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COVID-19 Has Blown Away the Myth About 'First' and 'Third' World Competence:
One of the planet's – and Africa's – deepest prejudices is being demolished by the way countries handle COVID-19.
For as long as any of us remember, everyone "knew" that "First World" countries – in effect, Western Europe and North America – were much better at providing their citizens with a good life than the poor and incapable states of the "Third World". "First World" has become shorthand for competence, sophistication and the highest political and economic standards.
[...] So we should have expected the state-of-the-art health systems of the "First World", spurred on by their aware and empowered citizens, to handle COVID-19 with relative ease, leaving the rest of the planet to endure the horror of buckling health systems and mass graves.
We have seen precisely the opposite.
[...] [Britain and the US] have ignored the threat. When they were forced to act, they sent mixed signals to citizens which encouraged many to act in ways which spread the infection. Neither did anything like the testing needed to control the virus. Both failed to equip their hospitals and health workers with the equipment they needed, triggering many avoidable deaths.
The failure was political. The US is the only rich country with no national health system. An attempt by former president Barack Obama to extend affordable care was watered down by right-wing resistance, then further gutted by the current president and his party. Britain's much-loved National Health Service has been weakened by spending cuts. Both governments failed to fight the virus in time because they had other priorities.
And yet, in Britain, the government's popularity ratings are sky high and it is expected to win the next election comfortably. The US president is behind in the polls but the contest is close enough to make his re-election a real possibility. Can there be anything more typically "Third World" than citizens supporting a government whose actions cost thousands of lives?
(Score: 3, Disagree) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday May 18 2020, @10:43AM (68 children)
What complete and utter political horse shit.
A) Government-provided healthcare is not now and never has been a hallmark of first-world countries. It is in fact an idea that first-world countries picked up from second-world countries.
B) Government-provided healthcare is not in any way a necessary component of "a good life".
C) Government-provided healthcare has not done a damned bit better at dealing with covid-19.
D) When there is a shiny, new virus with no cure and precious little you can do in the way of treatment aside from fifty plus year old tech, there's no difference between a nation on the cutting edge of medicine and one fifty years behind.
E) When you're losing your shit over a highly contagious but very rarely fatal virus that does in fact confer a respectable degree of lasting immunity, you're a hysterical idiot and your opinion holds negative value.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by c0lo on Monday May 18 2020, @10:56AM (4 children)
Your life is going to shit again, and again you're spreading your shit here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday May 18 2020, @10:58AM (3 children)
My life is in fact fantastic. That just chaps your ass because your ideals have caused your life to suck.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Touché) by c0lo on Monday May 18 2020, @11:00AM
Agreed. Under the "pertaining to fantasy" meaning.
Others would call it self-delusion, but this imply a certain amount of honesty
(large grin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @02:30PM (1 child)
You sure sound like the epitome of happiness... rage post much? Again? Every day?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Tuesday May 19 2020, @06:24AM
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @12:15PM (8 children)
You missed another key flaw in this claim: None of the first-world countries have health care systems that have collapsed, and they don't have "mass graves." The media keeps trying to - or was for a while - drum up hysteria about mass graves in New York, but it's actually just the usual mass grave where they bury unclaimed bodies, because some of the people that died were indigent. Meanwhile, Yemen [apnews.com] and Bangladesh [dw.com] are in tough shape. This is a tragedy, but the article is what's claiming they're doing great.
(Score: 4, Informative) by MostCynical on Monday May 18 2020, @12:49PM (7 children)
From Table 31a : Death Summary Information by Race/Ethnicity New York State - 2015 [ny.gov] 153,623 died that year, which is~ 421 deaths per day.
Last month, New York State peaked at over 800 Covid deaths per day [msn.com], with over 500 a day dying from Covid-19 in New York City [nyc.gov]
Note, others were also dying, of other causes.
Hardly 'just the usual'..
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @06:43PM (6 children)
The numbers are probably true, but they don't address the claim being made. This is a non sequitur.
