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posted by martyb on Thursday February 13 2020, @05:27AM   Printer-friendly
from the Green-Signal dept.

The construction of HS2, a high speed rail link between London and the north of England, has been approved. The announcement was made by Boris Johnson yesterday. Phase 1, due for completion in 2028 at the earliest, will be between London and Birmingham; Phase 2, due in 2035 at the earliest, will be two separate lines onwards to Manchester and Leeds.

The trains will travel at up to 250 mph. They will otherwise be conventional, and will take electrical power from overhead catenary. The line will have connections with existing ones, enabling some trains to continue at lower speeds to further destinations, such as Liverpool and Scotland.

The routes will be broadly parallel with existing ones, which are generally running at full capacity. Rail passenger travel in the UK has greatly increased in recent years and this, rather than the reduction in journey times, is the main driver for the project.

Note : It is called HS2 because it is the second high speed line in the UK, HS1 being the link from St. Pancras International railway station in central London to the Channel Tunnel.


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  • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Thursday February 13 2020, @11:08AM (12 children)

    by isostatic (365) on Thursday February 13 2020, @11:08AM (#957672) Journal

    HMRC are hardly known for giving away things, but have allowed people to claim 45p per mile for car journeys. Manchester-London thus has a total cost (including wear and tear, deprecation, etc) of £190, and 8 hours return. The train is half that - 4 hours return and £90. Flying is about £400 return, but only makes sense for West London to South West Manchester (about 1h50 from arriving at heathrow to leaving at manchester).

    If you book in advance the train and plane prices do drop.

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  • (Score: 3, Informative) by kazzie on Thursday February 13 2020, @11:25AM (10 children)

    by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Thursday February 13 2020, @11:25AM (#957674)

    That £90 price tag from Manchester would be for a flexible off-peak ticket. The fact that it doesn't allow you to arrive into London between 07:30 and 11:30, or leave between 15:00 and 18:45, would make it impractical for many people. (See here [brfares.com] for details.) They'd either have to buy a yield-managed (single train validity) ticket in advance, at whatever the current yield price was, or opt for an anytime flexible return ticket for £360. (Or if you bought an anytime single one way, and an off-peak single in the other direction, you could do it for £270.) And that's without considering whether using a combination of tickets (split-ticketing) could save you more money.

    Giving a simple price for train travel is tricky. Often, the best answer is "it depends".

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 13 2020, @01:07PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 13 2020, @01:07PM (#957691)

      or opt for an anytime flexible return ticket for £360.

      To put this in perspective, a return flight to New York from Manchester is around the same.

      • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Thursday February 13 2020, @06:55PM (1 child)

        by isostatic (365) on Thursday February 13 2020, @06:55PM (#957812) Journal

        I just checked and United are charging £1400 return Manchester to New York, and if you want to change that ticket it will cost £150. Fare basis MKWRCB0

        I can get a London-NY flight on Norweigan for £1014 return with a £110 change.

        BA are selling the next Manchester-NY flight for £2,281.64 in economy.

        Compare apples to apples

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 13 2020, @11:00PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 13 2020, @11:00PM (#957902)

          Look at Aer Lingus - £410 - £414 or look here. [kayak.co.uk]

    • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Thursday February 13 2020, @07:03PM (6 children)

      by isostatic (365) on Thursday February 13 2020, @07:03PM (#957820) Journal

      Not many people will be driving from Manchester to London and arriving before 11:30. A 7AM train from Picadilly will get you to Euston for 9AM and your office for 0930. To get to a central london office for 0930 via car and tube only would require leaving about 4AM from Manchester. Same on the way back - to get back to Manchester for 9PM (when the first off peak trains start arriving) you'd have to leave London about 1530.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 14 2020, @01:39AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 14 2020, @01:39AM (#957982)

        20 years back, there was a northern service early train at about £25 return, leave Manchester at 7AM, depart Euston at 8PM. At 3% pa, that ticket should be around £45 but today the cheapest I can find is £175, dropping to £111 with a 5am departure. You can get a plane for less and £175 is around twice the cost of fuel and toll if you were to travel by car.

      • (Score: 2) by kazzie on Friday February 14 2020, @06:51AM (4 children)

        by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Friday February 14 2020, @06:51AM (#958101)

        Which is part of why the rail company have been able to increase the anytime fare so high: they've got a captive audience.

        • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Friday February 14 2020, @01:38PM (3 children)

          by isostatic (365) on Friday February 14 2020, @01:38PM (#958145) Journal

          You can also fly from Manchester to London, it's a similar price, but the frequency is far worse.

          If you care more about cost than time, you can travel from manchester to london for £45 return, departing Manchester after 0729, returning from Euston at any time after 0845. Takes about 4h, so still faster than driving. First train in the morning is 0730 Picadilly, change at Crewe onto the 0816, arriving Euston at 10:30.

          On the way back, the 1646, 1746, 1946 from Euston will get you to Crewe for 1901, 2002, 2200, then onto the 1937/2024/2308 to arrive at 2019/2107/2348

          So 4 hours down, 3h30 back - faster than the care, flexible walk-up ticket, for £45 return.

          Competition is great, for Manchester to London you've got

          Fast+Peak+Pricey+Flexible (Avanti)
          Slow+Peak+Cheap+Flexible (TfW/LNR)
          Fast+OffPeak+Reasonable+Flexible (Avanti)
          Slow+OffPeak+Cheap+Flexible (TfW/LNR)
          Slow+Peak+Reasonable+Fixed (various advanced tickets)
          Slow+OffPeak+Cheap+Fixed (various advanced tickets)
          Fast+Fixed+Pricey (Fly)
          Slow+Flexible+Reasonable (Drive)
          Slow+uncomfortable+cheap (Coach)

          Just off the top of my head.

          • (Score: 2) by kazzie on Friday February 14 2020, @05:07PM (2 children)

            by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Friday February 14 2020, @05:07PM (#958192)

            Yes indeed, there are a multitude of different options. I should have said that for people that need to be in London for the start of the working day, the anytime ticket is so high because they have a captive audience. (Except for those few that will choose to fly. But the air market for Manchester to London has really tanked since the train frequency went up to 3 per hour.)

            • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Friday February 14 2020, @05:21PM (1 child)

              by isostatic (365) on Friday February 14 2020, @05:21PM (#958196) Journal

              Still other options - like travelling the night before.

              If your limit is “travelling from central London to central Manchester in under 2.5 hours” then yes, there are limited choices. But if fares were too high someone would start a London city to Barton scheduled flight.

              Fact is that plenty of people are willing to pay for the convenience of fast frequent travel at peak times. Many more will pay even more to travel first class. For those who travel frequently season tickets are about £80 a day (£16k a year)

              For those unwilling there are plenty of tickets at a leas convenient time at far less, down below 10p/mile

              • (Score: 2) by kazzie on Saturday February 15 2020, @04:27AM

                by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Saturday February 15 2020, @04:27AM (#958415)

                I think we're both arguing vehementy from the same side of the argument, here. (That's my feeling at least.) Yes, there are enough people willing to pay ₤300 return to travel in and out of London at peak times, or get their expenses account to do so. For those that can't the railways offer several alternatives, most of which involve travelling at a quieter time.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 13 2020, @01:01PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 13 2020, @01:01PM (#957690)

    The train is half that - 4 hours return

    No, about 5 hours return plus local transport and if there are 4 of you, it's cheaper to hire an uber.