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from the setting-a-breakpoint-so-humans-can-try-to-debug-a-code-(of-conduct) dept.
FreeBSD has announced a new LLVM-derived code of conduct.
According to a 2018 survey "35% were dissatisfied with the code of conduct adopted in 2018, 34% were neutral, and 30% were satisfied." So, they held another survey at the start start of June:
Which code of conduct should FreeBSD adopt?
An LLVM-derived code of conduct:
https://github.com/freebsd/core.10-public-docs/blob/master/CoC/llvm-based.mdA Go-Derived code of conduct:
https://github.com/freebsd/core.10-public-docs/blob/master/CoC/golang-based.mdRetain the current code of conduct:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200108075747/https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.htmlRESULTS
- 4% favoured keeping the current code of conduct
- 33% favoured the Go-derived code of conduct
- 63% favoured the LLVM-derived code of conduct.
Thus, the Core Team, following the preference of a majority of active
FreeBSD developers, adopted the LLVM-derived code of conduct.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:38PM (89 children)
Will I be kicked off if I say defunding the police is an asinine idea?
What about if I say Black Lives Matter is an awful militant organization that is dividing the country?
What if I say I would never kneel in front of black people to beg forgiveness for being of white race?
We all know how these codes of conduct go. It's a way to enforce a hard left politics on everyone. It has no function in engineering.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by meustrus on Wednesday June 10 2020, @02:46PM (42 children)
Can you explain to me what the police and BLM have to do with BSD engineering? Any such discussions in the development communication channels, including issues, pull requests, IRC, code comments, and commit messages, are irrelevant and likely to distract from the quality of the engineering.
It sounds to me like you're the one who wants to enforce politics on everyone.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:01PM (3 children)
If an engineering group needs a CoC, then the problems may already be too big to fix. Maybe.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:57PM (2 children)
Huge societal problems don't prevent good engineering.
Proof: existence of good engineering in this world.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday June 11 2020, @01:51PM (1 child)
Disagree.
Proof.
Huge societal problems cause Codes of Conduct.
Codes of Conduct prevent good engineering.
Thus.
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @03:55PM
Good. Now all you have to have are facts that back them up. Oops, fail.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:22PM (9 children)
You are correct.
It all has nothing to do with engineering which is my point.
However, the CoC enforcers have repeatedly shown that any opinions that don't match their hard Left political opinions no matter where expressed will get you "cancelled." Recall Mozilla and their former CEO Brendan Eich who was fired once it was discovered he spent his own money to exercise his political rights to donate to a group that was against the gay marriage referendum in California. Oh, he wasn't kicked out based on a CoC, you'll say. But he would be under FreeBSD's CoC, no doubt using the same logic Mozilla used. But I don't support that political position, you say, so he ought to be punished. That is not inclusion. That is mandating that only your viewpoint is allowed. This is just further politicization and intrusion of the Left in a place that used to (maybe a decade ago) not be under their thumb.
How on earth did engineering organizations get along CoC free before?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by meustrus on Wednesday June 10 2020, @04:43PM (1 child)
The logic Mozilla used is that their former CEO's political leanings was a bad look for the company. He was a prominent representative of the company, and they decided that their market would punish the company for the politics of its representative.
Not saying it's impossible for a lowly coder to be kicked out for the same politics. It's possible, though unlikely, for a prominent enough coder to create a similar PR problem. I don't think it would be covered by CoC, though, since everything is outside of development communication channels.
I can't speak for everyone, but I personally don't believe people ought to be punished for their beliefs. Punished for creating unnecessary arguments about politics in development communication channels, absolutely. But not for anything a person believes or says outside the project. Up to and including allowing contributions from convicted serial killers, as long as they aren't going around talking about the importance of culling the weak or whatever batshit craziness they believe.
Well, the assholes brought their asshole ideology to the project, and anybody that didn't like it left. Not a whole lot of people like it, though, so the project would then belong solely to the assholes.