None of those people were buried in mass graves, unless their bodies went unclaimed, as per usual procedures.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Monday May 18 2020, @11:08PM (5 children)
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mass-graves-covid-19-deaths/ [snopes.com]
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday May 19 2020, @10:52AM (4 children)
Um, your citation said exactly what AC just told you.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Tuesday May 19 2020, @11:30AM (3 children)
No: usual: 25 a week; April: 25 per day.
not "usual"
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday May 19 2020, @11:45AM (2 children)
Yes, usual. Not burying people who've no discernible next of kin and have not made other arrangements in their own grave is business as usual for up there. Numbers are irrelevant to the point and simply an attempt to move the goalposts to keep from losing an argument.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Tuesday May 19 2020, @12:05PM (1 child)
here is the only "attempt to move the goalposts":
there have been far more mass graves being dug
there have been far more dying than normal
This is not 'usual'.
I have not suggested those being buried aren't the same category as usual (unclaimed dead).
My point, counter to those suggesting "people die, get buried, nothing unusual here" is that ~7 times as many have been ending up in these graves.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday May 19 2020, @12:29PM
Still trying? No. Context matters and you don't get to change it to win.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday May 18 2020, @01:25PM (5 children)
Yeah, look at all those third-world shitholes like Denmark and Norway and Finland. Government-payer healthcare is the fucking *worst.* How awful. Go get the 'rona and own some libs! I dare you!
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 5, Informative) by Pav on Monday May 18 2020, @01:57PM (4 children)
But but... you forgot Sweden and its recently privatised healthcare. It has been WONDERFUL! The righties were ecstatic [theguardian.com]. It's a pity costs then rose to be amongst the highest, and heathcare beds per 1000 fell to being the second lowest (the UKs NHS coming dead last) in Western Europe. And the scandals... thousands of healthcare workers sacked, women being freighted to Finland just so they had a bed to give birth in, aged care facilities not changing adult daipers so they could make some extra coin... and that was BEFORE the pandemic. Bernie Sanders' rhetoric definitely needs an update. If they couldn't afford adult daipers OF COURSE the PPE was inadequate, and aged care faciliies became major epicentres. Healthcare worker shortages became even worse in Swedish lapland when the rest of Scandinavia walled off Sweden, and Finland closed its border so workers on the other side couldn't commute to hospitals in Sweden.
And the Swedes have been gaslit by both government and media. They've been saying good Swedes can do all that social distancing, PPE etc... organically. Therefore if things go bad it's because of bad Swedes and most particularly recent immigrants. Also, good Swedes don't complain, so if you hear anything it's those bad unSwedish people. And many Swedes seem to have taken this to heart and are pushing this view online. To be fair Swedes aren't as used to media bullshit... they had Aftonbladet (their "Daily Mail") majority owned by the unions until about 12 years ago, so there were genuine arguments from the working side of politics in national discussions. No longer.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @02:34PM (1 child)
Why do you hate Sweden?
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @03:38PM
Rejected by Swedish Bikini Team.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday May 18 2020, @09:22PM
If you mean to imply "shitrag" by the Daily Fail reference, then "The Mirror" would have been a better example to give, as it was always the left-leaning paper for the workers/unions (no matter if behind the scenes it was as top-heavily corporate and corrupt as any other).
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by dry on Tuesday May 19 2020, @06:03AM
Here in Canada, it has been the private assisted living places that have had the brunt of deaths. A lot has been exposed about these for profit places, ranging from the shitty way they treat their workers to the shitty way they treat the residents. Whether anything changes long term remains to be seen as there are always right wingers claiming private is always better.
The problem is running a decent society is expensive and so many people don't want to pay for it and even if the country is okay with paying, the global competition makes it hard.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday May 18 2020, @01:32PM (26 children)
Yeah yeah, "who gives a f*ck about boomers" and all that, but airbourne ebola (or equivalent) is coming. Enjoy stewing in the ideology of doing nothing, and simply managing your own societies decline. Call me insane, but I'm happy to live somewhere (Australia) that has some ability to actually grapple with a pandemic.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 18 2020, @01:39PM (25 children)
Hold on. Weren't you the ones sobbing a couple months ago how bush fires caused by runaway climate change had destroyed Australia? You are talking about that Australia, aren't you? Failure to clear brush and fight fires is not laudable.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday May 18 2020, @02:16PM (7 children)
I'm not saying Australia is perfect, and our government certainly sucks. The undeniably miserable bushfire response made our prime ministers grip on power somewhat shakey, so that played some part in him taking this pandemic more seriously... though he still managed to blunder a couple of times eg. allowing flights of young partiers from Italy and expecting them to self isolate. Still, he allowed actual experts to mostly control the response, and we've got a heathcare system leagues better than the US... and somewhat better than europes worst (ie. Sweden and the UK).
