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Russia Space Chief Spars with Elon Musk Over Launch Pricing

posted by Fnord666 on Monday April 13 2020, @04:04PM   Printer-friendly
from the cheaper-by-the-dozen dept.

Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:

The head of Russia's space agency on Saturday accused Elon Musk's SpaceX of predatory pricing for space launches, which is pushing Russia to cut its own prices. "Instead of honest competition on the market for space launches, they are lobbying for sanctions against us and use price dumping with impunity," Roscosmos chief Dmitry Rogozin wrote on Twitter.

Rogozin, who is often outspoken on Twitter and previously engaged in online banter with Elon Musk, on Friday raised the issue during a meeting with President Vladimir Putin.

He said the Roscosmos space agency "is working to lower prices by more than 30 percent on launch services to increase our share on the international markets." "This is our answer to dumping by American companies financed by the US budget," he said. The market price of a SpaceX launch is $60 million, but NASA pays up to four times that amount, he said.

Musk responded to the criticism Saturday by saying on Twitter: "SpaceX rockets are 80% reusable, theirs are 0%. This is the actual problem."

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  • (Score: 4, Funny) by takyon on Monday April 13 2020, @04:36PM (15 children)

    by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday April 13 2020, @04:36PM (#982058) Journal

    Russian Space Agency Abolished and Replaced Following Financial Violations [soylentnews.org]

    The space agency will be replaced by a state corporation, also called Roscosmos. Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin told a talk show that "It will take maybe another two to three years to intensively technically re-equip the rocket and space industry." He warned last week that Russia could lose its 40% share of the global commercial satellite launch market to firms such as SpaceX if reforms do not succeed.

    NASA and Roscosmos Release Joint Statement on ISS Leak Amid Rumors [soylentnews.org]

    Publicly, Roscosmos leader Dmitry Rogozin was quoted as saying about Russia's investigation into the leak, "Results we have received do not give us an objective picture. The situation is much more complex than we earlier thought." Privately, however, several sources from the space agency are leaking much juicier comments to the Russian media. "Our Soyuz is next to the Rassvet (Dawn) module, right next to the hatch into the American segment of the station," one source told Kommersant. "Access to our ship is possible only with the permission of our commander, but we cannot exclude an unsanctioned access by the Americans."

    Head of Russian Space Agency Roscosmos Wavers on Lunar Orbital Platform-Gateway [soylentnews.org]

    Moscow may abandon a project to build a space station in lunar orbit in partnership with U.S. space agency NASA because it does not want a "second fiddle role," a Russian official said on Saturday.

    [...] [The] head of Russian space agency Roscosmos, Dmitry Rogozin, said Russia might exit the joint program and instead propose its own lunar orbit space station project.

    Russia’s passive-aggressive reaction to SpaceX may mask a deeper truth [arstechnica.com]

    One of the big questions surrounding the first launch of SpaceX's Crew Dragon spacecraft was how the Russians would react. They have held considerable sway in the International Space Station partnership by controlling access to the orbiting laboratory since the 2011 retirement of NASA's Space Shuttle. So far, the Russian response has been one of throwing small bits of shade here and there but trying not to be too obvious about it.

    [...]

    With this launch, even if it was ordered by NASA, this private company SpaceX has made Roscosmos null and void. They have shown Roscosmos who’s who. Everyone remembers Rogozin’s remarks about trampolines and such, so in fact this isn’t just resentment, it is a constant major headache for Roscosmos. In the first place, the congratulations message was late. Second, Roscosmos sent out two congratulation tweets, one in English, and another completely different text in Russian. So of course, this is a sign of resentment, it is the reaction of an unreliable leader who is lagging behind, so really it was strange they (Roscosmos) reacted at all. Bear in mind Roscosmos in fact never gave their approval for the docking. They voiced a number of technical concerns, perhaps even with some basis, but we saw that the docking was simply brilliant as it took place. So, yes, this was a reaction of someone left behind.

    [...] I would like to point out something else interesting—from one point of view this is a good thing, because we were carrying astronauts, we were getting basically for free $400 million a year at about $90 million per seat for each foreign astronaut. That is more than the entire cost of the rocket and the ship and launch operations taken together. This means as long as we had at least one foreign astronaut on board, we were launching for free. For us this wasn’t just a freebie—it was a narcotic. It allowed us to do absolutely nothing and still earn money. And now, this narcotic is going to be cut off, and we will be forced to do something. Either we will pass into history along with all of our space achievements, like Portugal, with its discovery of America and the voyages of Magellan and so forth, or we will have to seriously do something.

    Roscosmos has stagnated. Dmitry Rogozin has acted like a clown and is probably scared of his dictator-boss. And it's only going to get worse for them once Starship starts flying.

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  • (Score: 1, Troll) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @05:22PM (9 children)

    by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @05:22PM (#982088)

    Yeah, even though one foreign seat would finance the whole launch, it is still cheaper then SpaceX's. Perhaps, Rogozin should offer free tickets to the station as soviets have done.

    --
    "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Monday April 13 2020, @05:32PM

      by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday April 13 2020, @05:32PM (#982092) Journal

      WRONG. Crew Dragon will cost $55 million per astronaut. Boeing's Starliner will cost a little more than Soyuz, at $90 million per astronaut.

      http://web.archive.org/web/20200308145723/https://www.space.com/spacex-boeing-commercial-crew-seat-prices.html [archive.org]

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    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 13 2020, @05:39PM (6 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @05:39PM (#982098) Journal

      Yeah, even though one foreign seat would finance the whole launch, it is still cheaper then SpaceX's.

