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Whether ageing can be cured or not, there are arguments for thinking about it like a disease. But there are major pitfalls, too.
The first depiction of humanity's obsession with curing death is The Epic of Gilgamesh—which, dating back to at least 1800 B.C., is also one of the first recorded works of literature, period. Centuries later, the ancient Roman playwright Terentius declared, "Old age itself is a sickness," and Cicero argued "we must struggle against [old age], as against a disease." In 450 B.C., Herodotus wrote about the fountain of youth, a restorative spring that reverses aging and inspired explorers such as Ponce de León. But what once was a mythical holy grail is now seemingly within tantalizing reach. As humans' understanding and knowledge of science and technology have increased, so too have our life spans.
[...] Maybe the ancients weren't wrong, and aging can be not only delayed but cured like a disease. Over the years, the movement to classify aging as a disease has gained momentum not only from longevity enthusiasts but also from scientists. In 1954, Robert M. Perlman published a paper in the Journal of American Geriatrics Society called "The Aging Syndrome" in which he called aging a "disease complex." Since then, others have jumped on board, including gerontologists frustrated by a lack of funding to study the aging process itself.
[...] However, labeling aging itself as a disease is both misleading and detrimental. Pathologizing a universal process makes it seem toxic. In our youth-obsessed society, ageism already runs rampant in Hollywood, the job market, and even presidential races. And calling aging a disease doesn't address critical questions about why we age in the first place. Instead of calling aging a disease, scientists should aim to identify and treat the underlying processes that cause aging and age-related cellular deterioration.
Medical understanding of that cellular deterioration began in 1962, when Leonard Hayflick, professor of anatomy at the University of California San Francisco School of Medicine, made fundamental breakthroughs to understanding aging: He discovered a limit to how many times typical human cells divide before they become senescent, or exhausted. Before then, scientists had assumed human cells were immortal. Hayflick also figured out that telomeres, which cap the ends of chromosomes and prevent them from fraying, much like plastic tips preserve the ends of shoelaces, shorten each time a cell divides. When the telomeres get short enough, a cell stops dividing.
[...] Many gerontologists distinguish between "health span" and "life span," the length of time someone enjoys relative good health versus the length of someone's life. Longevity while in poor health, pain, or with limitations that sap quality of life makes little sense. Fleming urges "regulators and public policy makers to embrace healthspan as an organizing focus for facilitating the development of medicine that target aging and chronic diseases." This shift would promote research on disease-causing processes, which could help us prevent more age-related diseases, not just manage them.
As gerontologists Sean Leng and Brian Kennedy put it, "Aging is the climate change of health care." The Population Reference Bureau predicts that 100 million Americans will be 65 or older by 2060. How will we care for this population? It's daunting to think about one's own aging, let alone the 16 percent of the world's population who will be seniors[sic] citizens by midcentury. A big-picture approach focused on the processes of aging—processes we share with nearly all living organisms—will put us on a path not only to longer lives but to healthier ones.
(Score: 3, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:21PM (17 children)
So we've been seeking a cure for death since 1800 B.C. and every single religion except Buddhism promises eternal life. But, it's the Silicon Valley CEOs that are the problem...
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @08:14PM (16 children)
As far as I know, all of the major religions other than Silicon Valley CEOs, promise eternal life after this mortal life. Not extending this mortal life. But I could be mistaken.
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(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:23PM (15 children)
Hmmm, regarding teh semi-infiniteness of the two-part model, I've just invented an tweak - just because you live "forever" in an afterlive doesn't mean you will be forced to endure infinite time - experienced time just needs to rareify exponentially. Like the image of someone falling towards the event horizon of a black hole which will never be seen to reach it - seemingly travelling forever.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:46PM (14 children)
Maybe you get a different perspective of "time". Maybe higher dimensions.
From OT, Job 11:7-9 [biblegateway.com], four dimensions:
From NT, Eph 3:17b-19 [biblegateway.com], four dimensions:
Maybe this present universe doesn't last forever.
2 Pet 3:11b-13 [biblegateway.com]
Rev 21:1 [biblegateway.com]
Isa 51:6 [biblegateway.com]
I can't know on this side of the veil, what it would be like.
But somehow, I don't think forever is going to be boring. And I'm not sure what forever will mean.
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(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday March 03 2020, @10:06PM (6 children)
You could have gone for a simpler example, like in Matthew 22
Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died.
28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God...
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(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @10:18PM (5 children)
I do happen to find that passage informative.
Here's another simple one regarding heaven and earth eventually passing away.
Matt 5:18 [biblegateway.com]
One thing I read out of that is that heaven and earth, at least the present, will disappear. The word "until" is used, rather than another word such as "unless". I just checked six English language translations (KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, HCSB, NASB). In 4 cases the word is "until" and in 2 cases "till".
I also like verse 7 of that same chapter as one of my favorites.
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(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @10:22PM
Doh! Replace one of the NASB with NLT.
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(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday March 03 2020, @11:28PM (1 child)
Heaven and earth AKA the system full reset. An end where defining end is problematic.
"where does space end?" technically nowhere, you can only possibly envision a limit, but a point outside space has no position defined.
