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posted by martyb on Friday August 30 2019, @03:20PM   Printer-friendly
from the what's-good-for-the-goose-is-good-for-the-gander dept.

Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:

The battle over how to classify ride-hail drivers in California has intensified, with neither side backing down. After a caravan of drivers protested across the state earlier this week, Uber and Lyft began widely circulating online petitions on Wednesday. The companies' goal: Get people to join them in defeating Assembly Bill 5 as it's currently written before it becomes law.

If passed, the California state bill could allow for ride-hail drivers to be classified as employees rather than independent contractors, their current status.

"AB 5 may lead to hundreds of thousands of California Lyft drivers out of work," Lyft's petition reads. "As a result, passengers could wait longer for rides or risk losing reliable access to rideshare altogether."

Uber issued similar warnings in its petition and said, "Forcing all drivers to become employees could drastically change the rideshare experience as you've come to know it, and would limit Uber's ability to connect you with the dependable rides you've come to expect."

Uber and Lyft drivers are now classified as independent contractors, sometimes referred to as gig-workers, which means they don't get benefits including Social Security, health insurance, paid sick days and overtime. Many drivers say this system has led to exploitation. They say they've seen lower pay, higher costs and longer working hours as the cost of living has risen over the years.

Advocates for AB 5 call the ride-hailing companies' petitions a "misinformation campaign" and "dishonest." Mobile Workers Alliance and Gig Workers Rising, which have been organizing drivers around AB 5, say the bill is about workers' rights.

"Both of these companies are doing what looks like a very desperate last-ditch effort to try to get their customer base to go against drivers' rights," said Coral Itzcalli, spokeswoman for Mobile Workers Alliance. "The scheme of independent contractors is what companies have used for decades. What it does is saddle the cost of the business on the average worker."

[...] As an alternative to the bill, Uber said Wednesday that it would offer drivers a minimum wage of approximately $21 per hour. It also said it would offer access to benefits, such as paid time off, sick leave and compensation if injured while driving for the company. Additionally, Uber said it would let drivers have a "collective voice" at the company and the "ability to influence decisions about their work."

Lyft hasn't offered specifics, but it did say it'll give drivers a guaranteed earnings floor, a portable benefits fund and representation within the company.

Mobile Workers Alliance and Gig Workers Rising say $21 per hour isn't enough, however. As independent contractors, drivers have to cover all of their own expenses, including gas, car maintenance and repairs.

"It's not acceptable," said Leonardo Diaz, who's been driving for Uber and Lyft full-time for the last four years. "We are asking for $30 an hour to cover all the expenses."

Itzcalli from Mobile Workers Alliance agreed and said the ride-hailing companies' alternatives to AB 5 don't do enough to fulfill workers' rights.

"These companies tout themselves as being innovative and creating the jobs of tomorrow," she said. "But the reality is there is nothing innovative about worker exploitation."


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  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday August 30 2019, @04:19PM (14 children)

    by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday August 30 2019, @04:19PM (#887804) Homepage

    Well fuck. The single-largest appeal of Uber and Lyft is that they show up quickly, are reasonably priced, and have a more diverse pool of drivers than your typical stinky Somalian and Eritrean cabbies who talk like Ewoks.

    The bill is going to send those services back into the dark-ages of ride-hailing where drivers never show up and charge out the ass when they do. Also keep in mind that a lot of Uber and Lyft drivers do it for the personal contact. There are literally doctors and other professionals who do it for the experience, to socialize and talk to people from all walks of life.

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Friday August 30 2019, @04:21PM (10 children)

    by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday August 30 2019, @04:21PM (#887807) Journal

    If your convenience requires violating employment laws then fuck your convenience.

    It won't come to that, though, this is typical corporate lies about how treating people well will be the end of the world.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 30 2019, @04:28PM (9 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 30 2019, @04:28PM (#887811) Journal

      I really want to argue with the monkey, but he's right. Fuck Uber, and fuck Lyft. They are exploiting people, quite simply. Paying a fair wage might prevent them making so much profit? Oh, boo-hoo. People might stop investing? Boo-hoo again. Obligations to stockholders? To hell with that. Treat employees decently, or GTFO. And, yes, they are employees. Take that "contractor" shit, and shove it back into the orifice it came from.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday August 30 2019, @04:42PM (8 children)

        by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday August 30 2019, @04:42PM (#887817) Homepage

        Come back when you depend heavily on these services, and in some cases people depend on them daily to get to work.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 30 2019, @04:48PM (6 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 30 2019, @04:48PM (#887823) Journal

          I depend heavily on gas stations that supply gasoline for my ICE-powered SUV. So - all the people who work in gas stations should work for less than half of minimum fucking wage for my convenience?

