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posted by martyb on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:45AM   Printer-friendly
from the having-your-cake-and-eating-it-too-OR-let-them-eat-cake? dept.

Zuckerberg Accused of Setting Dangerous Precedent

Zuckerberg accused of setting dangerous precedent:

Mark Zuckerberg is setting a "dangerous precedent" by allowing a post by Donald Trump to remain on Facebook, a group of civil rights leaders has warned.

[...] In the post, the president wrote he would "send in the National Guard", and warned that "when the looting starts, the shooting starts".

Mr Trump shared the same message on Twitter, where it was hidden behind a warning label, prompting an escalating row between Twitter and the White House.

Mr Zuckerberg had previously defended his decision to leave the same post up on Facebook, saying he disagreed with Mr Trump's words but that people "should be able to see this for themselves".

After meeting Mr Zuckerberg, three civil rights leaders responded that he was wrong.

[...] The joint statement, released on Monday night, was signed by Vanita Gupta, president of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights; Sherrilyn Ifill, director-counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund; and Rashad Robinson, president of Color of Change. It has been published online by Axios.

A Facebook spokesman said: "We're grateful that leaders in the civil rights community took the time to share candid, honest feedback with Mark and Sheryl [Sandberg, Facebook's COO].

Mark Zuckerberg on Leaked Audio: Trump's Looting and Shooting Reference "Has no History of Dogwhistling

Mark Zuckerberg on leaked audio: Trump's looting and shooting reference "has no history of being read as a dog whistle":

In an internal video call with Facebook employees on Tuesday obtained by Recode, CEO Mark Zuckerberg doubled down on his controversial decision to take no action on a post last week from President Donald Trump. In the post, Trump referred to the ongoing protests in the US against racism and police brutality and said, "when the looting starts, the shooting starts."

Facebook's handling of Trump's post — which included language similar to what segregationists used when referring to black protesters in the civil rights era — has divided employees at Facebook and prompted them to openly criticize Zuckerberg in a way they never have before. Around 400 employees staged a virtual walkout of work on Monday, at least two employees have resigned in protest, others have threatened to resign, and several senior-level managers have publicly disagreed with Zuckerberg's stance — calling for him to take down or otherwise moderate Trump's post, as Facebook's competitor Twitter already has.

[...] "I knew that the stakes were very high on this, and knew a lot of people would be upset if we made the decision to leave it up," Zuckerberg said on the call. He went on to say that after reviewing the implications of Trump's statement, he decided that "the right action for where we are right now is to leave this up."

[...] "We basically concluded after the research and after everything I've read and all the different folks that I've talked to that the reference is clearly to aggressive policing — maybe excessive policing — but it has no history of being read as a dog whistle for vigilante supporters to take justice into their own hands," Zuckerberg said on the call. He also said that, overall, Facebook still reserves the right to moderate Trump.

Civil Rights Leaders Slam Zuckerberg Over Response to Trump Posts, Says Report

Civil rights leaders slam Zuckerberg over response to Trump posts, says report:

A group of civil rights leaders issued a scathing statement on Monday about Facebook in the wake of a meeting with the social networking company's CEO, Mark Zuckerberg and other top executives, according to a report by Axios. The meeting was set-up to discuss Facebook's decision to leave up a post by US President Donald Trump that the civil rights leaders say incites violence.

"He [Zuckerberg] did not demonstrate understanding of historic or modern-day voter suppression and he refuses to acknowledge how Facebook is facilitating Trump's call for violence against protesters," the heads of the The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund and Color of Change said in a joint statement. "Mark is setting a very dangerous precedent for other voices who would say similar harmful things on Facebook."

The meeting, which was held on Monday night over video call, came after Facebook employees staged a rare protest in the form of a virtual walkout to express their anger against Zuckerberg's response to Trump. It also followed Twitter's move to hide the same post by Trump behind a warning that says the tweet violated the site's rules against "glorifying violence."

"We're grateful that leaders in the civil rights community took the time to share candid, honest feedback with Mark and Sheryl [Sandberg]," a Facebook company spokesperson said in an emailed statement on Tuesday. "It is an important moment to listen, and we look forward to continuing these conversations."