This could work for a project with solid requirements. Throw it over the fence, get back good code. But it doesn't work so well when you have to communicate with users. Nobody wants to deal with the assholes. It's a great way for a project to die in obscurity.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 14 2020, @01:58PM
He hadn't merely donated to anti-Gay Marriage. He'd donated enough that it had to be reported as a political contribution (I forget if it was 1k or 10k, but it was a LOT OF MONEY), which is what lead to the internal politicking when it came out. This wasn't merely having a differing opinion, this was paying a donation sufficient to pay any of their developers for 2-3 months, and was about to increase his salary into the 6 figures. Mozilla's pay scales are insane for middle and upper management compared to the people actually producing the code. And if we want to talk about HIS code contributions: Javascript. If that isn't reason enough to fire him, I don't know what is!)
(Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:38PM (2 children)
Straight males generally don't go out looking for CoC, so they got on just fine.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:08PM
Whooosh!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @08:49PM
How would you know?? Judging by your penis obsession there is a bit to unpack there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @09:45PM (3 children)
To whom, *exactly*, are you referring?
And "Radical Leftists" or "Pink-haired SJWs" are not exact answers.
Names please. With links to the *specific* statements which informs your assessment of *those specific individuals*.
I'm not playing gotcha with you here either. Provide references to specific individuals and their involvement in specific acts of intolerance/censorship/general malicious jackassery and I will happily condemn those pieces of shit for what they are.
Please. Do tell.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @12:25AM (2 children)
Disingenuous. Look at the cases of David Bucci [prcg.com] or Alex Holowka. [nichegamer.com] From Brendan Eich through the guys fired for making a private dongle joke at a Python conference, the wordpress developer dumped for having a sex fetish, James Damore and recently the New York Times editor. All out of a job for violating the "safe space" of narcissists.
How many examples do you need? Just as with #MeToo [detroitnews.com] people have wised up. In the UK they even made "unfriendliness" [barristermagazine.com] a "non crime hate crime" [lbcnews.co.uk] so you'd not be able to tell crazies to get lost despite having freedom of association and the fact a large number of so called "hate crimes" are hoaxes. [usatoday.com] Nobody here can be unaware of such events and nobody should support empowering sociopaths to play victim and bully people.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @03:42PM (1 child)
And what do any of those folks or issues have to do with, *in your words* "CoC Enforcers"?
You moved the goalposts. Why would you do that? ISTR there are a number of folks that have created controversy WRT FOSS codes of conduct, yet you don't mention any of those folks.
Rather, you bring up several things that are completely unrelated to FOSS, or to Codes of Conduct.
Is that a reading comprehension failure on your part (odd, especially given that this whole topic is about the FreeBSD Coc), or do you have some sort of agenda that requires you to ignore the subject at hand? What a shame.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 12 2020, @06:18AM
Angry, white, heterosexual, protestant male, most likely, not getting enough CoC. Creating toxic environment. Unsafe at any peed. Would not hire again. One and 1/2 stars.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:35PM (25 children)
Don't you see your argument is why this whole thing is so absurd to begin with? All of the crap they're mentioning has nothing to do with anything related to coding. People want to bring all their bullshit politics into coding and then get butthurt when it doesn't work out however they hoped talking about they really wish they had a pussy instead of a dick was supposed to work out.
The whole thing is so damned stupid. It's the internet. If you're a transracial transgender one armed blind illegal immigrant gay depressed retard and want to take on the identity of 'normal healthy guy John Smith' then you can do it with 0 effort. 'Hi. I'm John Smith. Fuck off with everything else, let's get to coding.' You can even attend conferences without need to 'out' yourself. It's no big deal, unless you make it one. So people basically want to eat their cake, puke it out on everybody else, and have it still. Fuck 'em.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:52PM
Naaah. It just creates a management class who can rise by learning the process and not the necessary skill.
Identical to what has happened to all universities I've worked at. The "skill" class is at the bottom - that's trivial work stuff that you hire Chinese 21 year olds to do. The trick is to convert everything to "process" about which you become an expert.
Get the worker bees to document how to do stuff, then assemble these into rules that all worker bees must adhere to. Your job is to ensure correct process, i.e. make new hires read the rules (aka training). Then you hire at the bottom level and "train" them up. We're pretty much at that point with 3rd world applicants only applying.
(Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @04:37PM (10 children)
Actually, the main points [github.com] seem more like something your mother should (but apparently didn't -- bad on her) have taught you:
I didn't realize that being "friendly and patient" or any of those others were "hard Left" positions.
Or are you referencing stuff that isn't, in fact, in the CoC [github.com]? If so, you're either ignorant or being deliberately disingenuous.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:47PM (9 children)
This [archive.org] is the crap they had. The current version is rolling back most of the shit they puked out initially without having the balls to admit that this entire code of conduct stuff is complete nonsense that only exists because of virtue signaling and the fear of being seen as 'bad'.
There's a major problem with any avenue that drives a motivation to virtue signal. When people virtue signal they always want to push the envelope of unacceptability because it emphasizes their own righteousness. Historically religions were the obvious example. Christianity was a derivative of Judaism. And one way they chose to push the edge of virtue signaling was celibacy. Christian priests were so devout and devoted that they cast aside even sex. Of course, like with all virtue signaling, it's mostly bullshit. Behind the scenes the priests were of course getting off like everybody else to the extremes of modern times where diddling kids became a trend. What virtue! And the trend continues with the numerous modern 'secular religions'.
Virtue signaling is not a virtue, it's a fucking stain on this world. If you want to be a good person, be a good person. When somebody is trying to flaunt their virtue, or even worse impose it on others, they're likely playing the exact same role we've had with the ultra homophobic politicians who were deep throating more sausages on the weekends than vegans do when they think nobody's looking.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:59PM (6 children)
And now they don't. Your point?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:24PM (5 children)
The point is, the more shit you shovel into the gears of society, the faster it grinds to a halt.
Take note that when it does, all those nice things you now expect to be given you for "being good", will only be available in exchange for something tangible. If at all.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:43PM (4 children)
Non-sequitur much?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @08:32PM (3 children)
Feeling smart today?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @09:47PM (2 children)
I feel much the same as I do every day. Why do you ask?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @01:04AM (1 child)
To confirm the diagnosis, why else?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @05:28PM
I'm going to assume you're an ESL sort, as you appear to be unable to communicate clearly in English.
Please continue.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday June 11 2020, @04:41PM (1 child)
Er...are you sure about this? It's the Catholic priests who aren't allowed to marry; I assure you that there are plenty of Protestant pastors who are. There was a running joke in the denomination that I grew up in that the pastors couldn't wait until they graduated from seminary school before popping out their third or fourth kid already.
Or was this one of those dumb things that Paul said "well, I personally do this" in a letter and then everybody took it way too seriously for a couple hundred years
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday June 11 2020, @04:46PM
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/696 [historynewsnetwork.org]
*Hmm...when were the Vestal Virgins a thing?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 4, Insightful) by meustrus on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:08PM (12 children)
Let's say Adam is an asshole.
Let's say an issue is getting informal, and John feels comfortable letting slip that he's trans. Adam says some unkind things about that. Everybody gets into an argument about trans identity. Who is causing the issue in this situation? Adam, for attacking a fellow developer, or John, for bringing it up in the first place?
Let's say John never said anything. What if Adam looks into John Smith's Twitter history and finds out he was born a girl? Does more internet research, finds his dead name? Starts insisting on calling John Smith "Sally" and calling him a she in the issue tracker? Everyone else is confused. John experiences emotional pain just logging onto the issue tracker. Everybody gets into an argument about trans identity.
Who is causing the issue in this situation? Adam, for attacking a fellow developer, or John, for merely existing?
I too like the idea of a pseudonymous internet, where everybody is just a bit stream and we don't have to worry about the petty bigotry that divides us in the real world. I think most developers like that idea. The problem is that we don't live in that internet anymore. It's not hard to find out who someone is in real life. And the assholes out there, the ones who actually hate the meritocracy because they don't like the idea that some "transracial transgender one armed blind illegal immigrant gay depressed retard" might actually write better code than they do, those assholes will find out. Those assholes will bring that petty bigotry into every situation they can.
Yeah, as long as you can look like John Smith the white man.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:23PM (8 children)
Okay. So let's get this straight. I have something that I don't want anybody to know or talk about. And I decide to (1) put it on the internet and (2) talk about it. Did you know people are getting more stupid? Quite literally [sciencealert.com].
