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posted by martyb on Monday March 09 2020, @08:01PM   Printer-friendly
from the You-say-tomato-they-say-promoting-child-exploitation dept.

What does it mean to "promote child exploitation"? When it's figurines that have been sold for years but now violate Amazon's statutes about promoting child exploitation which resulted in listings being removed. Chuck Gaffney has run a successful Amazon store for years selling anime-related products, up until recently when Amazon started cracking down on anything that could be perceived as "promoting child exploitation".

While it can be difficult for online retailers to represent themselves as selling genuine merchandise — meaning reputation means a lot — this type of behavior from the market owner is very discouraging. In response, the seller blames a "neopuritan crusade" against anime figures.

The characters at the center of this disagreement are: Hatsune Miku and Kaitō Tenshi Twin Angel.

It's a wonder that anything anime-related survives importation to the US from Japan.


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Freeman on Monday March 09 2020, @08:25PM (24 children)

    by Freeman (732) on Monday March 09 2020, @08:25PM (#968655) Journal

    Yes, Anime is animated, like children's Cartoons. No, that doesn't mean it's a children's cartoon.

    To what extent would something like that promote child exploitation? That would be difficult to quantify. As far as, how far is too far? That's a crazy line of crazyness, best to err on the side of caution to a certain degree. Especially, if you're a giant corporation with really deep pockets. Nothing like losing a lawsuit over child exploitation to drag the company name through the mud. Unless, they in fact are trying to be a little overzealous when it comes to protecting against that kind of thing. I'm sure there's super creepy stuff out there and I would rather not stumble on it on a normal site like Amazon.

    Sound business decision, sucks to be him.

    --
    Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
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  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2020, @08:33PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2020, @08:33PM (#968664)

    In the age of the algorithm, bots run most of the business. The bots will run you off the platform if enough puritans flag you.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 09 2020, @09:56PM (20 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 09 2020, @09:56PM (#968713) Journal

    All of that Japanese stuff is kinda "icky" to me. Manga, anime, and whatever other names it goes by. The girls all have features that make them look like children, but they have well developed mammaries. That's before you even get into the genuine porn, with very explicit drawings. I've looked at a bit of it a few times, and I've always felt that it flirts with child porn boundaries. If some corporation doesn't want to be associated with it, that's cool with me. If government decides that some, or all, of it violates CP laws, well, so be it. But, government won't do so, because, A: government has never been able to define precisely what porn is, let alone child porn. and B: There's probably enough money in the business to buy enough congress critters to prevent any laws being passed.

    For myself, I'll avoid it, and not give much of a damn if it is shut down.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2020, @11:42PM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2020, @11:42PM (#968751)

      Then you really don't get it. "anime" is just an animation style. Suggesting it be shut down is no different than saying live theater should be shut down, or CGI movies should be shut down. "anime" encompasses many genres, such as action, comedy, romance, and yes, even porn. (Heck, the original Transformers could be considered anime - if that doesn't fit the giant robots category then nothing does!)

      It is unfortunate you may have seen the wrong kind, but the better ones are hardly about sex or sexuality - some can be quite cerebral. Perhaps the real threat here is that it can introduce a different way of thinking.

      Shut "anime" down and then what? They will shut some other product down because reasons. Soon you will only be buying products, reading books, and viewing web sites (hint: not this one) that "they" want.

      • (Score: 2, Disagree) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday March 10 2020, @02:05PM (2 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 10 2020, @02:05PM (#969043) Journal

        You missed the point. If your enema has childish features, and huuuuuuge hooters, it's likely to be CP.

        • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Tuesday March 10 2020, @03:19PM (1 child)

          by Freeman (732) on Tuesday March 10 2020, @03:19PM (#969082) Journal

          Wait, so like every, Hooters "restaurant" in existence? I don't buy it. "childish features" and "huuuuuuge hooters", so like Daisy on the Dukes of Hazzard. Then there's the many various versions of "The evil baby sitter" films where there's plenty of people doing naughty things with the baby sitter. Oh, but she was supposed to be 18, right. You're attacking something that you don't like, because it's "different". Yet, the media and hollywood is doing a bang up job of sexualizing young females. Amazon wants to fight the good fight, they need to do a whole lot better than pander to the old fogies who think that Anime is "the devil".

          --
          Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday March 10 2020, @08:31PM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 10 2020, @08:31PM (#969271) Journal

            We all realize that millenials didn't create anime, or child porn, or much of anything, right? They've taken some things and made them their own, by now, they've invented little.

      • (Score: 1) by slashnot on Tuesday March 10 2020, @08:11PM

        by slashnot (8607) on Tuesday March 10 2020, @08:11PM (#969258)

        ^ This, exactly. I'm watching the catalog of Studio Ghibli [wikipedia.org] films now with my children. They are beautifully drawn and the stories are very moving - I highly recommend them. Most "anime" is innocent and harmless. It shouldn't ALL be judged by the few racy pieces of work that exist.

        Examples of other words that have become bad, not because of their design, but how they are used: "torrent" and "Kodi". These are legit services that have become demonized by association with illicit activities. I hope this doesn't also happen to "anime".

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by krishnoid on Tuesday March 10 2020, @12:07AM (3 children)

      by krishnoid (1156) on Tuesday March 10 2020, @12:07AM (#968765)

      One easy thing would be to change the costumes and anatomy slightly for release to the western market. I mean, it's drawing maybe a total of 5 lines a little differently, if you keep the eyes the same.

      • (Score: 5, Funny) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 10 2020, @01:07AM

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday March 10 2020, @01:07AM (#968798)

        One easy thing would be to change the costumes and anatomy slightly for release to the western market.