[...] "We believe that if a post incites violence, it should be removed regardless of whether it is newsworthy, even if it comes from a politician."


Original Submission #1 Original Submission #2 Original Submission #3

 
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:53AM (68 children)

    by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:53AM (#1003067) Journal

    Real civil rights leaders would never call for censorship

    --
    La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
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  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by istartedi on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:00AM (6 children)

    by istartedi (123) on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:00AM (#1003069) Journal

    This. "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever". That's an infamous line from George Wallace's inaugural address as governor of Alabama, in 1963. The media of the day, no matter their opinion, would not have dreamed of censoring it. The Black press probably printed it too. Why hide the racism? Why not let it all hang out there, so we can judge it?

    --
    Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:13AM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:13AM (#1003077)

      Black leftists have actually called for segregation on college campuses. Something, something history something repeat it.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:47PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:47PM (#1003335)

        [citation needed]

      • (Score: 2) by Username on Thursday June 04 2020, @11:56PM (2 children)

        by Username (4557) on Thursday June 04 2020, @11:56PM (#1003444)

        Black leftist like the term separation, as in Malcolm X's black nationalism. Black nationalists define segregation as white oppressive separation of the races, where whites control the white and black areas. While they want black controlled black areas and white controlled white areas.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @11:41AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @11:41AM (#1003682)

          Integrated areas when and where the white and black public find that acceptable. Honestly at this point though the segregation is better served between Liberal and Conservative, than along racial boundaries.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @09:32PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @09:32PM (#1006001)

            The class-based segregation had already occured - what do you think those gates at the entrance to the neighborhood are for?

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:03AM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:03AM (#1003070)

    There have already been looters shot and a 77 year old black ex cop shot dead by looters. Why assume it was a historical reference rather than a truism? Where's the condemnation of people promoting looting? Clowns [twitter.com]

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:31AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:31AM (#1003106)

      77 year old black ex cop shot dead by looters

      Twice! Ruled a suicide.

  • (Score: 4, Troll) by qzm on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:06AM (48 children)

    by qzm (3260) on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:06AM (#1003073)

    Pretty much this. Trumps statement was clearly a warning to PROTEST not LOOT, put in that oh so agressively American way that he seems to prefer.

    But consider one thing, this is in NO way an attempt to incite people to actions - he is, for better or worse, the President of the US, He does actually have some power in this matter.
    It is a statement of intent, not an incitement.

    Would these people rather the President was doing things behind closed doors (which is the more general method) and then when people get shot without at least SOME warning, just a lot of doubletalk and hand waving?

    If there is one feature of Trump that should be held in high esteem, its his habit of blathering off publicly what is on his mind - its one hell of a lot preferably to the backroom deals that most politicians use4 for EVERYTHING these days.

    Perhaps instead they should be arguing over if Trump should actually take such actions, rather than trying to claim the US President shouldn't be heard.. Do the REALLY want to de-platform someone who has such power?
    Isnt it better we all hear as much of what is on his mind as possible?

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:16AM (2 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:16AM (#1003078) Journal

      Would these people rather the President was doing things behind closed doors (which is the more general method) and then when people get shot without at least SOME warning, just a lot of doubletalk and hand waving?

      Because, oh, these are the only two ways POTUS can react to dismantle the crisis, right?

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by qzm on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:48AM (1 child)

        by qzm (3260) on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:48AM (#1003100)

        Nice attempt at a strawman, however we are talking about if it is desirable that his blatherings are made public, NOT about what actions he actually takes to dismantle a crisis.
        Or are you not capable of understanding such differences, because orange man bad?

        I am FAR more worried about actions that may be being taken BEHIND CLOSED DOORS than what he says in public. Any thinking person should be.

        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by c0lo on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:37AM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:37AM (#1003108) Journal

          however we are talking about if it is desirable that his blatherings are made public, NOT about what actions he actually takes to dismantle a crisis.

          Apologies if I misunderstood the "and then when people get shot without at least SOME warning" as actions not as "blathering", usually shooting isn't just speech.