Beyond this, people need to stop lying to themselves so much. In general there's no real 'outting' of trannies (whom invariably are the source of this stupidity). It's just a collective game of The Emperor's New Clothes where finally the dumb little kid says, 'But mama - that's a dude in a wig!' to the gasps of the crowd who also know the exact same thing. This is true even in places like Thailand where they not only start boys on all sorts of drugs way early in life but where they also generally have a much more effeminate natural musculature and bone structure. Almost none of them pass or come even remotely close to it really, and they never will.
If somebody wants to dress up and pretend to be a girl, even cut off their dick and get some silicon stitched on your chest - okay, people have the right to do whatever they want so long as they're not hurting anybody else. But trying to force other people to play in the delusion is dumb. And just man up to your own decisions. If somebody maliciously calls you Adam instead of Glamorous Gloria then you call them an ass and get on with your life.
No. Once again what people choose to connect on the internet to their own persona is entirely up to them. See: Satoshi Nakamoto. Guy created, distributed, and led a world changing product. And nobody has any clue who he is in spite of *immense* effort at finding out simply because he chose to not mix real life and internet life. Clearly he's a wise man.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Wednesday June 10 2020, @08:24PM (2 children)
Yes, I agree. But a high degree of wisdom is even rarer than a high degree of intelligence, because you almost always need the latter to obtain the former, and most highly intelligent people just never get there regardless.
So what we actually have to deal with is a world of only moderately thoughtful, usually only first-level thinking people who are repeatedly surprised by the consequences of their own actions, and the actions of others, and the consequences of those other's actions as well.
In such a world, ingrained manners and respect would go a very long way towards insulating the vulnerable from such consequences, and the surprises delivered courtesy thereof, but... yeah, that's not the world we live in.
In fact, the Internet at large (and real life) is expanding a bumper crop of deeper penetrations of social tactics in the vein of ostracism and discrimination [both based variously on age, race, color, gender, sexuality, superstition or lack thereof, tattoos, piercings, place of residence, country of origin, native language, accent, credit, legal issues, weight, body odor, politics, number of parents, number of spouses... and probably a whole lot more that don't come immediately to mind].
These come in every flavor from silent elimination from consideration, to verbal/posted abuse, to sabotage, to outings, to assault, to murder and... really, everywhere in between. That's the reality of it all.
So while yeah, it'd be faaaabulous if everyone was smart, and wise, and close-mouthed about their particular characteristics... and if the other side of the equation was peopled by those who didn't feel any need to abuse those who aren't perfect candidate members for their preferred clique... however, the world doesn't work that way and is moving further away from such things all the time. Sad to say.
Hence codes of conduct. Because some (quite a few, actually) people behave poorly and without much — or any — concern for the people they are treating to their oh-so-correct points of view. Codes of conduct can, if done moderately well (perfection isn't going to happen, so it's pointless to even try to assert that only perfection will do), keep the nastiness down to a dull roar.
In the end, it makes no sense to let things go further into the shitter because they "ought" to be some other way, when [A] clearly they aren't that way, and [B] there's no perceptible chance they're going to go that way in either the short or the relatively long term.
If you don't want a code of conduct to bite you, don't be an asshole. Politeness and respect are their own rewards. They're always worth the candle, barring a pre-existing state of conflict. Sometimes, even then.
For those who can't manage that... yep, that's why codes of conduct come into being. And no, it's almost certainly not because these codes of conduct are mechanisms to discriminate against anything other than discrimination itself.
--
Give me ambiguity, or give me something else.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @10:47PM (1 child)
Not sure intelligence is prequisite to wisdom.
(Score: 2) by meustrus on Thursday June 11 2020, @09:20PM
Either intelligence or the good luck to follow only the right prophets.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by meustrus on Wednesday June 10 2020, @08:34PM (3 children)
Do you? Do you know what it is like to have a secret about yourself, something shameful that doesn't hurt anybody, something you can't change and you can't tell anyone about? Wouldn't it be so much better if you could just be honest with the world about who you are, and continue not hurting anybody?