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 18 2020, @03:06PM (4 children)
I am not panning Australia. It's a lovely country with lovely people. (It has not been very nice to the aborigines, but as an American I really can't talk.)
My larger point is that nobody knows what the right answer is with this thing. The WHO has alternately praised China and Sweden for their approaches, and held them up as models for the rest of the world. But Sweden and China took opposite tacks so the WHO is really talking out of both sides of its mouth. There's another question, too, implicit in this matter: if Trump did the most amazing job in the world, and managed the largest number of infected to the lowest number of deaths, would anybody who hates him give him credit, or would they find some other thing to criticize him on or give the credit to somebody else? Given what has gone on the past 3 years, I say that for those that hate him, Trump can do nothing right. The other side of the coin is those who love Trump and will never say anything against him.
Generally, I think jingoism is a bad habit all of us should curb.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday May 18 2020, @03:36PM
On US politics I haven't found a trustworthy mainstream source. I like the "Rising" show on YouTube from "The Hill" and the sarcastically named "Useful Idiots" show from "Rolling Stone"... and I can listen to them while doing other stuff unlike text sources. Granted, they're somewhat fringe... but they criticise and (much less regularly) praise both sides.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Barenflimski on Monday May 18 2020, @04:31PM (1 child)
From my experience people will continue to hate the guy and anything that comes out of his mouth.
I was talking to a very neighbor of mine over the weekend. She can't stand Trump and is much like anyone else I talk to that simply can't stand anything the guy says or does. I said to her, "It seems to me that another issue with this COVID response is that even when the president rambles and says something that is correct people simply go to, 'If he said it, I'm against it.'" She said to me, "Yes, I am doing that for good or bad. I just simply can't stand the stuff that comes out of his mouth most of the time and I'm not going to parse any of it anymore."
He has turned vast amounts of people off to the point where they simply won't entertain anything that he puts in front of them as he's worn them out. We are seeing this play out in the response to the virus along political lines. It puts all of our politicians in a tough situation. Do something that the president promotes and you may be cast as a Trump supporter. Do something that he doesn't promote and you may be cast as being woke.
Unfortunately for the rest of us this political nonsense affects us as our politicians are more worried about the correct political response instead of the smart response.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday May 19 2020, @06:30AM
(Score: 3, Informative) by dry on Tuesday May 19 2020, @06:18AM
Here in Canada, actually Ontario, we have Doug Ford, was he hated, for many of the same reasons as Trump. While he started out dismissing the pandemic, telling people not to worry and go party, he quickly turned around and even the extreme left has praised his leadership during the crisis. This includes following scientific advice, calling the protesters out as hooligans and so on. I'm sure once this is over he'll go back to his old self but who knows. Right now his popularity has gone from the low 20's IIRC to the high 80's.
If he can do it, so could Trump. The key is allowing the experts to lead while giving them support and handling the economic issues. Here in BC, it is the head of health, a civil servant, who gives the daily updates, with the Minister of Health doing introductions and little else and the Premier only showing up occasionally to deal with economic matters. I believe it is similar in all Provinces and all our governments have had a huge uptick in popularity. Of course that is likely to vanish once this is over.
Meanwhile Trump has been more of a hindrance then a help, doesn't know when to step back and support the experts, steadily wishy washy and seems intend on doing everything opposite what a good leader should do. The weird thing is how his cult worships everything he says, even when he says the opposite 5 minutes later. It's scary that people can be so deranged. Holding your nose and voting for the lesser evil is one thing, worshiping the evil because he's our evil is another.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday May 18 2020, @09:26PM (1 child)
You too, eh? Estonia feels your pain.
