will be relatively easy.

                  --
                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
              • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday August 19 2019, @09:18PM (35 children)

                by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Monday August 19 2019, @09:18PM (#882331)

                The DNC and the GOP then?

                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday August 20 2019, @01:00AM (34 children)

                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @01:00AM (#882406) Journal

                  The people that vote for them. The ones that ignore all the possibilities and pretend alternatives don't exist, to cynically absolve themselves of responsibility.

                  --
                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                  • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 20 2019, @01:21AM (33 children)

                    by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @01:21AM (#882415)

                    I know we've had this discussion before, but you've never explained to me what makes the average American voter different to the average Aussie, or German, or Scot.

                    You guys have two parties, but everyone else gets the choice of 5, or 6 or 8 parties even.

                    I'm not buying the argument that it's because the voters are stupider in America. I think it is systemic.

                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday August 20 2019, @02:51AM (29 children)

                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @02:51AM (#882457) Journal

                      I never said they are stupider. It's not an issue of intelligence. They just choose to vote for two parties. They choose to believe they have no other options. It is a personal choice.

                      --
                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                      • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 20 2019, @03:13AM (28 children)

                        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @03:13AM (#882459)

                        Really?

                        I did a quick search and there seem to be about 158 million registered voters in the US.

                        Are you seriously asserting that 158 million people agree that there should only be two political parties in the US?

                        I'm not buying that, unless you have some evidence?

                        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday August 20 2019, @04:07AM (27 children)

                          by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @04:07AM (#882475) Journal

                          I'm not buying that...

                          Put your doubts aside, and just look at the results [wikipedia.org]. In 2016 94.3% voted republican/democrat. On the average over 90% of those running in congress are reelected. Turnout is low, but those who do speak up at election time, where it counts, speak quite clearly.

                          --
                          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                          • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 20 2019, @08:00PM (26 children)

                            by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @08:00PM (#882757)

                            Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

                            I am aware that your minor parties have a tiny share of the vote, but what I am interested in is why.
                            Deimtree gives a quite informative post about why he thinks that is, and it seems to have several reasons but boils down to the fact theat your two parties own the process.

                            First past the post is not the reason for it, or rather first past the post is just one of the many ways in which your election system has been captured and co-opted by the Republicans and the Democrats for their own benefit.

                            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday August 20 2019, @08:17PM (25 children)

                              by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @08:17PM (#882763) Journal

                              I am interested in is why.

                              Me too, but you have to ask the voters, not paid pundits.

                              your two parties own the process.

                              It is given to them at election time. And it's not really "two" parties in opposition. It is offense/defense of one team that indeed does want to own the process. But they can't take it by force. All the money in the world is worthless without the votes to put them into office.

                              The confirmed facts are quite simply that 94.3% of the people that voted are convinced that a third party is a wasted voted. And I say exactly the opposite is true. Continuing to voting for republican/democrat in light of their history is the ultimate in cynicism and surrender. The voters have to take their own initiative.

                              --
                              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                              • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 20 2019, @10:24PM (24 children)

                                by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @10:24PM (#882825)

                                It is given to them at election time.

                                They've taken it long before the voting starts.

                                The voters have to take their own initiative.

                                Sounds like a good idea. How would that happen?

                                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday August 20 2019, @11:03PM (23 children)

                                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @11:03PM (#882840) Journal

                                  How would that happen?

                                  That would be up to them, wouldn't it?

                                  --
                                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                  • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 20 2019, @11:13PM (22 children)

                                    by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @11:13PM (#882845)

                                    That would be up to them, wouldn't it?

                                    Not really, no.

                                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday August 20 2019, @11:40PM (21 children)

                                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @11:40PM (#882859) Journal

                                      How could it not be? You really think this is a hostage situation? That's crazy. People are in a prison they built themselves, and the door isn't even locked, from the outside anyway.

                                      --
                                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                      • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday August 21 2019, @12:26AM (20 children)

                                        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Wednesday August 21 2019, @12:26AM (#882874)

                                        People are in a prison they built themselves...

