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posted by Fnord666 on Wednesday May 27 2020, @12:31PM   Printer-friendly
from the fact-checking dept.

Twitter adds label to Trump's misleading tweets about mail-in ballots:

Twitter said Tuesday that it added a label to President Donald Trump's tweets for containing "potentially misleading information about voting processes," a rare move that shows the social media company is taking a tougher stance against misinformation.

It's the first time that Twitter has displayed a label on Trump's tweets.

On Tuesday, Trump tweeted that "There is NO WAY (ZERO!) that Mail-in-Ballots will be anything less than substantially fraudulent," a claim that has been debunked by fact-checkers and news organizations. He continues his remarks in another tweet, stating that it will be a "Rigged election."

A label appears under both tweets that states "Get the facts about mail-in ballots." Clicking on the warning notice directs users to a page that states that fact-checkers say there isn't any evidence that mail-in ballots are linked to voter fraud. Trump also falsely states in the tweets that California will send mail-in ballots to "anyone living in the state, no matter who they are or how they got there" when only registered voters will receive ballots. States such as Oregon, Utah and Washington have long conducted elections by mail only, while states such as Nebraska allow any voter to request a ballot and vote by mail without having to provide a reason.

A Twitter spokeswoman said in a statement that the decision is in line with how the company approaches misinformation on its site, which includes adding warning notices and labels depending on the likelihood and severity of harm a tweet could cause.

Twitter's actions against Trump's tweets will also likely increase tensions between the company and conservative users, who allege that the social network suppresses their speech. Twitter has repeatedly denied those allegations. Earlier this month, Trump tweeted that the "Radical Left" is in control of Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Google and said his administration is working on a solution.

In two tweets, Trump accused Twitter of interfering in the 2020 US presidential election.

"Twitter is completely stifling FREE SPEECH, and I, as President, will not allow it to happen!," he tweeted.

Also at BBC News, Ars Technica, MIT Technology Review


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  • (Score: 1, Troll) by hemocyanin on Wednesday May 27 2020, @03:46PM (67 children)

    by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @03:46PM (#999709) Journal

    In today's world, if you contradict a Democrat you are liar. If you distrust the FBI, NSA, CIA -- you are a liar.

    This isn't fact checking. It's naked propaganda.

    Starting Score:    1  point
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       Flamebait=1, Troll=5, Insightful=3, Interesting=1, Informative=1, Touché=1, Total=12
    Extra 'Troll' Modifier   0  

    Total Score:   1  
  • (Score: 4, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 27 2020, @03:54PM (37 children)

    by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @03:54PM (#999720) Journal

    Nope. You're a liar when you knowingly conflate a single anecdote as evidence of "significant" fraud, though.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:15PM (32 children)

      by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:15PM (#999744) Journal

      You really think this is the only example? Maybe you do, but there's a reason that the legacy media is continuing to bleed trust -- it is obviously partisan, which is fine in itself -- people like reading opinion pieces -- but what peeves people is opinion dressed as objective fact. As the media continues this game, it is inevitable that more and more people will run across a story presented as fact which, either through personal knowledge or by checking sources independently, is revealed as propaganda. From there it's a spiral into a default skeptical reaction rather than a default trusting reaction. Even you might find yourself there someday.

      • (Score: 5, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:39PM (5 children)

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:39PM (#999756) Journal

        You really think this is the only example?

        It's the only one that was provided. How about you provide, say, ten more then we can talk about trends.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Bot on Wednesday May 27 2020, @10:47PM (3 children)

          by Bot (3902) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @10:47PM (#999958) Journal

          Trend, republican states have less deaths, in absolute and relative terms, than democrat states. Yet Trump is the crazy one and dems are the saviors. Fact check this.

          --
          Account abandoned.
          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Pslytely Psycho on Wednesday May 27 2020, @11:30PM (2 children)

            by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @11:30PM (#999971)

            Less population, less dense population, lack of testing (not testing the dead) way underfunded health care. Many do have elevated death tolls this year. I would suspect undercounts due to lack of testing supplies, underfunding and possibly a political desire to undercount.

            And yes, Trump is out of his fucking mind. No one sane lies that often, especially on things where the truth would of served him better.

            But Dems are not saviors.
            Perhaps marginally more sane...but savior is a word I hear much more from the right as a political weapon. You know, like how you just falsely used it or like socialism/communism (the right never learned their definitions and confuse them with regularity) religious rights (translation: Christian rights...why should they have more rights than I? Dammit, I want Atheist rights!) etc, etc....yeah weaponized words to cover ineffective, discriminatory policies or even trying to overturn that which they themselves created or approved (EPA) in earlier, saner times.

            You really are a bot, in drastic need of logic circuits.

