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California Democrats are poised to pass landmark employment legislation over the objections of two of the companies that would be most affected: Silicon Valley ride-sharing giants Uber Technologies Inc. and Lyft Inc.
The bill already passed the State Assembly 59-15 and is expected to be voted on in the state Senate before the legislative session ends on Friday, possibly as soon as Monday night. Democratic Gov. Gavin Newsom has said he would sign the bill, which intends to force companies that rely on “gig workers” to reclassify them as employees, likely upending the business model of those companies.
Uber and Lyft have spent much of the year pushing lawmakers to alter the bill or exempt them. That effort has failed against opposition from labor unions and a large Democratic majority in Sacramento. The companies have argued the bill would introduce new costs and logistical challenges that would be bad for them and many of their employees, who prefer job flexibility. If the measure becomes law, it is expected to have national repercussions given California’s economic importance and history of creating precedent-setting business regulations.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 10 2019, @09:08PM (21 children)
They clearly aren't employees, IMHO, but I say that as someone who's been doing gig work for over 20 years (as an employee of a self-owned company).
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 5, Funny) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 10 2019, @09:13PM (3 children)
Am I forgiven for the typo yet?
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 10 2019, @09:20PM (2 children)
The classy thing to do was not to apologize. Walk the plank for your cheesy apology.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 10 2019, @09:29PM (1 child)
Oops, I spoke too soon. The grammar in my above comment was/is horrendous, and I unequivocally retract my criticism of PhatFuk, or whomever.
cheers,
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 10 2019, @09:35PM
Disregard that I suck cocks.
(Score: 3, Touché) by DannyB on Tuesday September 10 2019, @09:24PM (2 children)
If they are being underpaid AND exploited then THAT WOULD MAKE THEM employees under state law.
Not independable confactors.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 10 2019, @10:30PM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 11 2019, @03:09PM
that whole sentence sounds like a politicans sentence, one which intends to indicate that anyone that disagrees is somehow without sense or a grasp of simple things.
it could be the state law is clarifying what they believe the terms mean, and making it so -- much to the disappointment of the exploitative business model.
no one should cheer uber's business model, and the sooner it fails, the better everyone else will be, even if it no longer means you get to exploit the drivers with the click of a button, too.
(Score: 5, Informative) by barbara hudson on Tuesday September 10 2019, @10:54PM (11 children)
They're employees. They don't have the same right to refuse to pick up a client that a gig coder has to refuse a job. The ride-share companies are quick to penalize drivers who they think aren't hustling enought. They've also unilaterally cut rates, and instead of taking less profit, they've taken it out of the driver's remuneration. No contract rate negotiation - just take-it-or-leave-it employer-employee relationship (absent a union).
A gig coder gets to negotiate the pay rate (whether hourly or by job). Employees don't get to do that, which is another reason they're employees and not independent contractors. If they were able to negotiate rates with the clients, they'd be contractors.
Who pays them? The ride-share company, not the client. The client pays the ride share company, who both sets the price and the driver's cut - another indication that there is no independent contracting going on between the driver and the client.
Without the negotiation of a contract between the client and the driver, the drivers are simply not contractors.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 10 2019, @11:02PM (5 children)
If your answer is negative, then he's just dropped his lower bound to 49.99 $/hr, you'd better not disagree any more or he might lower his upper bound too.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 4, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Tuesday September 10 2019, @11:28PM (4 children)
The driver isn't negotiating with the client - hence the driver isn't entering into a contract with the client, and can't be considered a contractor.
Surge pricing puts this in the spotlight - the driver STILL isn't negotiating the rate, even when they would have huge leverage. It's all done by the rideshare company's algorithms.
Anyone who's done contracting knows that you'll get customers who will try to play the "I can get it for less from $SOMEBODY_ELSE" game, and that the best thing to do is just say you aren't willing to do it for that price, thank them, and stay on good terms for the next time.
Negotiating a contract isn't always the end result of negotiations, but it requires negotiations. Ride-share drivers don't get to negotiate a contract with their customers.
It's like taking a taxi - the price is what's on the meter, unless you negotiate a fixed price in advance, which is what a lot of small businesses do for small package deliveries via taxi, negotiate a contract. A package doesn't puke on the back seat, doesn't get confused as to where they're going, doesn't ask to stop by the ATM to get the cash to pay for the ride, and isn't going to make a fuss if you stop to use the washroom or buy something to eat.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday September 11 2019, @01:35AM (2 children)
Uber's business model depends on them exploiting someone.