                                        What is wrong with Americans that they let themselves be captured in this unlocked prison that no other democracy has made? You claim the voters could change the system but they don't, but in no other democracy are the voters locked into two unrepresentative parties like you are.

                                        If the voters in the US really do have that power, you should explain why they won't use it.

                                        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday August 21 2019, @03:18PM (19 children)

                                          by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday August 21 2019, @03:18PM (#883165) Journal

                                          What am I? A mind reader? Don't be silly. It's not for me to explain what motivates other people.

                                          I'm sorry, but you have to ask them, not me. I can only say they are acting irrationally, only partially explained by regular old tribalism and biology itself. You can google the rest.

                                          --
                                          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                          • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday August 21 2019, @07:54PM (18 children)

                                            by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Wednesday August 21 2019, @07:54PM (#883287)

                                            Well then, once again we come back to asking whether Americans are stupid or something?

                                            Germans, Australians, the British and everyone else who lives in a democracy of whatever stripe has no problem getting a bit of competition in their electoral system, but Americans can't (or won't)?

                                            Please note, I'm not claiming you lot are dumber than we are, I'm claiming your system is rigged in some fashion.

                                            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday August 22 2019, @01:52AM (17 children)

                                              by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday August 22 2019, @01:52AM (#883410) Journal

                                              Well then, once again we come back to asking whether Americans are stupid or something?

                                              No, why? Just ask them why they insist on voting for only republicans and democrats.

                                              The system is rigged by the voters themselves. It is the denial that must be addressed. Everything else is bullshit.

                                              Don't know if the Brits should be brought into this. Look at what they got right now... UGH!

                                              And multiple parties aren't subduing this fascist right wing nationalism thing going on all over either. Where is the supposed advantage?

                                              --
                                              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                              • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday August 22 2019, @02:25AM (16 children)

                                                by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday August 22 2019, @02:25AM (#883432)

                                                The system is rigged by the voters themselves.

                                                You keep asserting that. Have you never heard of gerrymandering? It is what the Republicans in Wisconsin use to keep their majority in the state senate, despite winning fewer votes.
                                                There's a bit in there that explains it. [wikipedia.org]

                                                Wisconsin’s legislative districts came under wide scrutiny as an example of gerrymandering due to the fact that while Republicans won a fairly wide majority in the Wisconsin State Assembly, the Democrats garnered nearly 9 percent more of the overall statewide vote. [16] [17] In addition, Wisconsin was notable for being the only state in the 2018 elections where Republicans won a majority of the state’s seats in the U.S. House while Democrats won a majority of the overall votes.

                                                So if I went to Wisconsin and asked a voter who they wanted to represent them, a majority of them would say Democrat (presumably) but they would actually be more likely to get a Republican.

                                                That does not sound like the voters rigging the system to me, that sounds like the Republicans (in that case) rigging the system to make sure they win.

                                                Do you have any examples you can show me to back up your assertion?

                                                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday August 22 2019, @02:13PM (15 children)

                                                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday August 22 2019, @02:13PM (#883620) Journal

                                                  Gerrymandering only works because people play along. Nobody is being forced to vote in predictable patterns. The only weakness in the entire system is the voter. Only the voters have the power to correct it. Or, they can have a dictatorship do it for them, and hope for the best, but we already know how that will turn out.

                                                  If you want a fix, there simply is no other place to turn than the people themselves. We are on our own.

                                                  --
                                                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                                  • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday August 22 2019, @08:11PM (14 children)

                                                    by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday August 22 2019, @08:11PM (#883774)

                                                    No then. Ok.

                                                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday August 23 2019, @12:55AM (13 children)

                                                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday August 23 2019, @12:55AM (#883875) Journal

                                                      My "assertions" are spelled out in the voting results. You choose to see some thing that is not there, and ignore the elephant that is. Yours is the perfect example of denial I speak of and engage in the same old tiresome blame passing game.. You have learned to be helpless. *It's always somebody elses' fault*.

                                                      So far it is your assertions that are based purely on institutional propaganda. And it seems your don't even believe in free will.