Right, I'll go and crack open a brilliant local beer brewed by a fantastic Australian brewer who now lives here!
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 19 2020, @12:32PM
Those Estonians flying from Italy, mostly went through Riga airport, and overland from there, didn't they? Add to that Latvians doing same, add to that the absence of lockdown in Latvia, look at the statistics, compare with Estonia. Try explaining the difference.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday May 18 2020, @02:17PM (8 children)
You're an idiot if you imagine you can know better from the distance what the conditions were here.
At least, have the decency and inform yourself however minimally [wikipedia.org]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 18 2020, @02:56PM (4 children)
You're the idiot if you cannot get that my point was he was praising how great Australia is at managing its affairs after complaining a couple months ago how Australia is ruined because of brush fires. (Sorry, I do not mean to call you an idiot because I know you are not one, but you did call me one)
See, I think it's less deterministic. Countries do some things well, and other things poorly. Sometimes the strategies they choose ultimately work, and are praised afterward; sometimes the strategies they choose fail, and are panned afterward as ridiculous or evil or worse. Some countries choose better across many areas over time, and thrive, others fail at most and decline. Some countries that fare well for a time lose that Eye of the Tiger and disappear. Others hit their stride and succeed.
It's all armchair quarterbacking, if we're honest.
But, yeah, I'm not impressed with brush fires because I grew up in the Rockies which have "devastating," "catastrophic," "worst fire season EVAR!!!" forest fires every summer. BFD. You shrug and get on with life. It's the same as a Texan scoffing at New Yorkers who got their panties in a bunch over the minor Hurricane Sandy. Or like Australians listening to people screaming about black widow spiders, or something.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday May 18 2020, @03:15PM (3 children)
I did it because you tabled a patently false claim as the main cause for 2019/2020 megablazes - govt or not, nothing you can do to clean that bush after 3 years+ of draught and when the fire season starts 5 months in advance of the usual (June instead of October).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 18 2020, @03:27PM (2 children)
And he tabled a patently false claim that the government is to blame (or praise) for how the coronavirus has spread and affected regions around the world. But you want to take the one, but not the other.
In fact I don't blame Australia for how bad its brush fires were. They were worse than authorities there were prepared for. Yes, they could have said, "gosh, we're in a multi-year drought and could be looking at a really bad fire season, so we better triple our budgets for fire-fighting in preparation." But that's not how governments work in the real world. Occasionally they can prepare well, but mostly they're reactive. In Western America there are frequent droughts, so they're more prepared to handle them. It's not because they're more special or smarter than Australia is, but because it's within the range of what they expect and are used to it.
Is that a shocking or particularly controversial thing to say?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday May 18 2020, @03:35PM (1 child)
Come on. You know well the handling of corona situation in US has been so sub-optimal it isn't very hard to do much better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday May 19 2020, @06:51AM
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday May 19 2020, @06:42AM (2 children)
Well, how much further away was Phoenix666 than you? I don't see how living in a country means you know anything at all about their wildfire policy, to name an obvious example. Meanwhile, one can google [soylentnews.org] for said policy and get a better idea in a few minutes - assuming they can read English, no matter where in the world they happen to live.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 19 2020, @12:57PM (1 child)
People who live in New York are utterly ignorant about how to farm, ranch, log, make anything, get their hands dirty, and so on. But they are sure they know everything about what the rest of the country needs.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday May 19 2020, @06:27PM
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @02:26PM (7 children)
Lol, your swing away from the DNC led straight into the stupid bush.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 18 2020, @03:09PM (6 children)
Is it that you have difficulty with prose in English? Did you get thrown out of debate club? Did you never learn to type properly because your first device was a phone you had to use abbreviations on?