          As a matter of personal preference, I would have liked to not hear any blathering from POTUS, but mature reactions that lower the crisis and not inflame the situation more. I wouldn't even have minded to not knowing how such reactions have been decided behind closed doors. But then, it may be that's just me having unreasonable expectations from the POTUS, after all every nation gets the government it deserves.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:29AM (23 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:29AM (#1003080) Journal

      Trying to de-platform a President?

      How dare a civilian organization not bow to the President, the God Emperor of USofA?
      Oh, Gods, can you imagine? What it would have been if the founding fathers were to be deplatformed by Tweeter and FB?

      (point: methinks a President should be able to reach to the citizens by heaps of other means, his Orangeness has been the first one to depend on Twitter and FoxNews for his... ummm... communication needs. You recon it's a healthy [vox.com] dependency [vox.com]?)

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by qzm on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:46AM (22 children)

        by qzm (3260) on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:46AM (#1003099)

        I think that if you hate him so much then you would be happy that his stupidity and lies are as widely seen as possible.
        Is there any BETTER way to shame him?

        Would you rather he quietly sat behind some nice smooth savvy political frontmen and did his work without us seeing clearly what he thinks?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:34AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:34AM (#1003107)

          #BunkerBoy #JusticeForCarolyn Musterfunking Dumpfkoptkeitlich Shiecen Swinehund.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:48AM (8 children)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:48AM (#1003109) Journal

          I think that if you hate him so much then you would be happy that his stupidity and lies are as widely seen as possible.

          Mate, I don't even care about him, he's just deep into the indifference territory. True, the fact that I live in Australia helps.

          What I still care is the effect the idiot has on Americans. It may happen that I'll reach a point where I don't care even about that, but I'm not there at the moment.

          Is there any BETTER way to shame him?

          I can't even imagine why I'd be interested in shaming him. I'd be a lot more interested in having a person that does a reasonable job as POTUS.

          Would you rather he quietly sat behind some nice smooth savvy political frontmen and did his work without us seeing clearly what he thinks?

          Compared with making public his "fine people on both sizes" endorsement of killers?
          Yes, absolutely.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @09:18AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @09:18AM (#1003115)

            We Americans feel your love, c0lo, thank you for your support!

            • (Score: 3, Funny) by c0lo on Thursday June 04 2020, @10:41AM

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 04 2020, @10:41AM (#1003124) Journal

              Love is a bit too far. Let's say I care a bit.

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:28PM (5 children)

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:28PM (#1003235) Journal

            What I still care is the effect the idiot has on Americans. It may happen that I'll reach a point where I don't care even about that, but I'm not there at the moment.

            It may be a bit brusque to point it out, but the best reason for Australia to care about America is Australia. Do Australians want their kids to speak English, or Chinese as a subject state within the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, Mark II?

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:58PM (4 children)

              by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:58PM (#1003258) Journal

              Now that you mention, what are the chances USofA can be of any use with idiots at the helm?

              --
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
              • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday June 05 2020, @02:19PM (3 children)

                by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday June 05 2020, @02:19PM (#1003749) Journal

                If you doubt the resolve and ability of the American people, then the best advice to give you is start boning up on your Mandarin.

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
                • (Score: 3, Touché) by c0lo on Friday June 05 2020, @02:41PM (2 children)

                  by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday June 05 2020, @02:41PM (#1003756) Journal

                  Right, Afghanistan was one of the last demonstration of the "resolve and ability of the American people", I might as well.

                  --
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
                  • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday June 06 2020, @10:20AM (1 child)

                    by Phoenix666 (552) on Saturday June 06 2020, @10:20AM (#1004138) Journal

                    Hell, we were there for 15 years, which is longer than we fought the Nazis, so I'd say that shows resolve. Together with Iraq we spent about $6 trillion. I'd say that shows some resolve, too. We killed Osama bin Laden and drove the Taliban from power, so that's ability. We killed Saddam Hussein and destroyed the Ba'ath, so that shows ability. Building functional democracies in those places has been less successful, but, then, those places never have had such a thing, ever, so it's an uphill climb. Presumably on the latter score we'd do a little better defending Australia--Aussies can still govern themselves, can't they?