                                                      --
                                                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                                      • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Friday August 23 2019, @02:25AM (12 children)

                                                        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Friday August 23 2019, @02:25AM (#883893)

                                                        You have learned to be helpless. *It's always somebody elses' fault*.

                                                        So far it is your assertions that are based purely on institutional propaganda. And it seems your don't even believe in free will.

                                                        Not me mate. The next time I vote I will have the choice of something like 20 candidates, and about 14 different parties to vote for.

                                                        At a guess 6 of those parties will get seats in parliament and we will wind up with some sort of coalition government again.

                                                        I won't have to vote either Democrat or Republican, because I live in a democracy.

                                                        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday August 23 2019, @02:50AM (11 children)

                                                          by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday August 23 2019, @02:50AM (#883896) Journal

                                                          The Americans have other choices also. There is nothing to compel them to vote for democrat or republican either. They do it by personal choice, all while denying they have one, for self absolution.

                                                          we will wind up with some sort of coalition government again.

                                                          :-) And I wish you nothing but the best of luck with that

                                                          --
                                                          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                                          • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday August 25 2019, @01:42AM (10 children)

                                                            by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday August 25 2019, @01:42AM (#885019)

                                                            There is nothing to compel them to vote for democrat or republican either. They do it by personal choice, all while denying they have one, for self absolution.

                                                            Yes, but I've been asking why?

                                                            We have had coalition governments for 15 years or so now, mostly. They're a great idea.

                                                            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday August 25 2019, @03:20AM (9 children)

                                                              by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday August 25 2019, @03:20AM (#885054) Journal

                                                              Yes, but I've been asking why?

                                                              Yes, and I am curious why you would ask me. All I know is that this is what they choose, and that any claim of lack of choice is false.

                                                              --
                                                              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                                              • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday August 25 2019, @11:38PM (8 children)

                                                                by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday August 25 2019, @11:38PM (#885422)

                                                                So the only voters in the world who voluntarily choose to only vote for two parties are the Americans, and that's because they chose that system?

                                                                There are no other reasons but a choice all 158 million voters make each time they go into the voting booth? That is laughable.

                                                                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday August 25 2019, @11:43PM (7 children)

                                                                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday August 25 2019, @11:43PM (#885424) Journal

                                                                  Sorry, after throwing out the totally implausible bullshit, you have to go what with what's left. The choice is voluntary, regardless the motivation.

                                                                  --
                                                                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                                                  • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday August 25 2019, @11:52PM (6 children)

                                                                    by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Sunday August 25 2019, @11:52PM (#885427)

                                                                    So there's no change your two political parties have control of your electoral system then?

                                                                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Sunday August 25 2019, @11:57PM (5 children)

                                                                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Sunday August 25 2019, @11:57PM (#885428) Journal

                                                                      They only have what is given to them, by the voters.

                                                                      --
                                                                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                                                      • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday August 26 2019, @12:10AM (4 children)

                                                                        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Monday August 26 2019, @12:10AM (#885438)

                                                                        Well, don't tell any of the 8 or so parties in my country, as they will be trying to get something set up just like you guys have.

                                                                        The last thing politicians want is competition, and I bet my lot would love to only have one opponent.

                                                                        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday August 26 2019, @12:53AM (3 children)

                                                                          by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday August 26 2019, @12:53AM (#885452) Journal

                                                                          Just gotta make the sale... convince enough people, and they will eat out of your hands.

                                                                          --
                                                                          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                                                          • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday August 26 2019, @01:50AM (2 children)

                                                                            by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Monday August 26 2019, @01:50AM (#885467)

                                                                            We tried it actually, and it wound up with (nearly) one man rule which most of us didn't like, so we got our politicians to change our system to make that much harder.

                                                                            It also had the benefit of making our elections representative of how people vote.

                                                                            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday August 26 2019, @05:19PM (1 child)

                                                                              by fustakrakich (6150) on Monday August 26 2019, @05:19PM (#885714) Journal

                                                                              You have to be patient. Conditioning takes a long time. The US had multiple parties at one time, and now there is one. Don't ask what happened. All I can tell you is that snake oil is still a best seller.