It's marvelous to hear such from an AC that can't reason, form complex thoughts, or even muster the gumption to use a handle.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday May 18 2020, @03:26PM (5 children)
I believe he is mocking the pendulum politics, where angry people swing from one crooked party to the other and back, instead of looking for something else to break the circle. It is a chronic issue that very few people want to address
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @04:36PM (4 children)
Exactly, P666 claims he worked for the Clinton campaign, became a disaffected Democrat and now spouts rightwing talking points. Maybe it just highlights how party affiliation is a very rough guide for someone's true opinions.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday May 19 2020, @06:54AM
Like what? I doubt US rightwingers are defending the handling of covid by comparing it to Australian brushfires.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 19 2020, @12:38PM (2 children)
I worked for the Clinton Foundation, not the Clinton campaign. I have been a progressive all my life. I first joined the Green Party; they turned proto-Woke, so I left and became a Democrat. When the Clintons rigged the 2016 primary against Bernie, I left that party. I am not affiliated with any party now.
Having had a window right into the heart of the Democratic Party, and indeed right into the heart of wealth and power in the world, I see things much differently now. I can discern things I couldn't before. For example, you, dear AC, carry the miasma of government shill all around you. Do the occasional pats they give you on the head fulfill you as much as they used to when you were fresh out of school? Or are you starting to notice that carrying their water doesn't gain you anything, and you're growing ever more concerned and possibly upset at that thought?
I call things the way I see them, without script. If that seems "right wing" to you, it's only because you've fallen off the leftward edge of the universe and have lost all sense of perspective.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 19 2020, @09:58PM (1 child)
Noice overton shoving yer doing, keep it up! Soon we'll all get to enjoy the freedom of the post-apocalypse. You claim progressive stances, but your use of "woke" and the rest of the opinions you have are definitely rightwing to libertarian. Maybe you'ee just what passes for progressive as an older east coast resident, maybe you're just another fake account astroturfing US voters.
I know I'm real, and all I know about you is that your opinions don't match claimed political leanings. The most effective propaganda comes from users with a "reputation." My AC shitposting doesn't do anyone much good unless they're trying to get a better perspective on SN users.
I'll offer an apology for calling you rightwing. You are closer to libertarian than the religious noids.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 20 2020, @12:20PM
Principles exist in a three dimensional space, but you are a two dimensional being.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Monday May 18 2020, @02:39PM (18 children)
List of countries I'd consider relocating the whole family from the US to (without having millions to spend, with millions you just buy a Caribbean island...):
New Zealand, Canada, England, Australia, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, Costa Rica, Austria, Finland...
What do all those countries have in common? I'd call that a hallmark of first-world countries.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 18 2020, @03:11PM (7 children)
You can relocate to most of those right now, JoeMerchant. Except New Zealand, which requires you to invest $250K of your own money there before they'll let you in. But Americans relocate to other countries all the time, and you can too if that's what you want.
Don't put up with America if you hate it. Life's too short. Go and be happy.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday May 18 2020, @03:33PM (6 children)
When we were living in KKK country (central Florida), we took a long hard look at relocation - globally. We actually settled on the Hilo-Puna region of Hawaii as a destination to get away from the redneck bullshit, without the hassle of international immigration. Thing is, my wife and I were born in Florida, lived here 50+ years now, and that carries a certain amount of "cultural acceptance," even in KKK country. Employment abroad is challenging, as is services for our kids with Autism. We finally decided to move to a bigger city near the coast, got away from the KKK and their shitty attitude toward disabled services in the schools - though we do still see pickup trucks proudly flying 8' rebel flags sometimes.
Hilo has its own issues - not too different from the West Coast Florida I grew up in - massive growth, and I know what my family thought about the newcomers while that was going on - not too anxious to become "one of those people." It is affordable, and with the right attitude much more accepting of all people as human beings than Florida is. We have close-ish friends who have lived in Hilo/Puna/Central Florida back and forth for the last 20 years, but the job in the bigger Florida city presented itself first...
There's some family in Costa Rica, it's tempting - had a shaky/shady job offer to live in a commune on a beach there once... the language would be a lifelong challenge.
New Zealand is tempting, but I feel like the native issues in Puna would only be bigger with the Maori - and if I'm moving to NZ I'll probably end up in Maori heavy country. I'd treat them with respect, but I'm not sure our pale skin and freckles would get that respect back. NZ$250K isn't an issue - we'd want a house that cost at least that.