          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday August 30 2019, @04:56PM (3 children)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday August 30 2019, @04:56PM (#887831)

            all the people who work in gas stations should work for less than half of minimum fucking wage for my convenience?

            Um... around here they're at flat minimum with zero chance for advancement, it's one of the shittiest jobs available - but... I guess the overall money is better than driving for Uber or selling Amway.

            --
            🌻🌻 [google.com]
            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday August 30 2019, @05:07PM (2 children)

              by Thexalon (636) on Friday August 30 2019, @05:07PM (#887834)

              I guess the overall money is better than driving for Uber or selling Amway.

              As sad as it is to say it, yes, it is.
              - Amway, like most MLM's, will cost you more than you make unless you're one of the earliest suckers. The pay for selling Amway, Herbalife, etc is less than zero for almost everybody involved.

              - Driving for a ride-sharing company looks better, until you factor in self-employment tax, income tax, depreciation on the vehicle, and the costs of owning a vehicle if driving for ride-shares is the only reason you own it. Plus, of course, you can't do this job unless you own a car that doesn't look like a complete POS, which most gas station attendants don't because it's not like you can afford a good car on $7.25 an hour.

              --
              The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
              • (Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Friday August 30 2019, @06:24PM (1 child)

                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday August 30 2019, @06:24PM (#887849)

                Just like when I washed dishes and made sandwiches for $3.35 per hour, along with all my other suburban high school comrades... driving mom's Mercedes to the job. In some ways, it's "work experience" and to an extent, you get what you pay for with part time high schoolers - but, all too often I see people in their 40s and 50s working those shit jobs today. It's not like the American public is starving to death and needs cheaper Big Macs.

                As for losers who depend on Uber to get around and can't afford to bear the true costs of transportation, maybe they should look into their local public transit buses - around here, if you are disabled, or old, or just have the balls to call them and say you need a ride, the public transit shuttles do door-to-door for less than the cost of an Uber, subsidized by your local taxes, of course, just like your Uber driver is when he ends up in the hospital without insurance.

                --
                🌻🌻 [google.com]
                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Friday August 30 2019, @08:54PM

                  by Thexalon (636) on Friday August 30 2019, @08:54PM (#887921)

                  Just like when I washed dishes and made sandwiches for $3.35 per hour, along with all my other suburban high school comrades... driving mom's Mercedes to the job.

                  And there are 2 aspects of this that are misleading:
                  1. Extrapolating that experience to the people whose moms have never even come close to having a Mercedes and are struggling to pay rent, eat, pay utility bills, and buy clothes, and have always gotten around on public transit or on foot. Or, alternately, people who are that mom, who are far more common in the minimum wage job market than suburban high school kids: If you can't get another job, this is the kind of thing you're doing.

                  2. Ignoring that $3.35 per hour you got paid in the 1980's is $8.00 in today's dollars, and the wages we're talking about are lower than that.

                  And those people in their 40's, 50's, or older? At least where I am, those people used to be working in factories making much higher wages, often thanks to a union. Now that the factories have all closed and moved offshore, they're working these awful jobs because it's what they can get and they're trying to keep their homes and families intact. If you get to know these folks, it's hard not to sympathize: For example, I knew one guy who had been in auto parts manufacturing, worked his way up to senior foreman over 40 years, and he was stocking shelves at a grocery store because he needed the health insurance - his former employer had conveniently gotten out of paying both the pension and health insurance he was owed when they closed the factory.

                  For those who think minimum wage is supposed to be a starter wage for high school kids getting their first job experience, no it isn't. Franklin Roosevelt was extremely clear about that when he pushed through the concept of a minimum wage back in the 1930's: It was supposed to be enough for an adult to support themselves and a kid or two.

                  --
                  The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday August 30 2019, @05:15PM (1 child)

            by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday August 30 2019, @05:15PM (#887839) Homepage

            SUV? Hahahaha, what are you, man? Some kind of soccer-mom? I drive a basic-bitch Nissan car but if I went big I'd get an extended-cab Chevy or GMC truck. SUVs are the worst of both worlds and unsafe as fuck.

            • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 30 2019, @05:29PM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 30 2019, @05:29PM (#887842) Journal

              Whatever. I've mentioned elsewhere that I liked some station wagons, when they were still a thing. A few of these cars on truck frames are cool. The Trailblazer is handy for a lot of things, and it's a fairly stable platform with which to pull a trailer. Try pulling a couple tons of stuff on your basic bitch Nissan. I've also mentioned that the Trailblazer gets right at 20 mpg. Not as good as some little cars, but better than most trucks.