Don't think of trans people here, think of gay people. You're asking them to completely hide their sexuality at the same time you are defending your right to say sexualizing things about women. Isn't that a double standard?
Or think of women. Are they supposed to hide that they are women? Do you seriously expect half the population to deep hide their identity on the scale of Satoshi Nakamoto?
Well, I can't say that I've looked at all that many pictures of Thai trans girls, so I guess I'll have to take your word for it. It's the internet, though. Are we talking about trans women using their face as an avatar? Again, I can't say I've seen that, so I guess I'll have to take your word for it again.
So I suppose that in the hypothetical situation where somebody is using for their avatar a photo of themselves in which you can clearly tell they are not a Woman™. Are you justified in saying what you see? Well, it's an avatar. When's the last time anyone said anything about anyone's avatar? And there's no reason to be uploading personal photos in any of these communication channels, ever, for any reason. So I really can't think of when would be an appropriate time to comment on a person's appearance.
So maybe you call the trans woman "he". This one's situational. What pronoun is everyone else using? If the answer is "she", then you're being deliberately confusing. Even if you don't care that it hurts the trans person, surely you care that everyone else knows who you are talking about.
Because if just one person is late to this group and doesn't have the amazing power you do to see a person's gender 100% accurately in tiny avatar photos, that person will have no idea who the fuck you are talking about. Someone will have to explain it, and there we go again, being an asshole has derailed the engineering discussion because we have to talk about gender politics again.
I believe we have a word for being deliberately confusing so that we have to talk about something completely off topic and controversial. It's called trolling. It's destructive to communities. It has no place in any meritocratic system.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @10:29PM
I hide the fact that I vaporize some ayrlcyclohexylamine (mostly Methoxieticyclidine, sometime Eticyclidone, use to do diphenidine but it's now as illegal as the grandaddy of ayrlcyclohexylamine: PCP) on Friday night and I am somewhat ashamed of this.
But drug use is a core part of my identity equal in importance to my sexuality, yet I won't meltdown in tears if someone tell me something like: you are a crazy fryed brain drug powered zombie junky. I would just shrug it off.
Maybe it's because I have a well paying job with gold plated working conditions, a house and a wife, but I have all that in spite of my drug use. I don't insist that people refer to me as the ayrlcyclohexylamine disciple, I don't require a special pronoun. I just do my "shameful" thing privately...
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday June 11 2020, @04:37PM
No, because this is a software project, and nobody needs to talk about any sexuality in the first place, either straight, gay, queer, up, down, strange, quark, or peppermint.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @06:37PM
You are aware of the Shia Labeouf flag incident?
https://country105.com/news/4184230/how-4chan-defeated-shia-labeouf/ [country105.com]
Given the drive many have to cause pain to those different from themselves, and how someone with specific differences might wish to show these things about themselves to one group, but not to another, it isn't hard to see that someone might present themselves in a potentially hostile environment differently then they would in another environment. They perhaps felt they could keep these two guises separate.
That is, until someone feels the need to dig, and if the digger is better at their craft than the person that chose to present themselves differently to different groups is at separating those personas, then comes the uncalled-for attacks on a person's identity. Even the Army had "don't ask, don't tell," which while it instilled on people that things they do might be shameful, it also came down on those that attempted to hurt people by outing them.
I think it is reasonable to have a CoC, that basically says treat people in a respectful fashion. We should be able to keep politics (and name calling) out of code writing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 12 2020, @06:35AM
Looks like somebody has had a "Crying Game" experience!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @08:34PM (1 child)
Reminds me of the recent election I worked at. Some guy named "Bjorn" wanted to vote but wasn't a major party member.
Me to coworker: "He isn't a major party member."
Bjorn: "She."
Coworker to me: "He'll need to fill out this form then."
Bjorn: "She."
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @09:05PM
Was he Bjorn again?
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday June 11 2020, @04:32PM
Yes.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:03PM
A Marxist organization exploiting the death of a black man to exert coercive political power without democratic accountability has more to do with everyone than individual racial or sexual characteristics. The irony that you could be prevented from making a disparaging aside in discussion, commits or code comments of an ideologically permissive, freedom orientated project is too much for many people. It would have been banned by the old CoC under the mere claim of "systematic oppression" which is ridiculous and unsupported by actual evidence.