                                                                              I am curious as to name of your utopia.

                                                                              --
                                                                              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                                                                              • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 27 2019, @12:51AM

                                                                                by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Tuesday August 27 2019, @12:51AM (#885877)

                                                                                The US had multiple parties at one time, and now there is one.

                                                                                I am pretty sure that the US has never had more than two parties at the same time. This graph shows a fair bit of "other" but no third party. [wikipedia.org]

                                                                                Whether the two you have are really just one is probably a matter of opinion, but as far as the people who really run your country are concerned sending two cheques is not that much more effort.

                                                                                The utopia I live is hardly a utopia*, but voters do have a fair amount of control over our governments, after many years of what we called "the tyranny of the executive" where the cabinet ruled the country without much recourse to parliament.

                                                                                We have stopped that from happening again by moving to a proportional voting system, which has resulted in coalition governments and they are really good for voters because no one party gets all their own way.

                                                                                * New Zealand.

                                                                                The last time I saw the Prime Minister, she was doing her shopping at the supermarket. I said "Gidday Jacinda" and she smiled and said "Gidday, how's it going"?

                                                                                This is considered normal. So normal that her security guys didn't even turn around to look at me.

                    • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Tuesday August 20 2019, @03:19AM (2 children)

                      by deimtee (3272) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @03:19AM (#882462) Journal

                      It's the result of first past the post voting and strategic voters.

                      eg. You have 'party-you-don't-like-much'(DLM), 'party-you-really-hate'(YRH) and 'party-you-like' (PYL).
                      The DLM and the YRH are both polling at about 45%. The PYL and other parties between them have about 10% of the vote.

                      Do you vote for PYL? It won't make any difference, and might mean that YRH win. So of the two leading parties, you vote for the lesser evil.

                      There is also an on-going campaign by DLM and YRH to convince voters that if you vote for someone who has no chance of winning then you have "thrown your vote away". That sounds vaguely immoral, like disrespecting democracy, and people who will make the effort to vote respond to that sort of moral pressure.

                      --
                      If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
                      • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 20 2019, @03:36AM (1 child)

                        by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @03:36AM (#882466)

                        It is not first past the post.

                        If it were, then the UK would only have two parties in their parliament, instead of the 8 parties they actually have.

                        It is true however that first past the post does not help minor parties.

                        I actually don't know why the US has never had more than two parties, apart from the fact that the incumbents control the electoral system and don't like competition.

                        I would like to know why third parties in the US are so irrelevant, but none of the answers I have seen yet are particularly convincing.

                        • (Score: 3, Informative) by deimtee on Tuesday August 20 2019, @04:15AM

                          by deimtee (3272) on Tuesday August 20 2019, @04:15AM (#882479) Journal

                          It is not a simple single cause. It is a self-reinforcing matrix, no one part of it is enough, but the system is very stable.
                          1/ Two-parties leads to 'wasted vote' propaganda, which leads to two parties. This reinforces point 2.
                          2/ The system is bigger. Random fluctuations in support have less chance of electing an outsider. This reinforces point one.
                          3/ Cultural differences make it worse. Almost no-one in the USA would even consider voting for the Pirate Party, let alone the Monster Raving Loony Party, they take their elections too seriously.
                          4/ There is a concerted effort by both major parties to dismiss minor parties. Look up the details for how hard it is for someone to get on the ballot without being a member of one of the two parties. Back to point two.
                          5/ Non-compulsory voting. If you are going to make the effort to vote then you want your vote to count. Back to points one and three.
                          6/ Because of all that, any competent decent politician who wants to make a difference will join a major party. Back to point two.
                          7/ The concept of a 'protest vote' is different. It is done within the party primary rather than at the real ballot box. This confines dissent to within the two party structure. Back to point one.

                          It is like a multipath vicious cycle. It self-reinforces all the way up to almost inevitable.

                          --
                          If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.