                    But that's cool if you don't want American help against China. As nice as Bondi is, my children don't need to die to defend it; we have good beaches and surf in the States, too.

                    --
                    Washington DC delenda est.
                    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday June 07 2020, @12:21AM

                      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Sunday June 07 2020, @12:21AM (#1004373) Journal

                      Hell, we were there for 15 years, which is longer than we fought the Nazis, so I'd say that shows resolve. Together with Iraq we spent about $6 trillion. I'd say that shows some resolve, too.

                      I'd call it stupidity but, well, that's a personal opinion.

                      Together with Iraq we spent about $6 trillion. I'd say that shows some resolve, too. We killed Osama bin Laden and drove the Taliban from power, so that's ability. We killed Saddam Hussein and destroyed the Ba'ath, so that shows ability. Building functional democracies in those places has been less successful, but, then, those places never have had such a thing, ever, so it's an uphill climb.

                      While, in the same time, you helped China get most of your industry and R&D and pushed China in a position to become the next potential global aggressor; and that's without even convincing the Chinese population that democracy is better than what they experience now. So, what gives? A couple of hundred millions at best (still not convinced about democracy and freedom) vs 1B+ entrenched into an authoritarian way of life?

                      These letting aside the actual motives behind the American "liberation wars" - I'm not buying the "freedom and democracy" story, oil and control over oil resources (USofA without the petrodollar? That's when US deficit becomes a death blow) is a far more a realistic reason.

                      But that's cool if you don't want American help against China.

                      I have so mixed feeling about it that I don't even know if I want to think of it.
                      Especially looking of what the "American dream" devolved into in its own home.

                      --
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by hendrikboom on Thursday June 04 2020, @11:55AM

          by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 04 2020, @11:55AM (#1003145) Homepage Journal

          Is there any BETTER way to shame him?

          What Twitter did.

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by TheGratefulNet on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:35PM (4 children)

          by TheGratefulNet (659) on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:35PM (#1003239)

          logical fallacy.

          fact is, most americans are not smart enough to see evil when its right in front of them. trump is a professional con-man and his skill is great. he's a pussy, down deep, and a coward, but he gives off the authoritarian 'smell' and his followers are tuned to that smell, for lack of a better word.

          simply showing a pig as being a pig, his red hatters (sorry linux guys, but that term now means something entirely different and probably will never refer to linux again, especially since IBM and RH deserve each other, lol) will not see it as we see it.

          speaking of pigs, reminds me of the famous saying: two things happen when you fight with a pig; you get dirty and the pig has fun. this applies when you engage with trump and his followers.

          so, while smarter people will see an idiot by his words, those who are in love with the orange bastard will never turn away from him. that's how deep idol worship goes. like little children who only know their emotions and nothing else.

          allowing him a platform continues to put fuel on the fire. fires are not smart enough to 'know' that what they are doing is harmful. we, humans, need to step up and do the smart thing.

          deplatform him.

          he has enough 'air time' with faux lose. he does not need any more and clearly does not deserve more.

          --
          "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:39PM (3 children)

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:39PM (#1003243) Journal

            And when a social media platform wants to un-person a President you like, I'm sure you'll be OK with that, right? I'm predicting, you'll scream bloody murder.

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:47PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:47PM (#1003249)

              You like Trump? Wow, you actually are clueless and immoral. #ThatHappened

              Tell us more about those eeeevvvvvil Clintons.

              • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday June 05 2020, @01:50PM (1 child)

                by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday June 05 2020, @01:50PM (#1003729) Journal

                I like that you and other statists hate him. I enjoy that the elites hate him. No President has the power to change the country much, but at least we get to watch the people who have been spitting on us for decades gnash their teeth and rend their garments.

                I hope Trump wins re-election because I want more of that.

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @05:00PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @05:00PM (#1003828)

                  You could have been forgiven during the election, and given a lot of slack maybe even a year ago. Not now.

                  You're an absolute fool.

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by cmdrklarg on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:01PM

          by cmdrklarg (5048) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:01PM (#1003260)

          Is there any BETTER way to shame him?

          Not possible. Assholes like him have no shame.