People were not widely judged on racial or sexual characteristics until sociopathic, intersectional idiots opened Pandora's Box, rubbed everyone's face in their "identity" and created one-sided rules to effectively ban dissent or criticism. People have been warning about this nonsense since the ousting of Brendan Eich from Mozilla, the procedure has since been refined into something reminiscent of Soviet specialist baiting. [wikipedia.org] When "peaceful protestors" take to the streets and cause over $500 million of damage (in Minnesota alone) and the city then has the tenacity to ask for Federal assistance, people have more than a right to criticize the bullshit. People have a moral obligation to do so.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:33PM
well, to be fair, the new CoC says stupid shit like "egregious (subjective) violations outside of FreeBSD channels" (paraphrasing). So the OP could be in a political forum and still get the boot if FreeBSD were sufficiently Bolshevized.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:36PM (45 children)
Kneeling can be seen as a sign of respect, or it can be seen as a sign of submission. When putting one knee down was started by the BLM movement (yes, it was actually black people who started doing this), it was ment as the former. If you see this as the latter, it's because you choose to do so; it's because your little white supremacist echo chamber tells you that's how you're supposed to see it, so you can play the victim again.
BTW: When black football players started kneeling during the national anthem, wasn't it the retard-in-chief in the white house, who claims to be a great defender of Free Speech (tm) who threatened to have them fired ? Free speech defender my ass. It seems that white mysoginists only approve of free speech when it's white males doing it.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:51PM (11 children)
Now the mob (sorry, PROTESTORS) are commanding the police to kneel! kneel!
That sounds like a demand for submission to me.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:55PM
As opposed to the respectful attitude of police in the USA?
(Score: 5, Funny) by chromas on Wednesday June 10 2020, @04:40PM (9 children)
I could've sworn the current protests were triggered by a cop kneeling. Maybe he was holding it wrong. What's Apple's opinion on this?
(Score: 2, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:39PM (6 children)
So taking a knee is bad now? This is all so confusing how the rules keep changing.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Wednesday June 10 2020, @07:52PM (5 children)
When someone ends up dead from it, yes.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @08:33PM (4 children)
Let's not count those who were killed in the riots, then.
It makes the return on protest investment look awfully bad.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @08:52PM (3 children)
Ah yes, let us go back to pretending cops don't murder people and that white supremacy is a good cultural basis.
"That boy ain't right."
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @10:02PM (2 children)
This is the problem, we speak different languages. To most people "white supremacy" [newdiscourses.com] and "racism" [newdiscourses.com] have clear meanings, the left have redefined the words while being less than honest about what they mean when they use the words. In this way you hope to sneak bullshit against casual observers but to those of us paying attention, you people are simply liars.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @10:37PM (1 child)
So you're a reality denying feelz over realz fool. Got it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @12:43AM
Your comment is the polar opposite of reality and you're mentally ill.
Have a nice day.
(Score: 3, Touché) by coolgopher on Thursday June 11 2020, @04:09AM (1 child)
Too soon, poor taste, but sadly funny :(
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday June 12 2020, @03:02PM
It's a vet thing. You come out of service with a penchant for gallows and otherwise inappropriately dark humor.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @03:56PM (19 children)
The Kapernick knee during the national anthem you say was a sign of respect. To oppressed black people, I assume. But he deliberately chose to do it in such a way as to simultaneously DISRESPECT America by kneeling when everyone else was standing for the national anthem.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @04:45PM (18 children)
The *ideals* embodied in the constitution are much more important than a flag or a song.
Peacefully (and silently, in this case) calling out violence and casual brutality that flies in the face of those ideals shows *great* respect for America. Much more so than running people down [citylab.com] with [wikipedia.org] cars [cbsnews.com].
In fact, the difference is quite stark. One attempts to *peacefully* raise awareness of issues within our society, the other uses violence in an attempt to silence those attempts.
I'll give you one guess as to which is more respectful of the ideals and principles of the US Constitution.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:40PM (4 children)
The ideals are embodied in the flag and song as well.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:03PM (1 child)
Some claim that the flag and the song are more important than embracing those ideals.