If they can't exploit the customers then they need to exploit the drivers because if they don't they have no unique selling point.
Where I live we deregulated our taxi industry 20 years ago, and it was a total shit-show for a couple of years as every man and his dog with a smoke-belching old wreck decided they were a taxi driver forcing the price down to the point where no-one made any money.
As soon as the unreliable and incompetent went out of business, the industry settled down. Taxis are cheap and plentiful, but the drivers can make a living.
That is the market Uber has try to compete in, and guess what? They can't. They not cheaper, the cars are not better and their App doesn't do anything the taxi companies apps don't do.
The last I heard they are really struggling to find drivers, so the service is not even that good anymore.
I guess that only leaves the shareholders left to exploit really and I'm not sure how they manage that while they lose $2 billion every year.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Wednesday September 11 2019, @05:24AM (1 child)
Zombies aren't really well-known for their car (or body) maintenance. Dogs, well ... I guess on Uber, nobody knows you're a dog.
Taxi companies have apps? This is news to me, I guess (at least in the US).
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Wednesday September 11 2019, @05:44AM
They do in Oz now as well as New Zombieland.
I would guess that was the best thing to come out of Uber. It forced the taxi companies to modernize and co-operate to provide a better service.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday September 11 2019, @07:31AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by legont on Wednesday September 11 2019, @02:39AM (1 child)
On the other hand, most drivers are uber and lift at the same time. Is it OK for an employee to share her time with another company?
It is a real question for me. I work mostly from home. Can I legally work from home for two different companies full time?
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 11 2019, @12:12PM
IANAL; but I suggest you verify the contract texts. If it contains working hours you'll probably run into issues,
if they don't contain working hours and only describe what work is expected to be done and completed you're probably fine.
Either way, much depends on the boss, if he/she finds out and is being a dick you can lose that job either way. You can consult a lawyer, or, I would ask the bosses. If they are fine with it (preferably in writing) the need for a lawyer goes away.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Wednesday September 11 2019, @05:39AM (2 children)
Just to play devils advocate, you could look at it as two contracts. One between the driver and uber, one between the passenger and uber.
Uber certainly isn't an employee of the passenger, so that leaves the contract between uber and the driver.
Uber being the main (or sole) source of the gigs gives them the market position of being able to say "this is the price we are offering for this gig take it or leave it".
If you decide to leave it, then they are within their rights to give you less consideration for future gigs. When I am outsourcing tasks I am less likely to ask for quotes from companies who regularly decline to perform the work.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday September 11 2019, @03:44PM (1 child)
What I find funny is that the rideshare companies think that drivers would vote against this in a ballot measure. Not a chance. You're going to vote against vacation pay, health care benefits, and a guaranteed minimum for your labour? Only if you're an idiot.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 12 2019, @04:45PM
Only idiot I saw get mooted was you barbarahudson. Apk utterly dismantled and destroyed you on hosts files, C/C++ security/speed issues it has vs. Pascal, your blowhard erroneous lies he cut to pieces and you being caught admitting you stalk him by unidentifiable anon posts https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=33430&page=1&cid=889582#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Tuesday September 10 2019, @11:46PM (1 child)
Why are they "clearly" not employees?
I'm an independent contractor too, but some of the things that define my relationship with my clients that are plainly different from the relationship between ride-sharing drivers and Uber/Lyft:
- I have more than 1 client, so I don't answer to a single organization. Uber and Lyft drivers mostly do answer to a single company when they're working.
- I have near-complete autonomy about how I complete the work. Uber/Lyft drivers mostly don't.
- I can and do negotiate terms with my clients regarding rates, expectations, who owns what after the work's done, etc. Uber/Lyft drivers can't do that at all.
All 3 of those are part of a court's test for whether somebody is an employee or independent contractor. A potentially useful comparison is between Uber/Lyft and private car services: The main difference between the two is that car services own their fleets and are responsible for fuel, maintenance, and insurance while Uber/Lyft has successfully pushed all those costs onto the drivers. Which would be a little like a programming shop that demands that everybody use their personal laptop rather than providing one.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 11 2019, @02:09AM