          --
          The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:35PM (4 children)

          by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:35PM (#1003281) Journal

          Right, censorship is never the answer. It's a symbol of the weak mind.

          Is there any BETTER way to shame him?

          Everyone knows you can't shame a psychopath.

          People have to learn to turn their backs on him and his followers. Attention is their fuel. They will die without it, and they'll put up a fight to stay on the front page. It is safer and better to ignore them until they throw the first punch. Then you have to stomach the brutality it will take to put them in their place and keep the peace.

          --
          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:52PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:52PM (#1003290)

            Hmm, looks like education is the real answer here.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions [wikipedia.org]

            "Categories of speech that are given lesser or no protection by the First Amendment (and therefore may be restricted) include obscenity, fraud, child pornography, speech integral to illegal conduct, speech that incites imminent lawless action, speech that violates intellectual property law, true threats, and commercial speech such as advertising.

            Along with communicative restrictions, less protection is afforded for uninhibited speech when the government acts as subsidizer or speaker, is an employer, controls education, or regulates the mail, airwaves, legal bar, military, prisons, and immigration."

            So no, Trump is actually not protected by the 1st amendment and taking down his post would actually be in accordance with the law. Inciting violence is specifically prohibited.

            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:33PM (2 children)

              by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:33PM (#1003299) Journal

              The courts issuing such restrictions are corrupt.

              In real life, "no law" means no law, regardless what crooked lawyers will tell you

              --
              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:21PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @07:21PM (#1003329)

                How old are you if you don't mind me asking?

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @12:03AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @12:03AM (#1003447)

                  No response, I'm guessing Fusty is stil a teen. Edge lord to the max, which explains why he never has any answers to his generic "politicians are al corrupt" uhh, ahem, "wisdom."

                  Would also explain how he vaccilates between positions and can't help when his conscience pops its head up. He hasn't had decades of practice towing the party line and dismissing inconvenient truths so he still gets caught up in genuine righteousness.

                  There is hope for you yet buddy.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Mykl on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:10AM (18 children)

      by Mykl (1112) on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:10AM (#1003087)

      Isnt it better we all hear as much of what is on his mind as possible?

      No.

      Normally I would say yes, but in his case almost everything he says is a lie. There's just no point in letting him speak if he is fundamentally incapable of conveying truthful information.

      This would be bad enough under any circumstances, but the weird relationship that several media outlets have with him (almost acting like authoritarian-state-owned media) vastly amplifies the damage of these lies.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by qzm on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:43AM (16 children)

        by qzm (3260) on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:43AM (#1003098)

        So, you would rather he took the established political approach of lying quietly behind closed doors, rather than out in the open where we can judge him? Interesting.

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:22PM (8 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:22PM (#1003230)

          Still with the useless binary mindset.

          It's been long understood that fascist leaders aren't much interested in factual discussion. What they want is the normalization of atrocities. When Trump was blathering demonstrably false bullshit about millions of illegal voters, it was a prelude to purging the voter rolls of (primarily D-) voters. When he says he's gonna make antifa (an adjective, by the way, not a name) a terrorist organization, it is a prelude to making any organization opposed to his goals outlawable. It doesn't actually matter that there's no organization now to be outlawed.

          But words do matter. Trump uses bullshit to further an agenda, making the distinction between truth and falsity is so nineteenth century. And the primary purpose of the past three years has been the normalization of bullshit, and i'll tell you why.

          A totalitarian state loves it when its victi citizens can't tell or don't care about the difference between truth and lie. And a totalitarian state is what Trump intends.
           

          • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:32PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:32PM (#1003238)

            Oh, and the less obvious (but timely) relation: POTUS has spent years ferociously demonizing legitimate news agencies. So, it's hardly surprising that police are now literally targeting reporters. His words made that possible, direct one-to-one connection. Words of fascists matter, not simply for the lies they contain, but for the evil intent they reveal.

          • (Score: 2, Redundant) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:51PM (6 children)

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:51PM (#1003252) Journal

            But words do matter. Trump uses bullshit to further an agenda, making the distinction between truth and falsity is so nineteenth century. And the primary purpose of the past three years has been the normalization of bullshit, and i'll tell you why.

