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posted by martyb on Tuesday March 10 2020, @11:51PM   Printer-friendly
from the quite-the-coc-up dept.

Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond:

Last week, Eric S Raymond (often known as ESR, author of The Cathedral and the Bazaar, and co-founder of the Open Source Intiative) was banned from the Open Source Intiative[sic] (the "OSI").

Specifically, Raymond was banned from the mailing lists used to organize and communicate with the OSI.

For an organization to ban their founder from communicating with the group (such as via a mailing list) is a noteworthy move.

At a time when we have seen other founders (of multiple Free and Open Source related initiatives) pushed out of the organizations they founded (such as with Richard Stallman being compelled to resign from the Free Software Foundation, or the attempts to remove Linus Torvalds from the Linux Kernel – both of which happened within the last year) it seems worth taking a deeper look at what, specifically, is happening with the Open Source Initiative.

I don't wish to tell any of you what you should think about this significant move. As such I will simply provide as much of the relevant information as I can, show the timeline of events, and reach out to all involved parties for their points of view and comments.

The author provides links to — and quotations from — entries on the mailing list supporting this. There is also a conversation the author had with ESR. The full responses he received to his queries are posted, as well.


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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Wednesday March 11 2020, @12:10AM (20 children)

    by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Wednesday March 11 2020, @12:10AM (#969355) Journal

    After reading the linked article, still have no idea what was written in the first place. All I know is that after a 20 year absence, ESR decided to get into a bun-fight with the current people running the show.

    1. After 20 years absent, it's not your place to run any more.

    2. Irrelevant org fights with irrelevant former founder. This isn't 1995, nobody gives a damn about either ESR or OSI. Get over yourselves. Seriously, what have you guys done since the turn of the century that's relevant to the average user? Or anyone who isn't ESR or a member of OSI?

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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by MostCynical on Wednesday March 11 2020, @01:50AM (10 children)

    by MostCynical (2589) on Wednesday March 11 2020, @01:50AM (#969396) Journal

    When volunteer-based organisation have "old guard" members in conflict with the current board/committee/organisers, there are rarely any good outcomes.
    either the oldies rally other oldies (often around the cry "change is bad"), and they all leave, making the organisation non-viable, or the oldies assert control, "re-take" the board positions, and all the new people leave, making the organisation unviable, or, everyone fights, everyone leaves, making the organisation unviable

    The only real variable is the amount of time it takes to implode.

    --
    "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
    • (Score: 2, Offtopic) by barbara hudson on Wednesday March 11 2020, @02:03AM (2 children)

      by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Wednesday March 11 2020, @02:03AM (#969406) Journal
      You just described the DNC.
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      • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday March 12 2020, @03:04AM

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday March 12 2020, @03:04AM (#970056)

        Not exactly, I think. Basically, just like the GOP has a few different camps, the DNC also has different camps, with two main ones. One is the progressive wing, which is Bernie and his fans. The other is the neoliberal wing, which is Biden (and formerly Hillary, not sure if she's active in the party any more though since we never hear about her) and friends. The GOP has something similar: it has the Christian conservatives, the upper-middle-class people who want to pay less taxes, and the gun nuts. The big, big difference I see between the two parties, however, is that the different GOP camps will more reliably get out and vote for their candidates, even if they don't like them that much. Whereas on the Democrat side, people (especially younger and more progressive ones) will get pissed off and stay home when they really hate their candidate.

        If we adopted a better voting system, we wouldn't have just these two parties: they'd break up and we'd quickly have 3-10 different parties, like western European nations do.

        Anyway, the big reason this isn't like the DNC is because the OP was describing how these organizations end up collapsing or becoming completely irrelevant. This isn't happening with the DNC (or GOP). This kind of in-party turmoil really isn't new; they have lots of fights and change over time. Maybe you've forgotten, but back in '68 the Dems had a similar fight, with one popular guy getting the shaft by the party so they could push their unpopular candidate, and they both lost to Nixon. The DNC didn't die; they still had plenty of seats in Congress after that, and finally got a President elected (Carter), though it took a while. Of course, then we had 12 years of GOP presidents, but then we had 8 years of Clinton, and 8 years of Obama after W's two terms. Neither party is going away; Duverger's Law prevents it.