            --
            Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
            • (Score: 2) by Bot on Thursday May 28 2020, @08:26AM (1 child)

              by Bot (3902) on Thursday May 28 2020, @08:26AM (#1000091) Journal

              Less population is irrelevant when we are speaking about percentage. Less dense population is irrelevant when lockdown is in effect, unless the lockdown itself is irrelevant, in which case having enforced it is a disaster.

              I am not saying dems are the saviours, the mainstream says that. So basically you agree with everything I said.

              --
              Account abandoned.
              • (Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Thursday May 28 2020, @10:02AM

                by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Thursday May 28 2020, @10:02AM (#1000113)

                Agreeing with a portion is not the equivalent of agreeing in total. (As a left-leaning centrist, I don't agree in total with either side.)

                And less population and density is by far not irrelevant. The horrid under funding of our medical system is a disaster. Cutting the office responsible for pandemic preparation in 2017 exacerbated the current problems.

                Saying the D's are saviors is your biased interpretation of the mainstream.

                And Trump is still the Lie-on king.

                Good day to you, it's bar-b-que time! (what do bots bar-b-que? motor oil soaked circuit boards?)

                --
                Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
        • (Score: 5, Informative) by Pslytely Psycho on Wednesday May 27 2020, @11:06PM

          by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @11:06PM (#999961)

          Ok, here's a whole list of voter fraud cases provided by your friend and mine, The Heritage Foundation. I only researched for the most part larger or interesting sounding cases as there is no partisan filter and frequently no mention of party affiliation. There are far too many to research all of them, unless your a political addict or psychotic. So chance played a roll in what I found.

          https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=All&year=&case_type=All&fraud_type=All [heritage.org]

          Look at that! There's one or two every year in many states of individuals committing voter fraud! Taken all together, they might sway a dog catchers election in a small town!!!!

          (changes filters to something with the potential of actual damage--criminal conviction plus altering the vote count)

          https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=All&year=&case_type=24487&fraud_type=24511 [heritage.org]

          And look at those numbers! FOUR! Democracy is doomed! Two were GOP defrauding the election, one was someone stealing an unsealed ballot box, but didn't get to the stage of changing ballots so political affiliation unknown and one was for a non-partisan private homeowners' association election.

          (changes filters to something with the potential of actual damage--criminal conviction plus fraudulent use of absentee ballots)

          https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=All&year=&case_type=24487&fraud_type=24489 [heritage.org]

          Hmmm, very interesting results...You have to look up each case individually as they don't provide a partisan filter, but I looked up around twenty of the ones involving more that twenty or thirty ballots (that would only matter in the smallest of elections generally), and although most of the largest were GOP defrauding elections in places like S.C. or Alabama, many were non-partisan small town elections committed by businessmen looking for political favor and not party ideologies. Gee, businessmen are crooks? Who knew? A smattering of independent and DNC involved ones as well, but the minority OF THE ONES I RESEARCHED....

          (changes filters to something with the potential of actual damage-OK, not actual damage, but one certain factions love to tout as the worst of the worst-criminal conviction plus impersonation fraud at the polls)

          https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=All&year=&case_type=24487&fraud_type=24493 [heritage.org]

          Spouses telling other spouse how to vote at poll, people voting in place of relatives, one or two of people voting for three or more relatives.....small potatoes and none large enough to matter as far as I could tell.

          Now I did NOT look up each and every case in these lists, (I bar-b-q'ing Buffalo burgers later, it's beautiful outside and I don't want to waste all of it looking up stupid shit!) just some of the largest ones which since few stated any political bias in the descriptions means it's POSSIBLE I just stumbled upon more GOP and non-partisan "get my buddy elected so I get favor" fraud than DNC fraud.

          There are also a lot of filters I didn't use, buying votes, illegal assistance, illegal registration and a few others. For example overturned elections were mostly Judicial Findings where handfuls of votes that were cast outside of districts, late absentee votes that were counted when they shouldn't of been, recounts and exactly four criminal cases where I did find two DNC, one GOP (this one involves a difficult to find information on the parties involved, and may actually be more of a personal gain than partisan) and one personal interest case involving taxation.

          All of these cases are small, none seem larger than a regional or local problem and don't involve a national election, and even if they did their size would be insignificant to change the outcome. So screaming voter fraud at the top of their lungs seems at every damned election (until they win, then it evaporates...hmmmm) more of a preemptive excuse for losing an election than anything grounded in facts.

          But then again, the one that yells the loudest about others crimes, is frequently only try to distract attention from their own.

          --
          Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @05:17PM (16 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @05:17PM (#999776)

        That is only because Republicans have become so extremely rightwing that even lite conservativism like CNN etc. look partisan to you. As a liberal I can safely say that no MSM outlet comes close to my political preferences, they are all flavors of corporate conservatism.