            You described every politician, ever, and a great many corporate leaders too. When I think about when a new movie comes out, critics and advertisements invariably proclaim it's the best thing EVAR. That is, they use bullshit to further an agenda.

            As for the "normalization of bullshit," well, let's suppose we brand everything you say that we don't like as "normalization of bullshit." Does that make us right, just because we said it and because you're one of the "baddies?"

            A totalitarian state loves it when its victi citizens can't tell or don't care about the difference between truth and lie. And a totalitarian state is what Trump intends.

            No, a totalitarian state loves it when its citizens stop asking questions. Can you still ask questions? If you can, then you do not live in a totalitarian state.

            What leads you to say that Trump wants a totalitarian state? I haven't seen him order any mass arrests of his political opponents. He hasn't censored speech. He hasn't suspended the Constitution or voided elections he doesn't like. You don't have any evidence, you have feelz.

            What he is, is an asshole. So far, he's been an asshole to people who have been shitting on regular Americans for decades and snickering about it. That works for me; the louder they scream and gnash their teeth, the more it makes me think that for once they're feeling an ounce of the suffering they have poured on everyone else without interruption.

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:22PM (5 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:22PM (#1003296)

              The illegal assault on protesters on the private property of the DC church would like a word.

              Not to mention inhumane kids in cages concentration camps, calling the national guard over the immigrant caravan as a pure pblicity stunt, multiple threats and calls for violence against his political opponents which is speech specifically not protected by the 1st Amendment, his EO in violation of the 1st Amendment in retaliation against Twitter.

              Honestly I have no idea how you can ask "What leads you to say that Trump wants a totalitarian state?" with a straight face. Umm, his own words and actions? Or do you not remember his comments about running for a 3rd term or more? His attacks on the electoral system recently trying to set up mail voting as invalid?

              Truly this is embarassing for you here, but lucky for you the circle-jerk is alive and well so I'll be modded down and you'll be modded higher specifically because you prioritize feels over reals. https://www.britannica.com/topic/First-Amendment/Permissible-restrictions-on-expression [britannica.com] Or are we just ignoring the law these days in favor of convenient talking points?

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday June 04 2020, @10:07PM (1 child)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 04 2020, @10:07PM (#1003385) Journal
                Sorry, Phoenix666 normalized your bullshit. You no longer have anything to say.

                Honestly I have no idea how you can ask "What leads you to say that Trump wants a totalitarian state?" with a straight face. Umm, his own words and actions? Or do you not remember his comments about running for a 3rd term or more? His attacks on the electoral system recently trying to set up mail voting as invalid?

                Interesting how meager the efforts have to be in order to "want" a totalitarian state. Trump shoots his mouth off a few times and we're literally Hitlering.

                • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @12:08AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @12:08AM (#1003448)

                  You've reached the end of the line. Welcome to Stupid Town, where I'm rubber and you're glue.

                  "Shooting his mouth off" lol, how about "assaulting US citizens for a photo op"? Does that line up in that soft goop you call a brain?

                  I sure wish we could see an alternate reality where Obama said the same things about conservatives, I can already see the quantum foam forming around your lips as you develop an aneurysm.

              • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday June 05 2020, @02:06PM (2 children)

                by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday June 05 2020, @02:06PM (#1003739) Journal

                Not to mention inhumane kids in cages concentration camps

                Gosh, you sure had no problem with that policy when Obama did it. Then the explanation was to cut down on sex trafficking. Trump continued that policy through bureaucratic inertia, and suddenly it's all his fault and evil. OK, dude.

                calling the national guard over the immigrant caravan as a pure pblicity stunt

                When great numbers of people from other countries want to storm your border at once, they are not "immigrants," they are invaders. Calling out the National Guard in that case is a mild response.

                multiple threats and calls for violence against his political opponents which is speech specifically not protected by the 1st Amendment

                Um, yeah. Guess you had no problem with this [tmz.com], then? How about this [realclearpolitics.com]? Oh, but those don't matter because of your feelz.

                Meanwhile, Trump has been warning of crackdowns on rioting, violence, that is actually happening. Seems fair to me.