I heartily disagree with that sentiment. In fact, pointing up where we fall short of those ideals while focused on the flag and the song is a powerful reminder that the ideals are what's important, not the symbols of them.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday June 12 2020, @03:05PM
Some people don't think things through, on either side of the issue. Getting massively butthurt over someone disrespecting either is just as stupid as not considering that nobody not already in your camp is going to listen to a word you say if you pick the most offensive method of protest at your disposal as a starting point.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by dry on Thursday June 11 2020, @06:29AM (1 child)
How so? I guess the song represents war monging but the flag? Are Americans striped stars or perhaps those stars are like the ones the kindergarten teachers gave out to the best behaved kids.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday June 12 2020, @03:12PM
Warmongering? Are you "special" or something? It was written by Francis Scott Key about his relief and rejoicing after a night of artillery bombardment during the war of 1812, which was his nation being invaded by the Brits.
The stars stand for the states, one each but none assigned any specific state. The stripes alternately stand for our liberty and the blood that was shed for it; white for the former and red for the latter.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:50PM (12 children)
I can only speak for myself on this one. If I'm driving, and a protest is suddenly in front of me, I will try to get away from it. You do all your marching, and I'll be on my way.
If I find myself driving, and a protest blocks a lot of cars together, but it seems like they're just marching through to get to somewhere else, no problem. I'll wait patiently until the march has moved on, then be on my way.
But if I'm driving, and a protest blocks my car or many cars, and then protesters surround my car, I will instantly assume they mean me harm, and I will drive over everyone in my way. Protesters have repeatedly surrounded people's cars, dragged them out of the car, and killed them. You surround my car, I assume you're trying to kill me. I will drive you down in order to save my life.
If you find yourself in front of a car that's being surrounded, I urge you to move immediately, because you are quite likely about to be run over.
If your parents never taught you not to play in the street, I honestly don't care. I don't care what color you are, what cause you're marching for, or who's being elected soon. If you're trying to kill me, I will kill you right back.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @08:01PM (9 children)
Can't wait for you to be in prison. Well, better you don't kill anyone, but you are definitely the type who should be under guard if you think someone yelling at you is justification for murder.
By your logic every black person should be allowed to shoot cops that approach them for fear of losing their life. Every person displaying a Confederate flag should be shot on sight as probably domestic terrorists, and every Republican should be stripped of their right to vote for electing Donald Trump.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @08:45PM (1 child)
Black people would have less cops coming after them if they weren't in the middle of committing crime.
Cause and effect. It doesn't take a genius, but maybe it does take at least an average IQ. Gentle Giant George eas a career violent criminal, and while what happened to him was wrong (and the police are being prosecuted for it), he lived like a thug and died like a thug. It's a dangerous life he chose.
Live an honest life for your own self-preservation if nothing else.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @10:24PM
Thugs die on their feet in fights. George was lying on the ground with someone kneeling on him. He died like a rug.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @09:48PM (6 children)
You can yell at me without surrounding my car. If you yell at me without surrounding my car, I won't do a thing to you. I don't want to do a thing to anyone.
If a crowd is simply walking by on both sides of my car on its way to somewhere else, I won't do a thing to them.
I shall now be very very specific since you seem to require it: if a crowd of people are all around my car, facing towards my car, and beating on my car in a seeming attempt to gain entry and/or break the windows, that is what I mean by being surrounded. I am then in definite fear for my life, and I will act accordingly.
Another factor is that my car has clearly marked handicapped plates. Because I'm handicapped. I can not physically get out of the car and run away. When it comes to "fight or flight", the flight option is sadly unavailable to me. So when faced between dying and driving the car forward regardless of who's in front of it, I'll drive.
You seem to think my life has no value that any protestor need respect. Well, I hope you spend the rest of your life in one of the Free Autonomous Zones, or whatever they're called; you should like that, away from horrible people like me who simply want to not be beaten to death.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @10:40PM (2 children)
You're nuts, must be a Fox viewer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @10:42PM (1 child)
Ugh, you've ended the argument with your rapier wit; thou hath slain me and now I die. thud
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @04:26PM
It wasn't wit, it was a simple descriptor of your "logic" as others elaborated on.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @11:11PM
You have an active fantasy life, friend.