"when does time end?" technically never, you can only possibly envision a limit, but a moment outside time has no place in the time axis defined.
Which is mirrored in "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". (NIV, while KJV does forget the son and say My father) a very interesting phrase.
Going further OT it is a phrase that has been abused to show Jesus as different from God, because "the father knows ONLY"... except that Jesus didn't say "I don't know" he said "the father knows".
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(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 04 2020, @02:41PM
I've considered several possibilities, for this present universe, nevermind the one to come.
1. Space is curved and of fixed size. If you go in a straight line in any direction, you eventually, for some insane definition of eventually, end up at your starting point. Flatland helps make this idea easily understandable.
2. Space is flat and of fixed size. There is a brick wall somewhere with a sign that says this is the end.
3. Space is infinite size. This presents the interesting possibility that there are infinite copies of everything. If you look at the decimal expansion of PI, you can find a digit 5. Then another 5, then another and another. If you look for a pattern such as 59, you can find it, then another and another, etc. If you look for 597, you can find it, and again, etc. The more complex the pattern the further you have to look to find it. But I could find another keyboard exactly like the one I'm typing on, down to the finest detail. Less frequently occurring, I could find another entire office building like the one I am in.
One thing that strikes me in Rev 21:1 is that the new Earth has no more sea. That implies that it really is new, or remodeled in some serious way. Also considering the dimensions of the holy city, the top of it would be not only in space, but way out in space. So maybe a new Earth is of significantly larger dimensions. But I don't care to go too far down the road of speculation where the text does not go.
The biggest takeaway I get is that I don't know when. No person knows when. Whether or not the Son knows can lead to those endless and pointless debates or controversies.
When you interpret any single verse, it must also be considered in light of the other 31,101 verses. There are too many others that say Jesus and God are one. Yet Jesus was on Earth for a time, and prayed to the Father. If Jesus is a mediator between man and God, then it would seem to imply he is separate, in some sense, from God. So make of all that what you will. Its like the endless debate over Calvanism.
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(Score: 4, Insightful) by Dr Spin on Tuesday March 03 2020, @11:37PM (1 child)
he word "until" is used, rather than another word such as "unless". I just checked six English language translations
So the truth is out: you did not read the original in Hebrew or Aramaic! (Or Greek).
There is no way that Matthew spoke English - as you say, you read a translation. Anyone who speaks a different language will tell you, English is way more specific about time than any other known language. Most languages would not bother making this kind of distinction - and that is the educated speakers. In times where most people were illiterate you could not expect any kind of precision on this kind of issue, and most cultures simply would not make any distinction at all.
And, as a Christian, you should be aware that Jesus made a big deal out of saying "never mind the small print - the big picture is the big deal!". His whole mission was to point out that what matters is love, not legal wrangles. In short, he was/is on the side of the 60's hippies, and against American bible belt preachers.
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 04 2020, @02:54PM
Yes, I admit it. I am at the mercy of translators. I do my best.
You picked one verse, but I used others including from the old testament. Rev 21:1's "new heaven and new earth" doesn't mention time, and expressly states the old heaven and earth have passed away. Another one I cited, 2 Pet 3:11-13 also has pretty clear language. You have to consider any single verse, in light of the other 31,101 verses in the bible, and I did. But I am at the mercy of translators. So I look at multiple translations routinely.
The big picture I get from what Jesus says is: Love God, and Love your Neighbor. Those two things, one relating to God and the other relating to people. A similar message about what God requires is also in the old testament.
Mic 6:8 [biblegateway.com]
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(Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday March 04 2020, @03:09AM (6 children)
You have a problem, though...
See, you're still thinking of "infinity" as "a really frickin' big number." Infinity is not a really frickin' big number. Infinity is infinity. What this means is that, since you are not God, at some point as time T approaches infinity, your finite mind will simply be incapable of new experiences. No matter how you grow, no matter what God does to you to "glorify" you and expand your sensorium and intellect, at some *finite* point in time/causality, you will hit a limit.
...and at that point, you will be exactly zero percent closer to the end of eternity than when you started. Ohh, shit. Now what?
Well, you could be made to forget things, so you can experience them "for the first time again." But in this context, that's as close to reincarnation as makes no difference; you would need to suffer a serious break in continuity for this to work, which is, shall we say, suspect. Or perhaps God will stultify you and/or to some extent remove your desire for growth and understanding. This...is even more suspect, and it tosses the free will theodicy right out the window.
Perhaps he will offer you annihilation. Doesn't exactly sound like "eternal life" does it? (Now, it does fit perfectly with the ACTUAL KOINE GREEK THE EARLY MANUSCRIPTS USED, "aionion zoe," but most of you believers would hear "Koine Greek" and think it has something to do with a change machine in a laundromat in Athens...). But at some point, you would accept.
In fact, plain ol' law of large numbers states that at some point as time T approaches infinity, anything that CAN happen--that is, which is not logically impossible--WILL happen. It is not logically impossible for God to offer any of his creations annihilation (absolutely sovereign and omnipotent, remember?) and accomplish the same, and it is not logically impossible for a free-willed essence to wish to cease to exist. Therefore, it is not logically impossible for a free-willed essence to wish to cease to exist, and for God to offer said essence annihilation.