        You really should take a vacation and spend some time attempting to critically and objectively analyze conservative and liberal viewpoints. You might be surprised to find that conservatives embody most everything they criticize, in this instance your martyr "snowflake" complex. This COVID issue is also a great example, why are conservatives complaining so much about wearing masks and social distancing? Hardly a cross to bear compared to invading the Middle East with a good chance of dismemberment and death, but hey SUPPORT THE TROOPS, THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS AMIRITE?

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by hemocyanin on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:00PM (13 children)

          by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:00PM (#999798) Journal

          I'm a liberal too but the type who feels backstabbed by the DNC. One can make peace with one's enemies or engage in temporary detente when interests align, but traitors, that's a different matter.

          As for Republicans becoming super right-wing -- I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a DNC permeated by FBI, CIA, NSA operatives, a strange newage McCarthyism, a fat hardon for regime change, in banksters back pockets, and a corporate friendly woke agenda that threatens none of those institutional players but does make people completely immune to considering other positions -- you don't negotiate with actual nazis, you kill actual nazis.

          And just so we're crystal clear, the most fascistic right wing policy possible, is to execute American citizens without trial for the content of their speech. And that policy, that's on Obama. It was when I learned about due process free execution of citizens (and let's remember that Democrats excoriated GWB for mere due process free detention of foreigners (gitmo)) that my growing doubts about Democrats crystalized -- they don't care about evil policies, they care only that THEY get implement evil policy. Sorry, I'm not in that tribe. I don't care red or blue, I care about policy.

          • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:20PM (9 children)

            by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:20PM (#999811) Journal

            Holy whataboutism batman!

            Why is it OK for Republicans, such as Trump's press secretary [tampabay.com] and Trump himself [cnn.com] to vote by mail but not OK for us to?

            • (Score: 2, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:35PM (8 children)

              by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:35PM (#999823) Journal

              Really? killing citizens without trial for saying stuff doesn't phase you one bit?

              I would say everything else is whataboutism. There is no policy that is a greater human rights violation than that.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:44PM (6 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:44PM (#999837)

                I too was opposed to those, however, it could easily be argued that those people were enemy combatants as they were putting in with people that we were at war with (even if it was a largely undeclared war, it was authorized by congress under the AUMF, at least according to some legal scholars).

                • (Score: 2, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:49PM (5 children)

                  by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:49PM (#999843) Journal

                  No such evidence was ever presented at a public trial as required by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The ONLY facts we have, are that Americans were murdered by the Feds because they said stuff the Feds did not like. That's fascist. Pure simple authoritarian evil and there is no justification possible.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:49PM (4 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:49PM (#999907)

                    Believe it or not my left-wing ass agrees with you. Many liberals weren't huge fans of Obama, but he was better than most that came before him.

                    I find it strange that you would then go on to stupport the GOP, it isn't like US fascism hasn't been around for a good long time. Maybe the droning of a US citizen was what woke you up, but all I see from you is mostly conservative tropes. I would think the GOP senate declining to hear evidence in the impeachment trial would rile you up at least a little bit as much.

                    Ah well, strange times we live in where humans don't know who to trust or what to believe.

                    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by hemocyanin on Wednesday May 27 2020, @09:05PM

                      by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @09:05PM (#999919) Journal

                      I believe the parties are in the process of reversing roles. It's happened in the past, for example with slavery/race issues. Going forward, I suspect the "right" (I don't even know what the correct word is anymore honestly) is going to be increasingly inclusive, it certainly is more willing to engage in discussion and entertain opposing viewpoints -- the left (if that's the right term) is all in on cancel culture and displaying every greater authoritarian tendencies. I see the DNC becoming the establishment party and the GOP is close to taking up the banner of counter-cultural rebels. Ten years will tell.

                      I'm neither Democrat nor Republican, but as I've said before, I used to be a Dem, I feel betrayed by them, and the deepest hatred is reserved for one's traitors, not one's enemies. And yeah, I'll admit it: if Trump wins, I will experience schadenfreude even greater than I did last time, even though I voted Green. I want nothing more than to see the entire Clintonian cancer on the DNC, utterly humiliated and excised so we can get to something decent.

                    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @09:58PM (2 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @09:58PM (#999936)

                      Many liberals weren't huge fans of Obama, but he was better than most that came before him.

                      I had big hopes for him. And he didn't get anything done at all. Things continued like under Baby Bush. Americans were droned, spied upon; Guantanamo remains open; we fucked up Libya and the Ukraine.

                      Perhaps he got a visit early on that convinced him not to interfere with the deep state.

                      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @01:25AM (1 child)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @01:25AM (#1000014)

                        There is no deep state, just oligarchies doing their thing like in every country ever. All the buzzwords like terrorist, deep state, conspiracy, military action, those are all to create an air of mystery. To make people thinking something new and different is going on instead of the long history of the wealthy oppressing the poor.

                        It is tragic how well the bullshit works.

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @08:18AM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @08:18AM (#1000089)

                          They employ gamekeepers whose job it is corral those even more unfortunate away from the important people.

              • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Thursday May 28 2020, @10:06PM

                by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday May 28 2020, @10:06PM (#1000298) Journal

                Only a democrat would dwonmod a post that condemns a star chamber of the US Executive branch killing its citizens without trial.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:22PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:22PM (#999813)

            I agree, but I see republicans utterly decimated as a party. The religious freaks I hated have mostly disappeared from public view. The tea-partyers have evaporated. What does the republican pary still stand for? Currently all energy seems to go defending Trump, a refugee from the democrat party, from the relentless MSM onslaught.

            The democrat party is not in much better shape, but they still have their core constituencies of the media elites and welfare recipients.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:29PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:29PM (#999819)

              "media elites and welfare recipients"

              Ho boy, I know that has been a conservative mantra for a long time now, but damn if it isn't the most clueless shit around.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @07:11PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @07:11PM (#999858)

                The first step is to admit the Republican party has a problem. Jared is re-writing the party platform in advance of the Republican National Convention at Mar-ol-Lager. "Some good people" expected to be in attendance. "Welfare recipients" is so pre-Clinton!

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:30PM (1 child)

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:30PM (#999820) Journal

          Trump threatens to shut down social media after Twitter fact-checks him [chicagotribune.com]

          And what would actually be unconstitutional government censorship is completely fine, according to all these censorship wolf-criers.

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @01:03AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @01:03AM (#1000004)

            Thankfully Tim Pool gets it. [youtube.com]

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by meustrus on Wednesday May 27 2020, @05:52PM (8 children)

        by meustrus (4961) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @05:52PM (#999792)

        You really think this is the only example?

        If you provide only one example, then there is only one example. It's your responsibility, not anybody else's, to collect facts supporting your own argument.

        From there it's a spiral into a default skeptical reaction rather than a default trusting reaction.

        It's unfortunate that the "default skeptical reaction" so often applies only to so-called mainstream media, and is not employed for partisan content one wants to agree with. "Fair and balanced" my ass.

        The correct reaction to discovering that everyone has a perspective that can bias their reporting is to insist on facts. If anybody fails to adequately support their own argument, it probably means they haven't even properly investigated it for themselves. It's not your responsibility to collect their facts for them.

        The worst thing you can do, though, is scramble about looking for somebody else to trust. Did you learn nothing from discovering CNN's media bias? Why would you think that any cable network is better? Why would you think somebody on the internet is more trustworthy? Just because the left lies sometimes doesn't mean the right never lies ever.

        --
        If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
        • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:10PM (7 children)

          by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:10PM (#999805) Journal

          Sorry, this is a total cop out. If you want to pretend to be blind it's on you, but here some things to consider: Yellow cake. Russiagate (including the Flynn debacle). The differences in how sexual assault claims are treated when the target is a Democrat like Biden.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by meustrus on Wednesday May 27 2020, @07:07PM (5 children)

            by meustrus (4961) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @07:07PM (#999853)

            You're not sorry, but I get it. It's much easier to see the flaws in our opponents than it is to see the flaws in ourselves.

            I'm not here to tell you that you're wrong. I'm here to tell you that other people are just as skeptical as you are.

            When you see some people accept lies and half-truths from the New York Times, it's not that those people are incapable of skepticism. They are plenty skeptical of Fox News and the like. They just have a blind spot for people telling them what they want to hear.

            Similarly, when you hear lies and half-truths from Fox News, you should pretend that it came from the New York Times. Apply your "default skeptical reaction" to everything, not just the news sources you have caught saying lies you don't like.

            To come back around to my first point, though, it's important how you talk about these things. Don't just assume people know about "yellowcake". You have to go through the motions of relaying the facts yourself. Sometimes, you will find that the narrative you've adopted doesn't quite fit together. It's happened to me a few times that I didn't know I was wrong until I tried to convince someone else I was right.

            The last thing any of us should want is for ideology to be more important than the facts. The facts are the only thing that you and I can both look at and agree on. They're the things that make your opponents squirm when they hear them. Use that. Stop trying to turn every argument into some post-modern bullshit about how there is no truth, so the only thing you can do is attack the liars. All that accomplishes is everyone involved believing they were right and everyone else is an idiot.

            We all surround ourselves with information that supports our existing worldview. Google and social media do that to us now, too. It's entirely possible that if I search for something, I won't find the facts, because all my friends and Google search results have a particular bias. That's why it's especially important to make a complete and compelling argument to everyone you're talking to. You can't assume they can find the facts anywhere else.

            --
            If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
            • (Score: 2, Touché) by hemocyanin on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:47PM (4 children)

              by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:47PM (#999906) Journal

              You presume SN is a place for discussion. It has devolved into a downmod hoard of Democrat partisans who have no interest in discussion because everyone else, even other liberals like me, is a literal nazi. They can take those terms and RTFG (because of course they wouldn't use DDG) but to hell with putting in any effort for them.

              • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:55PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:55PM (#999911)

                Do you even listen to yourself?

                I call straight up bullshit on your "liberal" identity. You are only ever harping on the liberals around here while there is plenty of conservative bullshit for you to bite into.

                Get fucked asshole, YOU are the type of partisan fuckwad you are angry about but it is never a YOU problem. Gaslight Obstruct Project! Snowflake whiner.

                • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Thursday May 28 2020, @10:09PM

                  by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday May 28 2020, @10:09PM (#1000300) Journal

                  You confuse (or conflate) liberal with Democrat.

                  Democrats are the avowed enemy of liberals. Not by words of course, but by their deeds they are known.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @10:01PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @10:01PM (#999938)

                who have no interest in discussion

                Worse: Their goal is to prevent other people from seeing what someone else wrote, because the default squelch is +1.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @08:26AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @08:26AM (#1000092)

                Any yet this is about the 10th time you've said that - on this thread.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @07:09PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @07:09PM (#999856)

            You act as though it is only the Left that is treating sexual assault differently when it is done by the Left.

            Don't attempt to claim that the Right did not do the exact same thing when the shoe was on the other foot.

            You will need to bring up something that actually distinguishes the two sides to have an argument for one or the other.

    • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:18PM

      by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:18PM (#999749)

      But that applies to everyone, right? In all ways, circumstances, right?

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:41PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:41PM (#999758)

      Here's a link https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud [heritage.org] to a list of recent election fraud cases in the US. Note they only list ones that are investigated or prosecuted. Oh, and they list sources for every single one.

      Even using such strict criteria, they have over a thousand cases.

      At some point, anecdotes are data, for a sufficiently large number of anecdotes.

      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:44PM (1 child)

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:44PM (#999760) Journal

        Most of those are NOT mail in voting fraud.

        So I guess we need to eliminate in person voting first since it results in more fraud.

        • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:13PM

          by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:13PM (#999808) Journal

          Fraud is fraud. Kind of link how all the "*.onTheInternet" patents are extra-ridiculous ways of describing the same thing done, but with a computer. Voter fraud done by mail is just the evolution of voter fraud, just like paying the seller online is merely an extension of paying the seller in person.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by RS3 on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:24PM (28 children)

    by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @04:24PM (#999752)

    I got modded "troll", twice at least, for making a completely non-political statement. I'm starting to hate this site for its very broken mod system. Mod system abuse was discussed at length many times and yet it's unchanged. If one person can drop my post out of visibility to most who come here, then at the very least the system should 1) tell me who did it, and 2) force them to give a legitimate justification for the mod, or they themselves should lose karma, mod points, etc. No point in wasting my time here, trying to engage in some kind of intelligent discussion. Ironically (really) green site has been great, for quite a while now.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @05:13PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @05:13PM (#999774)

      Whiner

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @05:27PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @05:27PM (#999779)

      So we need to debunk the debunkers. Where will it end? What is a "fact" anymore? What even is "truth"?

      That is hardly a post worth defending, and rather trollish.

      The only other post than the one I'm replying to has no negative mods. So you posted AC apparently. The mod system is what you get to deal with instead of users getting banned. It has many problems, but so far no one has come up with an effective solution.

      #1 is a good way to generate animosity and user wars
      #2 people will not bother modding if they have to provide justifications for their opinions, and besides who judges if the mod is appropriate? Right now the admins/editors supposedly only correct baltant mod bombing or misused mods, but encourage more of that and you get a new set of problems where admins/editors dictate acceptable speech.

      Maybe just don't get worked up about mod points, anyone can click on your post to see what it is. If you usually have decent posts that do not get modded troll/flamebait then a lot of people will click your post so they can read it.

      PS: you have no right to have your ideas pushed on to other people, and other people are allowed to criticize you. There is a certain irony about you complaining about mods in this story ;~)

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @05:51PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @05:51PM (#999791)

        The mod system is what you get to deal with instead of users getting banned.

        Oh, you own SN? We're supposed to be grateful that people who disagree with you don't get banned?

        • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday May 27 2020, @07:37PM (1 child)

          by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @07:37PM (#999875)

          There is so much illogic in previous AC's post that it's not worth the time and effort to refute each point.

          And to him, I did not post AC anywhere in this discussion, and very rarely do.

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @06:06PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @06:06PM (#1000218)

            Your brain, it no worky good.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:19PM (19 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @06:19PM (#999810)

      Realize, Democrat (*) propagandists are everywhere, they are unwilling to engage in dialogue, they wish to advance their views by force, and they have no compunction about lying or fabricating agenda driven narratives.

      To combat:

      Step one: don't post with a karma bonus on because doing so allows up to -3 karma, not doing so only -2.
      Step two: Keep coming back for days and look for abuse and correct it. This is how I spend most of my mod points these days -- looking for comments marked troll etc., and then upmodding. I'll come back when my points recycle and get yours if I agree with it.