There's an acre of land about 200 meters from the beach just outside Darwin that's hella cheap and tempting... and if we get serious about living on a boat, Port Lincoln is also something to check out. We're not stuck here, but there is something to be said for helping your children to build long term relationships in the community.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by PocketSizeSUn on Monday May 18 2020, @08:26PM (3 children)
On the one hand Pune doesn't require you to immigrate, which I understand is not so easy for an American moving to NZ. Just what I have been told but I never looked into it.
On the other hand Pune is a good fit for some, hippie types and farmers can do well there. You seem to have experience in Pune however the flew vs brew is still a non-trivial cultural shift for most ha'ole trying to make a home there. I have heard of quite a few ha'ole have difficulty in Pune. Also the serious Meth problems on the south kona side are bit disturbing. I haven't been back since kapohoe went under lava.
I have not been to NZ but I know people from there and I have never heard of any Maori issues.
I looked at Costa Rica it is not a place I would consider without knowing the language well and land ownership can be a bit dicey.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday May 18 2020, @09:00PM (2 children)
We've already been burned by Costa Rican laws once, ignorant on our part but we invested in a company with an agreement written in English, therefore unenforceable in the courts that have jurisdiction... Not a reason to stay away, and the "burn" cost less than a trip down there and back - cheap education overall. Still, our Spanish would always be 2nd class, I'm sure. Family connections might compensate, might not - hard to guess the future.
Our friend on the Big Island put us in touch with some locals that we talked with on the phone and e-mailed a bit (people from his church) - they were all really really nice. We had pretty well settled on upper HPP as the place we wanted to move to, but reliable sustaining income was a major concern, and once I found a good job only 75 miles from where we were, what the hell - much easier move, and it was well worth it. Of course there are horror stories out of Puna, cars being stolen and police won't go look for them in "native land", etc. but to hear our ex-army Colonel tell about it: you respect them, they respect you - mostly.
What I heard about the Maori in the north end of North Island reminded me of 1970s Florida - people getting beat up at the beach over turf wars that basically break down on racial lines, that sort of stuff - also lots of the indie film being made about NZ is emphasizing the raw deal that the Maori got and how that has led to them having similar issues as the North American natives...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by pdfernhout on Tuesday May 19 2020, @01:35AM (1 child)
Rupert may have been wrong about peak oil but he got something right in this essay (after bitter experience trying to move to Venezuela in 2006) about the importance of community/tribe/connectedness:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161021081420/http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110706_mcr_evolution.shtml [archive.org]
"Living in Venezuela has been an amazing, brutal, and illuminating lesson. It is a truly alien culture that I find simultaneously beautiful, hard, giving, unfamiliar, uncomfortable and definitely self-protecting to the extreme. That is why I am confident that Venezuela, and most of Latin America, will survive the coming crash of Peak Oil better than any other region of the world. I believe it is already starting to protect itself. It doesn’t need me or any outsider to survive. But as a general rule, only those who are native here will be protected by its blessings. ...
The important distinctions about adaptivity are not racial at all. US citizens come in all colors. American culture is the water they have swum in since birth. A native US citizen of Latin descent who did not (or even did) speak Spanish would probably feel almost as out of place here as I do. They would look the same but not feel the same. And when it came time to deal collectively with a rapidly changing world, a world in turmoil, a native-born American’s inbred decades of “instinctive” survival skills might not harmonize with the skills used by those around him.
Another one of my trademarked lines is that Post Peak survival is not a matter of individual survival or national survival. It is a matter of cooperative, community survival. If one is not a fully integrated member of a community when the challenges come, one might hinder the effectiveness of the entire community which has unspoken and often consciously unrecognized ways of adapting. As stresses increase, the gauntlets required to gain acceptance in strange places will only get tougher. Diversity will become more, rather than less, rigid and enforced.
As energy shortages and blackouts arrive; as food shortages grow worse; as droughts expand and proliferate; as icecaps melt, as restless, cold and hungry populations start looking for other places to go; minute cultural and racial differences will trigger progressively more abrupt reactions, not unlike a stressed out and ill human body will react more violently to things that otherwise would never reach conscious thought.