                Honestly I have no idea how you can ask "What leads you to say that Trump wants a totalitarian state?" with a straight face. Umm, his own words and actions? Or do you not remember his comments about running for a 3rd term or more? His attacks on the electoral system recently trying to set up mail voting as invalid?

                Honestly, I have no idea how you can claim "Trump wants a totalitarian state" when he has done nothing of the kind. It's intellectually dishonest. You're mad that he has wanted to defend the integrity of the US border, but somehow are willfully ignorant that every other prior President, even the holy Obama, did, too. You are willfully ignorant of the fact that protecting the country's borders is literally part of the President's job.

                Voting by mail is a controversial subject. So is electronic voting. Coming down on one side or the other of those questions does not make you a totalitarian, except in the minds of fevered nitwits.

                Truly this is embarassing for you here, but lucky for you the circle-jerk is alive and well so I'll be modded down and you'll be modded higher specifically because you prioritize feels over reals.

                Truly this is embarassing for you here, but lucky for you the circle-jerk is alive and well so I'll be modded down and you'll be modded higher specifically because you prioritize feels over reals.

                --
                Washington DC delenda est.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @04:15PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @04:15PM (#1003808)

                  Ok boomer

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @08:55PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @08:55PM (#1003950)

                    I am modding down Phoenix666, since after all he is The Number of the Beast, and the hometown of the Old Boomer Republican Beasts. Must hurt to be so old, and afraid, and vulnerable! It's like a cable news show could tell you what to think, and Buffalo Emerceny Response Team police could, like, just push you over. Scary times. Be Safe. #BunkerBoy #BabyGate

        • (Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:38PM (6 children)

          by TheGratefulNet (659) on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:38PM (#1003242)

          everything he says is lies.

          there is no public good from that.

          deplatform him.

          he's not helping. in fact, he's stirring the pot and he's the cancer this country needs to eliminate.

          deplatform him.

          we'll start the healing process as soon as that happens.

          --
          "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
          • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:40PM (2 children)

            by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday June 04 2020, @04:40PM (#1003285) Journal

            Sorry, censorship is fascism, always. We can't go around telling people what they can hear and see. Direct your energy to the people who listen and believe and follow

            --
            La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @08:25PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @08:25PM (#1003348)

              That is what Twitter did.

              Seems the liar-in-chief didn't much like it.

              • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday June 04 2020, @09:34PM

                by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday June 04 2020, @09:34PM (#1003366) Journal

                Twitter doesn't own the wire. They can't block your internet access. Whatever they do is their business and not even newsworthy.

                --
                La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:57PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:57PM (#1003324)

            Or instead the news could simply stop worshiping every word he says. No need to de-platform and open that can of worms when you can simply ignore the message. Yet somehow all the people who hate Trump can't stop talking about him. They follow Trump with more passion than his supporters. If you're tired of Trump than stop hanging onto every tiny little thing he does.

            Instead you guys are screaming everyone needs to censor the things I don't like because I don't have any self-control and can't stop looking at things I don't like. GROW THE FUCK UP. If you don't like something, avoid it yourself.

            What you said about him also applies to most salesmen, many CEOs, and a ton of other organizations. Go move to China were are all unconfirmed truths are illegal. That's your ideal country.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday June 04 2020, @11:09AM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 04 2020, @11:09AM (#1003128) Journal

        There's just no point in letting him speak if he is fundamentally incapable of conveying truthful information.

        Ok, what is the "no point"? "Fundamentally incapable of conveying truthful information" sounds like something worth knowing.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:00PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:00PM (#1003312)

      what kind of bitch modded this troll?

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @06:39PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @06:39PM (#1003884)

      Trump's statement was clearly an implication that looters should be shot. Something that has NOT been done in this country in decades. You do not shoot someone stealing property, as much as one's greed suggests that should be a good idea. Generally, the only time today shooting is justified is when life is threatened.

      But aside from giving you a lesson in appropriate use of force, let's talk about the President having no filters. No, that is not a good thing when it reveals that he really does not have much intelligence or any empathy. A leader needs to not just speak for the leader but for those who are led. (Everyone, not just those who elected him or kiss his ass, but that's a different subject.) He is not a private citizen. He is the President and should therefore be required to act with conduct becoming that office, but he does not.