      (*) Let's detangle liberal and open minded, from the word Democrat. Democrats are as rational and open as 80s Evangelicals.

      • (Score: 2, Troll) by RS3 on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:09PM (18 children)

        by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:09PM (#999891)

        Thanks for the insight and great tips. Frankly, unless the admins fix the mod system (and some great ideas have been set forth), I just won't waste my time here. There are many much better sites. I mean, other than the mod system, this site is great.

        I occasionally do fix mod abuse, but it's so bad here, I'd need 200 points a day, and 4 extra hours.

        I foolishly thought SN was a place for open-minded thinkers. I usually stay out of discussions like this due to the illogic. I'd have more luck going to a Jim Jones-type event and trying to convince the people to not drink the kool-aid. I still can't believe my original post here is downmodded. All I tried to say is that it's foolish to 100% believe anyone else. Go talk to the Jim Jones people. Oh wait.

        Thanks again. As always, I wish I knew who you were, among the crowd of ACs. You know, there are some great ones, maybe they're all you? And there are some true idiots- probably a few known people who are too afraid to post in their accounts.

        Time for another breakaway system...

        • (Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:23PM (5 children)

          by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:23PM (#999896) Journal

          That's hyperbolic. You have nearly 50 karma at all times but a couple of downmods got your feelings hurt. Also:

          Step one: don't post with a karma bonus on because doing so allows up to -3 karma, not doing so only -2.

          Not true. The karma bonus is virtual. It doesn't allow a comment to be downmodded an additional time. AC deserves a wedgie.

          --
          [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
          • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:55PM (1 child)

            by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday May 27 2020, @08:55PM (#999912) Journal

            Is it virtual? When I post at +2 I can see a post go to 1, then 0, then -1 after three mods. Are you saying only two count against Karma.

            Here's one way the karma system can be made better -- let's say you have 50 points, make a post, you first get +1 insightful and -1 troll -- at the end of that you have 49 points because at 50 you've ceilinged, however, if the mod order is reversed, you stay at 50. Same post, same mods, different score. It seems it would make sense to apply the sum of a posts mods to Karma, rather than just blindly adding or subtracting as they come in.

            • (Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday May 27 2020, @09:15PM

              by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Wednesday May 27 2020, @09:15PM (#999923) Journal

              The clear way to test it is to go here:

              https://soylentnews.org/my/comments [soylentnews.org]

              Change the karma bonus to 0. And note that you can change it from -6 to +6.

              With the karma bonus set to 1, you will sometimes see a logged-in comment at Score: 0, you try to mod them down, but the mod point is not spent because they are already at -1, you just have the karma bonus modifier at +1. Likewise, comments may appear to be at Score: 5 but can either be at Score: 5 or just Score: 4.

              --
              [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by RS3 on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:24AM (2 children)

            by RS3 (6367) on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:24AM (#1000043)

            > That's hyperbolic.

            Which thing, my whole post?

            > downmods got your feelings hurt.

            Sorry Dr. Phil, your mind-reader is broken. Feelings are not the issue. How does that make you feel? :)

            I, wrongly I guess, thought this place was founded by intelligent people who wanted a much better atmosphere than that of dank biker-bar sh%*fest, I mean slashdot.

            Mod-system abuse has been discussed many times, and top admins have stated clearly that modding someone "troll", just because you disagree, is mod abuse. Stating it, and doing something about it, are 2 different things. It's okay, I'm learning. Too slowly I guess. I'm more of a naive nerd than street-wise wit-slinger, but I usually eventually get it and make adjustments.

            • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday May 28 2020, @07:54PM (1 child)

              by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday May 28 2020, @07:54PM (#1000263) Journal

              Testify, brother!

              • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday May 29 2020, @03:15AM

                by RS3 (6367) on Friday May 29 2020, @03:15AM (#1000386)

                Uh-oh, a kudo from Ari? I'm officially on the dark side? :) Look out idiots.

                I started out with what I thought was a simple comment saying we can't be too sure of anything we hear or read. Simple, right? And it reflects most poorly on Trump, whose haters are 99.999% likely the idiots who downmodded me. I can be as, if not more, beastly than some of the best on here, but it's not who I want to be, and I resent the assholes here who push me to that. Didn't come here for that. Maybe that is the solution- increase the dark side numbers and destroy the idiots. Naaa, got better things to do, and much better people to spend my time with. But thanks for the kudo, and for staying strong and stimulating whatever the hell this place is.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @10:17PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @10:17PM (#999945)

          Frankly, unless the admins fix the mod system (and some great ideas have been set forth), I just won't waste my time here. There are many much better sites. I mean, other than the mod system, this site is great.

          It's what the green site had, but without the meta-moderation. Now, some sort of mod review could be helpful. As would be a check whether some are farming accounts to gain daily mod points.