Start building your lifeboats where you are now. I can see that the lessons I have learned here are important whether you are thinking of moving from city to countryside, state to state, or nation to nation. Whatever shortcomings you may think exist where you live are far outnumbered by the advantages you have where you are a part of an existing ecosystem that you know and which knows you.
If the time comes when it is necessary to leave that community you will be better off moving with your tribe rather than moving alone."
The biggest challenge of the 21st century: the irony of technologies of abundance used by scarcity-minded people.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Tuesday May 19 2020, @05:48AM
I imagine the "former writer" hasn't come even close to having a reason to be concerned for his safety in the subsequent 14 years. Meanwhile, Venezuela has a murder rate of 81 per 100k people [reuters.com] in 2018.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 20 2020, @12:34PM (1 child)
There's a lot of wisdom in what you're saying: there's always a fly in the ointment.
Still, Costa Rica has a high standard of living and a stable government. So what if you're not going to be writing Nobel prize winning literature in Spanish? You just need to be able to get by. My father-in-law immigrated from Korea 50 years ago but still only speaks pidgin English; he owned his own business and bought property and raised a family just fine.
New Zealand is a beautiful country with friendly people (if they'll let you in). The Maori are fine. They retain their culture in modernity and thanks to the Treaty of Waitangi have fared much better than natives in almost any country where Europeans arrived. The only reason not to live in NZ is if you have an irrational fear of sheep.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday May 20 2020, @12:59PM
Are sheep really an issue north of Auckland? Because that's where I would see myself settling most comfortably... Agreed that the Maori stood up to the Euro-imperialists better than any other islanders, including Hawaiians (who did pretty well themselves...), but they still got a pretty shitty deal - reminds me of Israel, white people on the beaches and more indigenous brown people shoved back inland.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday May 18 2020, @09:31PM (9 children)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday May 18 2020, @10:33PM (8 children)
Netherlands, Denmark? Maybe a little oil, not much gold at all.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday May 18 2020, @11:41PM (7 children)
The fact yoju only found one that wasn't a good fit compliments my astuteness as much as yours.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:42AM (6 children)
Well, the list was selected based on places I've semi-seriously considered moving the family and come back with a positive: yes, I see how that holds the _possibility_ of a better life than what we have here. None are a guarantee, and in some the possibility hovers somewhere around the 50% mark - but... my criteria had nothing to do with oil or gold. However, the correlation is probably not a coincidence - wealthy countries, whether by oil or gold or any other source, at least have the capacity to do good things for their citizens and residents: ergo first world.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday May 19 2020, @03:33PM (5 children)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday May 19 2020, @04:23PM (4 children)
I'll take a populist right-wing undercurrent over a breaking tsunami of ignorance and fear driven conservative corporate welfare anyday, but... the bird in the hand is worth 10 that look better in the bush.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 20 2020, @12:41PM (3 children)
As a foreigner you are going to be instantly disenfranchised no matter what. Politics will become a game you no longer play because nobody will let you. So that shouldn't be a major factor in your decision to relocate. Relative freedom and overall stability are more important.
No matter what, though, six months in you will come to hate any place because culture shock always catches up to you.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday May 20 2020, @01:06PM
When we moved from Miami to Houston we loved the culture shift, it was the shitty air quality that got us to leave as soon as my 2 year obligation was up.
Whether you vote or not, politics is a game that plays you. Any place I would considering moving has enough freedom of speech that even the disenfranchised can make about as much difference "being heard" as the voters. I don't dislike the abstract concept of public service, in an alternate universe-timeline (like the fantasy land portrayed in Madam Secretary/President) I could imagine myself fulfilled by life as a politico... in this reality, I couldn't run for the local schoolboard without fear of myself going postal on the establishment if I had to deal with their hypocrisy in close quarters on a regular basis.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday May 21 2020, @07:54AM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday May 21 2020, @09:36AM
So, you never experienced culture shock?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Informative) by HiThere on Monday May 18 2020, @03:59PM
Sorry, government provided health care programs originated in Bismark's Germany. So did several other "socialist" programs designed to ensure a healthy populace. (Bismark wanted healthy armies.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Monday May 18 2020, @04:46PM
Germany already had it at the end of the 19th century, before there even was a "2nd world".
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.