      • (Score: 2) by Lester on Thursday March 12 2020, @08:38AM

        by Lester (6231) on Thursday March 12 2020, @08:38AM (#970158) Journal

        What does DNC stand for?

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Wednesday March 11 2020, @02:40AM (6 children)

      by fido_dogstoyevsky (131) <axehandleNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday March 11 2020, @02:40AM (#969440)

      When volunteer-based organisation have "old guard" members in conflict with the current board/committee/organisers...
      ...either the oldies ...all leave, making the organisation non-viable,
      ...all everyone fights, everyone leaves, making the organisation unviable
      ...the new people leave, making the organisation unviable,

      AKA "Emrace, Extend, Extinguish" accelerated by moles.

      I KNOW I'm paranoid, but I'm starting to think I'm nowhere near paranoid enough.

      --
      It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 11 2020, @03:38AM (2 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 11 2020, @03:38AM (#969471) Journal

        AKA "Emrace, Extend, Extinguish" accelerated by moles.

        I KNOW I'm paranoid, but I'm starting to think I'm nowhere near paranoid enough.

        I saw this happen in organizations with zero significance, power or otherwise. It's human nature. Now having said that, it's not going to take rocket science for a powerful outsider to exploit such an inclination for their own sinister purposes.

        • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday March 11 2020, @02:05PM (1 child)

          by PiMuNu (3823) on Wednesday March 11 2020, @02:05PM (#969615)

          > with zero significance

          The good old People's Liberation Front?

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 11 2020, @04:46PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 11 2020, @04:46PM (#969691) Journal
            More like a college geology club for an example with an official annual budget under $200. Near as I can guess, the people in question were looking for resume bullet points, and thought (correctly) that club office positions would be a low effort way to get that. Club activity went from 4-6 trips/activities per semester to one or two, barely enough to qualify the club for that massive school funding.
      • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Thursday March 12 2020, @01:04AM (2 children)

        by MostCynical (2589) on Thursday March 12 2020, @01:04AM (#969962) Journal

        Never assign malice where incompetence would explain things.
        Never assign incompetence where pettiness would explain things.

        Never underestimate how much damage petty people can do.

        --
        "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
        • (Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Thursday March 12 2020, @09:51PM (1 child)

          by fido_dogstoyevsky (131) <axehandleNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday March 12 2020, @09:51PM (#970402)

          Never assign malice where incompetence would explain things.
          Never assign incompetence where pettiness would explain things.

          I'm having trouble imagining that high a level of incompetence or pettiness - I really think malice is the better explanation, and this is just a part of a much larger plot.

          Never underestimate how much damage petty people can do.

          Especially if they're also malicious.

          --
          It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
          • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Thursday March 12 2020, @10:22PM

            by MostCynical (2589) on Thursday March 12 2020, @10:22PM (#970417) Journal

            It is actually worse when they "mean well" and have "best intentions" because they " know what's right"

            --
            "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
  • (Score: 5, Informative) by NotSanguine on Wednesday March 11 2020, @02:07AM (4 children)

    by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Wednesday March 11 2020, @02:07AM (#969414) Homepage Journal

    Because you didn't bother to read the source material, as I'm doing now.

    Apparently, the brouhaha stems from several threads started by ESR on the License-discuss mailing list [opensource.org]. Those threads are:
    [License-discuss] "Fairness" vs. mission objectives
    [License-discuss] "Ethical open source" and the Persona Non Grata clause.
    [License-discuss] Ethical open source licensing - Dual Licensing for Justice

    AFAICT, an additional thread also feeds into this:
    [License-discuss] Language, appropriateness, and ideas

    Unfortunately, the author of TFA declined to discuss the content of these exchanges and, as such, if you want to have any real idea about it, you'll need to read the threads above.