          But why get so frustrated? This site doesn't have an overwhelming amount of traffic, so I always (manually) set to -1. It's repetitive to have to do that, but it slightly frustrates the political downmodders' intentions and leaves the decision up to me what is troll and what isn't.

          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday May 28 2020, @02:52AM (2 children)

            by RS3 (6367) on Thursday May 28 2020, @02:52AM (#1000036)

            I'm not "so frustrated", Dr. Phil. No need to exaggerate. I'll admit I'm annoyed, or something. It's a matter of where I spend my time and effort. And, frankly, some (and it may only be a few) of the crowd here are people I'd be ashamed to be considered part of their group. [better explained further down]

            This site has a lot of great people, including some ACs like yourself. I have many ideas for a great mod system that would encourage friendly, healthy, useful, spirited- all positive discussions, and would quickly shut down the ad hominem.

            I might respond to Dr. Phil Takyon, but basically the sign out front says this place is a pleasant place to socialize, learn, have some snacks, and when you get inside you see it's a musty biker bar with beer, fists, and chairs flying (and occasional guns), orgies, the dankest smelliest place you've been in a long time, and the owners are happy with it. Okay, obvious exaggeration (it was my turn), but you get my point. Not sure if most here have their collective heads in the sand (see, I cleaned that up from what I maybe should have written) but a certain green site had to enact some pretty strong cleaning up and it worked. It can be done.

            I will admit to being disappointed. This site was started by some great people who wanted to get away from the sh*#fest of green site. I foolishly presumed that meant this site would be populated by good people who were not going to let SN turn into yet another sh&(fest, and the admins would work to keep it a good environment. Too frequently I wonder if I'm just a rat in their maze.

            Good point- this site doesn't have a lot of traffic, and I suppose they want it that way.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:50AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:50AM (#1000051)

              No actually we came here because they moved our stapler. Fuck beta!

              But then they got rid of anonymous speech, and the Slashcott was vindicated.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @04:24AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @04:24AM (#1000057)

                We've recently broken 1m comments!

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Reziac on Thursday May 28 2020, @02:37AM (7 children)

          by Reziac (2489) on Thursday May 28 2020, @02:37AM (#1000033) Homepage

          While we have two pretty distinct camps here, it's not difficult to ignore the "camp of idiots" (whichever you may feel that is). I don't worry too much about punitive mods, either, tho I spend a fair share of my mod points pulling good posts back up to visibility.

          I do agree that downmods should be in some way expensive -- maybe cost two mod points instead of one, to discourage using Troll as a substitute for Disagree.

          And I for one would be sorry to see you go.

          --
          And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:14AM (5 children)

            by RS3 (6367) on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:14AM (#1000037)

            You, sir, are a true man, gentleman, and scholar. Thank you for your kind and uplifting words. I'm genuinely honored. I think I have some great ideas for a fairly different mod system. It would be hierarchical, downmods could be appealed, 1 mod would not move your post down 1 notch, who modded who would be public, etc. Someday when I have lots of time I might just try it. :) But maybe there are better ways to spend my time than fixing slashcode.

            Honestly, I don't think there are any idiots, and I respect everyone's opinions. It's the mod system abuse that's been discussed many times, including by top admins, yet it continues unabated. I wish people would behave with more self-control, politeness, etc. I was raised that way, but society in general has degraded into everyone bashing everyone. Incivility. Spread much faster than COVID-19.

            Human nature being what it is, on sites like this people behave much worse than they probably (hopefully) do in real life.

            I have more to say about this system, downmods, mod-bombing, etc., but I don't want to make it public. I'll say this: the admins know it's a problem, and they've had to punish (such as it is) abusers. martyb himself (I think it was him...) wrote that modding "troll" just because you disagree with someone is mod system abuse. If it was up to me, said abuser would lose mod points for 2 weeks, karma would drop way down, ...

            But that said, in my possible future system the downmodder would be allowed to state his case and defend his position, and we'd go from there.

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Reziac on Thursday May 28 2020, @05:45AM (2 children)

              by Reziac (2489) on Thursday May 28 2020, @05:45AM (#1000065) Homepage

              [bowing] Thank you too, kind sir.

              The big reason for all mods to be anonymous is the potential for retaliatory mods. We're small enough that pretty much everyone knows everyone (it's not like Discus -- where downmods are under your own handle -- but with millions of comments, who matters?) and I think it would just be painting a target on yourself -- for downmodes OR upmods -- upmodding an unpopular position being just as likely to draw the ire of the True Believers In Contrary Things.

              I think just making downmods more expensive (eg. two points each) would handle it, as best can be without unintended and perhaps even more unpleasant consequences.