        • (Score: 5, Interesting) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Friday August 30 2019, @05:13PM

          by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Friday August 30 2019, @05:13PM (#887837) Journal

          Then the Uber and Lyft drivers can convert over to a company that actually does employ them. Or Uber and Lyft can become compliant with the process of truly contracting their drivers, which would include things like getting them to sign contracts, detailing exactly how their compensation will work, confirming that the drivers possess their own chauffeur insurance (thus the insurer knows about the vehicle's actual usage and purpose as a part-time livery vehicle), and the drivers can comply with other regulations that independent livery services must comply with if they're independent of the company.

          And/or the passengers can seek alternate methods for transportation. The taxi industry would probably like to grow.

          I agree that they're not employees. The taxi services I've worked for before all had the driver renting their taxi vehicle for the period and you were an independent contractor who agreed to charge according to the company's policies and one received dispatch services from the company. But they're not being treated as contractors, either. In short, Uber and Lyft are pulling fast ones and think they can get away with being neither employer nor contractor. They're about to learn different, and during the time they had to negotiate their position consisted of, "nyah nyah nyah! Can't catch us!"

          --
          This sig for rent.
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday August 30 2019, @04:49PM

    by Thexalon (636) on Friday August 30 2019, @04:49PM (#887824)

    Also keep in mind that a lot of Uber and Lyft drivers do it for the personal contact. There are literally doctors and other professionals who do it for the experience, to socialize and talk to people from all walks of life.

    I know more than a few people who've driven for these services. In a nutshell: No, they don't. They do it for the money. If they want personal contact, they can find it at the pub, sporting events, clubs for every activity known to humanity, etc.

    And you're definitely living up to your name. No doctor I know personally, and none in their right mind would spend any time driving for a ride-sharing service. They get paid fairly well for their work, so they don't need the money, and they often work 80 hours a week, so by the time they get done with work they're exhausted and not really in the mood to socialize with drunken fools on their way home from the bar. In part because they get to meet the drunken fools on their way home from the bar shortly after they slam into a tree or get pulled into the hospital from the gutter they fell into from alcohol poisoning. The only doctors you'll find driving for ride-sharing services are those that are MDs and might have practiced in another country but aren't certified to practice medicine in the US because they haven't gone through a US residency program yet.

    And for what it's worth, the few times I've taken cabs, the drivers tended to be older African-Americans who were friendly enough. But that might just be where I am.

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Friday August 30 2019, @04:51PM (1 child)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday August 30 2019, @04:51PM (#887826)

    The bill is going to send those services back into the dark-ages of ride-hailing where drivers never show up and charge out the ass when they do.

    Love that crystal ball, man... glad you can see the future so clearly.

    The whole "independent contractor" gig is the basis of hobbies, not careers. If Uber and Lyft are just fun things that people do in their spare time for a little pocket money, then, sure, let them be independent contractors, let them work at a net financial loss - it keeps them busy and provides a service. Hell, the same theory has kept Big Macs and Double Whoppers cheap as shit for 50 years, pay the labor less than a living wage because we can.

    My crystal ball sees more consistent higher quality Uber drivers with longer term careers and more interest in building up their reputation if they are actually treated like employees and not disposables. But, maybe there are more people out there who want to be used as a doormat, than people interested in earning a living wage. What do I know?

    The flip side is: the corporate overlords are going to have to suck it up and provide some continuity for their people, if they're employees. They might have to figure out some healthcare coverage instead of relying on emergency rooms and state benefits. They might have to put together some group investment/retirement options instead of leaving the contractors to figure that out for themselves.

    Bottom line: if the employees are treated better, I would expect higher quality service. As long as they keep the barriers to starting work low, there shouldn't be a shortage of drivers. As long as they don't get into a race-to-the-bottom for cost savings, they shouldn't start to smell like yellow cabs.

    --
    🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 30 2019, @08:49PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 30 2019, @08:49PM (#887918)

      Calling it a hobby is a little disingenuous when most people are actually doing it as a second job. Hobby implies it is a choice or something pleasurable. (Though I do know a Lyft driver who enjoys making extra money this way, she also has little appreciation that the money she makes should also include vehicle depreciation and maintenance).

      And at the same time that innocent little hobby does knock drivers who are trying to make a living at livery service - the reviled taxi services - out of their survivability. Hobbies don't generally challenge the existing employed for those trying to make a primary living at it, unless you have an idea that counters that.

      And for all the knocks at the taxi industry few stop to consider that the race there already reached bottom. This is, in large part, why taxis are the way they are and don't become new cars ever year or every other year. The only reason ride hails aren't in the same category is because there will always be fresh blood bringing in their vehicles to burn their vehicle depreciation in a bid for more short-term cash.