    Personally, I didn't see anything all that outre from ESR in the threads above, but I'm sure he has enemies who were ready to pounce, given what a dick he's been in the past about other things.

    I don't see that as a valid reason, but it may well be true.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    • (Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday March 11 2020, @02:19AM (3 children)

      by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Wednesday March 11 2020, @02:19AM (#969427) Journal

      After a quick look, it's just another stupid philosophical war with no real-world import. Does anyone really submit licenses to OSI for "approval" any more? I mean really, who gives a shit if they approve or disapprove of a license. Just read the license and either accept it, reject it, or ask for a modified version.

      The OSI was started as a hobby horse vanity project, and it has never gone much beyond that. When they first announced its' creation, I said "who cares?" Turns out not many, and not much. Such is the problem with vanity projects that don't meet a real need. There was never a need for a "gatekeeper of the licenses."

      --
      SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 11 2020, @07:15AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 11 2020, @07:15AM (#969536)

        You're sure putting a lot of time and effort into something you claim not to give a fuck about.

        I guess it's just another opportunity for you to talk out of your ass.

        Good times!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 11 2020, @07:24PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 11 2020, @07:24PM (#969762)

          Not sure why she hates OSS so much, but she reaaaalllly hates it.

      • (Score: 2) by Lester on Saturday March 14 2020, @09:32AM

        by Lester (6231) on Saturday March 14 2020, @09:32AM (#971118) Journal

        Well OSI used to save me the time to read the license and understand it, legal texts are not always easy for non-professionals.

        I used to trust that if OSI said it was open source it was open source. And if wasn't in the list OSI-approved, it was because it was not open source.

        There could be some false negatives: Some not in approved ones were still queued waitting for revision, or the developers had not yet submitted the approval request, or they will never be included because the project leader would never submitt a request because didn't care what OSI said.

        Not any more.

        Now, maybe it's not in the list of approved ones just because OSI doesn't like its CoC or one of its developers.

  • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Wednesday March 11 2020, @08:45PM (3 children)

    by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Wednesday March 11 2020, @08:45PM (#969807)

    I've been trying to distill many years of experience moderating an _interesting_ forum into a book, and one of the big questions to address is the role of tone policing in forum administration.

    Inclusiveness isn't a dirty weasel word and the fact is that a forum can lose valuable people if nobody keeps abuse off their backs. There's also the need to keep discussions on track instead of turning into flame wars.

    That's not to take a position on this case, which I have no adequate information about.

    • (Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Thursday March 12 2020, @02:12AM (2 children)

      by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Thursday March 12 2020, @02:12AM (#970017) Journal

      That's what the view threshold is for. Everyone can select what they're comfy with. If someone sets it to -1 Raw and uncut, and then complains, it's kind of like the prude who complained about their neighbours nude sunbathing, and when the cops show up, they're standing on a step-ladder on the top floor balcony with a pair of binoculars and going "see, see!"

      --
      SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
      • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday March 12 2020, @03:08AM (1 child)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday March 12 2020, @03:08AM (#970062)

        That was always suggested back on the green site. The problem with that there, and here, is that anonymous posters always get stuck at -1, so doing that means you can't see AC comments. And sometimes there's good reasons people post AC: they're posting something that can personally identify them.

        Honestly, I think it'd work better on a Reddit-style forum where every post starts out at a neutral moderation value, and then really awful posts can be very quickly down-modded with a single mouse click (unlike here, where you only have a handful of votes, and using them is actually a bit of a pain and takes you away from your current view).

        • (Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday March 15 2020, @04:39PM

          by barbara hudson (6443) <barbara.Jane.hudson@icloud.com> on Sunday March 15 2020, @04:39PM (#971606) Journal

          If you're not willing to put your name your comments, then why should you start as anything other than -1? Seriously, even a nym is no big deal, it's pretty much the same as anonymous unless you use your real name, which almost nobody does because "OMG I might be DOXXED", whereas doxxing is nothing to be afraid of.

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          SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.