      There are times for silence. Have you not heard that if one does not have something nice to say then one should not say anything? But Trump cannot, and I mean literally cannot, keep silent. His ego and his need for validation stemming from pathologic narcissism requires him to try and show how powerful and competent he thinks he is. That is not good, it is actually a symptom of his mental illness. It isn't that he just makes mistakes in what he says or how he says it. It's that it reveals that he is actually a very disturbed person and the nature of that disturbance means he should not be trusted with authority.

      Yet as a leader he should be demonstrating when he speaks what it is he believes people should be believing or doing. So when he says he wants police to be, "not so nice," to demonstrators, yes he is advocating that they should be more violent despite that even convicted criminals still have basic human rights. He legitimizes the conduct of Chauvin by so saying this even as he falsely mouths a call for justice. When he says that George Floyd hopefully thinks today is a great day he dismisses the concerns of those who are saying we should be listening to minorities and not supposing what they should be feeling, and by doing that legitimizes his followers to do the same. When he tells crowds at his rallies that he would like to punch protesters in the face and maybe they should be roughed up [snopes.com] then he cannot object when his followers actually become violent [theguardian.com]. He loses his moral authority to condemn such actions. (Plus, I'd love for you to cite where he actually has condemned such actions by name. Not just platitudes, but naming specific incidents he repudiates).

      There is no difference in what you claim - a "statement of intent" is the attempt to get people to think and act. That's incitement if the conduct is unlawful. Like "roughing up" and "punching" those who protest him. Incitement.

      No, a leader should be held to higher standards. Trump has failed in all these regards, is a sick man, and it is a shame that he has not yet been removed from office as he should have been.

      Once he is removed from office he can keep his Twitter or Gab account. What he says will still be just as heinous and stupid, but at least he will not have the legitimacy of speaking such things as the President of the United States.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Arik on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:07AM (4 children)

    by Arik (4543) on Thursday June 04 2020, @05:07AM (#1003074) Journal
    Correct.

    These people are not civil rights leaders, they're "civil rights" grifters.
    --
    If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @12:44AM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @12:44AM (#1003467)

      The irony of you calling these people grifters while supporting Trump, unbelievable.

      • (Score: 2) by Arik on Friday June 05 2020, @01:12AM (2 children)

        by Arik (4543) on Friday June 05 2020, @01:12AM (#1003479) Journal
        "Everyone that disagrees with me on anything supports Trump."

        Really if you can't turn on your brain you should quit wasting your time here. Go watch MSN or Faux.
        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @09:04PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @09:04PM (#1003955)

          NO, Arik, you are seriously a fucking Nazi, not by who you support, but by the policies you advocate. Sorry you cannot see it.

          • (Score: 2) by Arik on Friday June 05 2020, @11:15PM

            by Arik (4543) on Friday June 05 2020, @11:15PM (#1003995) Journal
            I'm actually the exact opposite of that. Try cleaning your lenses.
            --
            If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:45PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:45PM (#1003246)

    Well it is good for Trump that the GOP was so corrupt they managed to stack the courts. Not all speech is protected. Of course Trump's threat of murder can be downplayed by the sociopaths "just a joke or metaphor" or "he meant rubber bullets nit killing people" but we all know he threatened to murder US citizens.

    The U.S. Supreme Court often has struggled to determine what types of speech is protected. Legally, material labeled as obscene has historically been excluded from First Amendment protection, for example, but deciding what qualifies as obscene has been problematic. Speech provoking actions that would harm others—true incitement and/or threats—is also not protected, but again determining what words have qualified as true incitement has been decided on a case-by-case basis.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:50PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @03:50PM (#1003251)

    Hey genius, threats of violence are not protected speech.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:19PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 04 2020, @06:19PM (#1003317)

      threats of violence is the whole fucking point of government, you goofy bastard.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @12:43AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 05 2020, @12:43AM (#1003464)

        Shut up, Tom Cotton! You ought to resign!