Try not to confuse them with reality.
(Score: 1, Troll) by MostCynical on Thursday June 11 2020, @03:22AM
+1 loony?
+1 straw man (on fire)
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @04:08PM
You are likely legal to leave the area by driving through slowly. You would not be allowed to gun your engine and see how many you can get or try to force them away. You should also be on the phone to 911 as soon as possible and turn yourself in for questioning.
One way is using your car as an escape mechanism, the other is using your car as a weapon. Guess which is legal and which isn't? And yeah, have a good lawyer before you say anything, because one slip like you've done here will see you prosecuted.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @06:43PM
I will wait patiently for citations.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 12 2020, @06:40AM
I'm Antifa, you bigot! Already in your back seat, even before you got to the protest. Be afraid, be very af. . . . but, we all can see you already are. Next protest, we'll bring a "safe zone" for you.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @04:44PM (8 children)
Who knew Tim Teebow was a BLM supporter before it even existed?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 10 2020, @05:41PM (1 child)
So was Nancy Kerrigan.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:07PM
Well. That puts Tonya Harding [wikipedia.org] in a *very* different light.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @06:54PM (5 children)
The AC refered to kneeling in the context of the BLM movement. But I'm not surprised to see the typical trumptard point out the tiny flaw in the argument, while completely ignoring his comment about Trump threatening to have the players fired.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @07:55PM (1 child)
I think this is their attempt at grappling with reality, finally there is a minor shift towards anti-Trump sentiment around here. Perhaps some boomers are finally realizing that reality is different from all the conspiracy nonsense peddled by their conservative talk shows.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Kitsune008 on Thursday June 11 2020, @02:01AM
Please! Enough with the overly broad brush that seems to frequently used on Boomers.
I'm not singling you out. I did take note of the fact you commented: ...some Boomers..., and NOT 'all Boomers'. Thank you for that. :-)
But alas, your comment sparked the rant. Sorry.
Boomers are more diverse than we get credit for.
As an example, I am 60+ years old, Blackfeet Tribe(Native American), and am slightly to the left of Bernie Sanders for the most part...but voted for him both times...***sigh***
My kids and grandkids are constantly raiding my music files.(it spans from the 1960's to present day musicians)
Slightly over half of friends/acquaintances are 35 years old or younger.
I grow some incredibly dank medicinal cannabis, legally of course.
A good number of us are not 'hipsters', are not rednecks, are not city folk, but just a broad spectrum of USA culture and society.
I will admit that the stereotype of the Boomer was , sadly, earned by a slight, but more vocal majority. :-(
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @07:59PM (1 child)
You and your pal are the idiots for thinking I am some reflexive Trump supporter or that I support Presidentially-forced firing of players who choose to kneel.
This proves you can't have a discussion with some people. Your mind is closed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @09:53PM
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 10 2020, @08:37PM
Important thing is both kneeling trends were started by mediocre football players known more for their kneeling than their ability to play.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @01:03AM (2 children)
The retard who wrote the quote above seems to not understand that the occupant of the White House was not in position to threaten anyone with firing since they did not work for him. He said they ought to be fired. You seem to believe that he has no right of free speech to state his opinion. Are you by coincidence a white mysoginist [sic] male?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 11 2020, @04:17PM
You're correct. He is the President, and therefore not free to just, "state his opinion," in public. Not when he is empowered to speak for the entire country. He cannot speak his opinion without first stating what the position of the entire U.S. is. "He has the right to do this although I personally find it distasteful," would be closer to Presidential.
Mark that as #1 of the Stupid Things he does - runs his mouth loose when he, as President, should recognize the need to STFU.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Thursday June 11 2020, @04:24PM
To be fair, Trump himself seems to have a very poor understanding of what he can and can't do as well.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by tangomargarine on Thursday June 11 2020, @04:22PM
I've gotten to the point where I regard anything that comes out of the Orange Clown's mouth as white noise. Just look at what he actually does, because the words are just hot air and mostly meaningless.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"