              Myself, I rarely downmod as it doesn't discourage idiots (shorthand for "people who believe things that are patently untrue, or who act like cunts") and I rarely find it useful; I have better things to do with my points, and I'm adept at skimming past garbage. Last time Buzzy (?) compiled mod stats, I was one of the least likely to downmod. I do sometimes upmod stuff I disagree with or even find wrongheaded, because it includes some point that deserves to be seen, or to avoid having a confusing gap in a discussion. I read here with default threshold at 0, and find a fair number of comments in the 0 rank that deserve a boost. I really like having the daily points and the ability to post and mod in the same discussion, as it produces a leveling effect (and if you think we're polarized, you should see how things are on the Green Site!! we're downright civil by comparison.)

              --
              And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
              • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:36PM (1 child)

                by RS3 (6367) on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:36PM (#1000179)

                Thank you, all great points and insight. I also rarely downmod- only if it's true troll or flamebait.

                That said, I could vote in favor of some new downmod types, but before I go on with that, I'd rather have NO downmods, except troll and spam. And anyone who misuses either gets punished. As I started to write in reply to janrinock, but just don't have the heart to spend time or thought on it, societies have had to form governments, laws, courts, punishments, to keep peace and civility. Much of my life I dreamt of a fairly free, open, mostly libertarian society, but there are too many very bad people so we need prisons. I'm writing today but I'll withhold future comments here until I see some changes to mod system abuse fixes.

                Btw, I have no problem with people who believe things that are patently untrue. It's all about time and a timeline- we all just write the best of our ability and knowledge, right? Like my original post that got at least 7 downmods, well, it all dovetails into a lengthy philosophical discussion about what is fact or truth.

                Hate to write it, but I've had a green site login since '98 or so. Rarely used it over the years (because it was so so bad), but green site is so cleaned up now that it's invigorating. I find brilliant comments and information there. And like you, I find it easy to skim past the garbage. Frankly, it's now the civil site, and SN is frequently a trainwreck / street riot. And you can always tell by the number of comments in a story. Green got tough and it worked.

                • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Thursday May 28 2020, @04:27PM

                  by Reziac (2489) on Thursday May 28 2020, @04:27PM (#1000190) Homepage

                  I must be looking at different Green articles... (I too go back to the Olden Times, being a middle-5-digiter from 1998) ...most comment chains that I peruse are loaded with vitriol of a caliber I've *never* seen here, not even from our habitually acrimonious types... and those I know from both sites are rather more bristly Over There. But I do like it better here and am rather more likely to click on and read down random articles here, as everything isn't so politically slanted here. And here I usually spend all my mod points; there I seldom do (tho there I seem to often have infinite mod points -- refills instantly after I use 'em up. Maybe it's a function of upmodding, or something.)

                  Had another thought relevant to the nominal topic:

                  Here, downmods are only done by Users. We might vehemently disagree, but downmods still reflect a broad spectrum of the community.

                  On the Dirty Bird, downmods (and tagging a post as Badthink or Wrong IS a downmod) are only done by the Site Authorities. Downmods are a decree from on high. (To be fair, I'd say the Bird has mobs, not communities.)

                  [I've had a Twatter account for about 12 years, but rarely use it, and I never just cruise new posts.]

                  --
                  And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @08:32AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 28 2020, @08:32AM (#1000095)

              Hey don't neglect us idiots! Asshole.

              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Reziac on Thursday May 28 2020, @04:31PM

                by Reziac (2489) on Thursday May 28 2020, @04:31PM (#1000192) Homepage

                LOL, okay, idiot AND asshole. Happy? :)

                Back when Gab had downmods, there was a friendly competition to see who could achieve the worst negative score. (I think it got down into the mid-minus-50,000 range.) I had one follower who was in on that and made him very happy with a downvote every time I saw him. :P

                You just gotta know your audience.

                --
                And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:35AM

            by RS3 (6367) on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:35AM (#1000049)

            I'm not going to go, but I have limited time to spend, which is partly why I came here- smaller, more easily read discussions. But this site has become very heavily political. I can't help but notice the huge comment counts for anything remotely political, or that stirs political "discussion", and sadly sometimes zero comments for some great science (my strong interest / preference). So I'll check in here, try to up-mod anything that looks unfairly downmodded, as I've done all along, but I'll spend more of the available time in greener pastures. :)

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @07:13PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2020, @07:13PM (#999859)

      Troll!

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by janrinok on Thursday May 28 2020, @02:21PM (1 child)

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 28 2020, @02:21PM (#1000161) Journal

      To an extent I agree with you - but it is pointless expecting an intelligent discussion on US politics on this site. Both sides have become polarised, entrenched and unwilling to take part in a reasoned discussion. I'll wait for the next story.

      • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:48PM

        by RS3 (6367) on Thursday May 28 2020, @03:48PM (#1000182)

        > but it is pointless expecting an intelligent a civil discussion on...

        FTFY

        I had many thoughts and had started writing them but what's the use. Thank you janrinok!