In other words, there is a perfectly real probability that at some point all non-God existences could be annihilated. In fact, this is inevitable given enough time.
Oh, but wait, this could get even worse. It's *also* not logically impossible for God to get bored with, angry at, or otherwise consider himself done with any or all of his creations, and simply toss them into eternal, infinite Hell because fuck you I'm God and what are you gonna do about it? So there is a perfectly real probability that at some point all non-God essences would be thrown into Hell, for any reason or no reason at all. In fact, this is ALSO inevitable given enough time, assuming the above scenario doesn't happen first.
Are you starting to rethink this "eternal life" thing yet? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you're not being told the whole story? Do you ever wonder if the "rebellion in heaven" wasn't actually the first, if this sort of thing is cyclical?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @08:10AM (1 child)
Well, no. Part of many Christian theologies is that since the soul will live forever, it is infinite, not godlike but still capable of infinities, and that as a nonphysical entity such a soul isn't bound by things like conservation of energy, entropy, information theory, QCD, etc.
So by that theology, there's no finite bound to selfhood, which you require for the rest of your argument.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 05 2020, @01:45AM
Wrong again. Infinite duration is not the same thing as infinite capacity for experience. There are different kinds of infinities.
...and if I were you, I'd start studying my Koine. "Aion[io{n/s}]" by itself does not carry the force of "infinity" any more than "Sheol" ever meant "Hell" in the Old Testament. Reading the Bible only in English gives an extremely tilted, biased, and inaccurate understanding of what the thing actually says. Which is no surprise, since so does reading it in Latin.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @08:23AM (1 child)
Oooph. Do you know what the odds are, of hitting a perfect '1' when throwing countably infinite, perfectly sharp darts at a number line? Zero. But nothing stops it from happening; it CAN happen. The integers cannot fill the reals. Your statement is quite mistaken. One needs a higher-order or same-order infinity of attempts and even then it's not guaranteed; a fun example is if event A might or might not occur, and iff it does at that point exactly one of B and C occurs, then B and C are both possible, but at least one will certainly not happen.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 05 2020, @01:37AM
Sorry, but this isn't applicable. Yes, the real numbers are an infinitely dense set while the integers aren't, but we're not speaking of numbers here. And even if we were, what you're saying is actually wrong: the probability isn't zero, it's within epsilon of zero, infinitesimally larger than zero. That's still not zero, and as time approaches infinity, that probability still goes to one.
Furthermore, God's actions are not random and the range of possibilities as to how he'd deal with his creations is not infinite, because there are only a finite (or at least aleph-null-order, countably-infinite) set of ways to interact with finite creatures (us). That's a limitation of us, not God.
Come back when you've got some Cantorean set theory under your belt :)
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 04 2020, @03:01PM (1 child)
I said elsewhere that I'm not sure I even know what forever even means. One can talk about more and more time, and God changing his mind about promises he has made. Maybe we will transcend time. Maybe God can go on creating forever. Maybe something else. Such speculation doesn't really get us anywhere. I have my ideas and you have yours.
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(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 05 2020, @01:32AM
Ohh, ho ho ho no, Danny-boy. You don't get to escape this one. Infinity is one of those things that gets you comin' and goin'. Don't tell me you don't know what "forever" means. A child knows what "forever" means.
"I have my ideas and you have yours" is an empty, vacuous truth, a tautology. Some ideas are worth more than others. Specifically, ones which are internally inconsistent when taken to their logical conclusion aren't worth the proverbial fetid pair of dingoes' kidneys. And I'm well aware that's how your kind say "burn in hell, infidel" without actually being so crass as to say it, so spare me the milquetoast passive-aggressiveness, okay? The only argument your kind ever had that had any force of persuasion at all was back when you'd torture and kill unbelievers, and that's not even an argument so much as it is finally and decisively out-shouting opinions you dislike.
But after all, since you believe your God will do that *forever* (there's that word again!) to anyone who doesn't "believe right," obviously it's right and proper to do it here on earth, no?
Apply this tube of Preparation H, then go back and read what I wrote without the asspain. Read it very carefully. Step through each premise. Remember that as time asymptotically approaches eternity, *anything* that is not logically impossible not only can happen but is *guaranteed* to happen at least once. Realize that nothing is logically impossible for an omnipotent, absolutely-sovereign God. Understand, with your entire mind and body and soul, that there is *jack shit you can do about it* if your God decides for any reason or no reason at all to drop you into Hell. Who's gonna stop him? Who's gonna hold him accountable? What are you gonna say as you scream and howl and writhe and broil, "Butbutbutbut YOU PROMIIIIIIISSSSSED!"?
Hopefully, as you think about these things, you will begin to see why your religion (as well as its forebear Judaism and its descendant Islam) is so utterly toxic. With any luck you'll also begin to understand why fundamental tenets of the Abrahamic faiths like divine-command metaethics are both wrong and dangerous, and then expand this understanding into why the entire top-down structure of these religions is so poisonous to humanity.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...