        This sounds like a lot of work actually, for the hand-drawn stuff. To make it suitable for the American market, they'd need to make the characters 2-3 times fatter.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @05:02AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @05:02AM (#968927)

        For starters, that's quite a bit of effort in an animated medium.
        But that ignores the other issue -- it's literally censorship of art to fit a government's ideal.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @01:12PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @01:12PM (#969020)

          why not, the powers in charge (governmental and commercial) have decided the first amendment was a terrible idea and we shouldn't have it anymore. Speech is controlled six ways to Sunday. drawings are really just another form of speech.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Mykl on Tuesday March 10 2020, @12:35AM (3 children)

      by Mykl (1112) on Tuesday March 10 2020, @12:35AM (#968775)

      I've looked at a bit of it a few times, and I've always felt that it flirts with child porn boundaries

      That's just the stuff that makes it out of Japan. Within the country, they do have full-blown Manga/Anime CP. That's because their legal definition of CP is that it must include an actual human. If it's just a drawing, then no child was harmed and the material is therefore legal.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @12:52AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @12:52AM (#968784)

        That’s because their definition has been corrupted to be basically meaningless to the words used. In some places a 20 year old posing for nude portrait charcoal artwork somehow makes the definition. It’s Puritanism gone mad.

        At least Japan’s take on CP makes some sense.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @07:02PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @07:02PM (#969221)

        If it's just a drawing, then no child was harmed

        But think of the impact on the cartoon characters!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @09:29PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @09:29PM (#969303)

          Yeah, they might enjoy it.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @12:56AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @12:56AM (#968787)
      Yes, if the government legislates that cuteness no longer exists as a universal dynamic, and that the stereotypical balding, beetling, sauce-faced otaku is in point of fact every bit as attractive and desirable as a pretty young lady, and that your art had damn well better reflect that (even if the sauce-faced otaku doesn't actually get treated any better in the real world, even if this means the art revolts everyone and doesn't sell) -- I, too, pre-commit to tolerating this with full passivity (and not a faint whiff of smugness).

      ...Mostly because that's about two steps away from ruling that the Second Law doesn't hold, and once they do that, they'll all starve, and then I can move in and steal their shit.

      Who wants a slightly used F15?
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @03:03AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @03:03AM (#968871)

      For myself, I'll avoid it, and not give much of a damn if it is shut down.

      You must be referring to the Internet.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by edIII on Tuesday March 10 2020, @03:37AM (1 child)

      by edIII (791) on Tuesday March 10 2020, @03:37AM (#968886)

      Yeah, look into this a bit more.

      There is a LOT of anime out there. I'd recommend looking into Crying Freeman. It's a definite art form, and there is some beautifully made stuff. Did you like any of the Japanese Anime movies out lately? Some really beautiful art. Only until recently did I explore the TV shows at all, because the movies were what I liked. Seriously, see Akira [wikipedia.org].

      The TV shows come in some radically different flavors. There is an off-shoot that is definitely explicit, and fully stated to be for young teen males. The 2nd title is maybe questionable, but I'm not sure I see child exploitation. You don't have to twist a young Japanese guy's arm to want to watch those shows :) Still, it's arguable.

      The 1st example isn't a show at all, but a software bank. It's just voice software from Japan, built to emulate somebody. In this case, it's a teen pop music princess. Who is real. They have actual concerts and shit. This is just the software to emulate the voice, and other than the graphics on the front, has nothing to do with manga at all.

      I'm a little disappointed. Thought I had some links to some naughty fanservice panty show that had the puritans clutching pearls. All I got was some voice software and a lame anime show.

      --
      Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
      • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Tuesday March 10 2020, @03:24PM

        by Freeman (732) on Tuesday March 10 2020, @03:24PM (#969085) Journal

        Full Metal Panic: FUMOFU has "fans service", I don't think the idea of "fan service" was around when Akira was made. Akira is more of a psychological horror film in the same vein as Firestarter with Drew Barrymore.

        --
        Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @05:07AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @05:07AM (#968928)

      The girls all have features that make them look like children, but they have well developed mammaries.

      Have you seen what an 18 year old JAV actress actually looks like?
      Or hell, just what under-24 Japanese women look like? They look young.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @08:56AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2020, @08:56AM (#968966)

      Don't watch No Game No Life

    • (Score: 2) by mobydisk on Friday March 13 2020, @05:39PM

      by mobydisk (5472) on Friday March 13 2020, @05:39PM (#970782)

      All of that Japanese stuff is kinda "icky" to me. Manga, anime, and whatever other names it goes by. The girls all have features that make them look like children, but they have well developed mammaries.

      ALL of them? If the only anime and manga you have been exposed to looks like that, then that is because it is what you seek out; or what your friends are referring you to.

      For myself, I'll avoid it, and not give much of a damn if it is shut down.

      We should all defend the right of others to say and read (or watch) things that we may not approve of. Freedom of expression is an inalienable right.

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by PinkyGigglebrain on Monday March 09 2020, @10:03PM

    by PinkyGigglebrain (4458) on Monday March 09 2020, @10:03PM (#968720)

    Fun fact; originally animated "cartoons" were intended for adults, not children.

    Just look at Betty Boop [wikipedia.org]

    --
    "Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
  • (Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday March 10 2020, @12:25AM

    by driverless (4770) on Tuesday March 10 2020, @12:25AM (#968770)

    It's a wonder that anything anime-related survives importation to the US from Japan.

    Given that this is the country that brought is delicacies like ahegao tentacle rape manga, some of it going back centuries, e.g. "The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife", it's surprising anything survives importation from Japan.