      One "foreign seat" would pay for two Falcon 9 launches.

      Perhaps, Rogozin should offer free tickets to the station as soviets have done.

      Soviet Russia was dead and gone before ISS was started.

      • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Monday April 13 2020, @06:48PM (3 children)

        by Sulla (5173) on Monday April 13 2020, @06:48PM (#982140) Journal

        Soviet Russia was dead and gone before ISS was started.

        Your point? Just because it would have been impossible for them to follow through doesn't mean they didn't do it.

        If Mickey Mouse can vote, the Soviets can continue to offer free flights to the ISS

        --
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        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 13 2020, @07:32PM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @07:32PM (#982171) Journal

          If Mickey Mouse can vote, the Soviets can continue to offer free flights to the ISS

          I think I'd like to have a little of what Mickey Mouse is smoking.

        • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday April 13 2020, @07:37PM

          by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday April 13 2020, @07:37PM (#982177) Journal

          Roscosmos can't afford Make-A-Wish charity launches. They will launch capitalist pigs, until SpaceX takes that business away from them. ☹

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        • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday April 15 2020, @12:20PM

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 15 2020, @12:20PM (#983014) Journal

          The point he is making is that there are no 'soviets'. There are Russians, but the Soviet Union ceased to exist decades ago. You are using an outdated term in a - presumably - derogatory way for some reason or other.

          The current ruling party in Russia is the United Russia party led, of course, by Putin.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by legont on Monday April 13 2020, @10:36PM (1 child)

        by legont (4179) on Monday April 13 2020, @10:36PM (#982269)

        I do not follow the pricing thing, but according to this https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/11/nasa-report-finds-boeing-seat-prices-are-60-higher-than-spacex/ [arstechnica.com]
        NASA will pay SpaceX $55 per seat assuming all four seats are taken all the time.

        From the same source

        Overall, NASA paid Russia an average cost per seat of $55.4 million for the 70 completed and planned missions from 2006 through 2020. Since 2017, NASA has paid an average of $79.7 million.

        So, yeah, Russians got greedy later but just changed their mind. Regardless, Soyuz is still cheaper, it seems.

        --
        "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.

        • (Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:12AM

          by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:12AM (#982309) Journal

          NASA will pay SpaceX $55 per seat assuming all four seats are taken all the time.

          And that is the plan, except for the Demo-2 flight.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_2#List_of_flights [wikipedia.org]

          Keep in mind that the craft can actually seat up to 7. Soyuz-MS can do up to 3. NASA will carry cargo along with up to 4 astronauts:

          NASA flights to the ISS will only have four astronauts, with the added payload mass and volume used to carry pressurized cargo.

          Possibly tons of cargo. Payload capacity is listed as 6,000 kg to orbit.

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    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:45AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 14 2020, @12:45AM (#982319)

      There is no free launch.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by sorokin on Monday April 13 2020, @06:12PM

    by sorokin (187) on Monday April 13 2020, @06:12PM (#982116)

    Dmitry Rogozin has acted like a clown and is probably scared of his dictator-boss.

    I find it very embarrassing every time Rogozin open his mouth and speak. I'm pretty sure many other (majority?) Russians think the same. Sadly, I have to agree with you, he acts like a clown. What is worse — he knows nothing about the industry he is a head of. He was graduated as a journalists and whole his career he was a politician.

    I remember everybody were very puzzled when Putin appointed Rogozin to be a head of Roskosmos. But should anyone be surprised when the biggest oil company in the country is run by a philologist?

  • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Monday April 13 2020, @06:45PM (3 children)

    by Sulla (5173) on Monday April 13 2020, @06:45PM (#982137) Journal

    Moscow may abandon a project to build a space station in lunar orbit in partnership with U.S. space agency NASA because it does not want a "second fiddle role," a Russian official said on Saturday.

            [...] [The] head of Russian space agency Roscosmos, Dmitry Rogozin, said Russia might exit the joint program and instead propose its own lunar orbit space station project.

    Was Russia only willing to participate in this lunar space station because they thought it would be their rockets being used? Sounds like "illegal" government funding to keep Roscosmos alive.

    --
    Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam

    • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday April 13 2020, @07:28PM

      by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Monday April 13 2020, @07:28PM (#982169) Journal

      Dmitry Rogozin, said Russia might exit the joint program and instead propose its own lunar orbit space station project.

      This part is a Rogozin fever dream. It would not materialize.

      The Lunar Gateway has been in flux anyway, although it is still on the agenda and Europe, Japan, and Canada are officially on board.

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    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday April 13 2020, @07:52PM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday April 13 2020, @07:52PM (#982191) Journal

      Sounds like "illegal" government funding to keep Roscosmos alive.

      Not to mention 25 years of "illegal" government funding via the ISS to said Russian space program.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @09:25PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 13 2020, @09:25PM (#982230)

      One of the goals of the ISS was for the US to keep the Russian space industry subsidized so that all their rocket engineers wouldn't go make ballistic missiles, so they're kind of hoping for a repeat here.