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posted by Fnord666 on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:02AM   Printer-friendly
from the what-about-yellow-cards dept.

Trump Freezes Green Cards, Many Work Visas Until End Of Year:

President Trump on Monday extended a freeze on green cards for new immigrants and signed an executive order to suspend new H-1B, L-1, J and other temporary work visas for skilled workers, managers and au pairs through the end of the year.

The goal of the move is to protect 525,000 jobs as part of the White House response to job losses caused by the coronavirus pandemic, said a senior administration official, who spoke to reporters on the condition of anonymity. NPR first reported the impending order on Saturday.

"Americans have been hurt through no fault of their own due to the coronavirus," the official said. "And the president is prioritizing getting them back into the labor supply and getting them to work and standing on their own two feet again."

[...] But other workers will also be affected, including foreign au pairs who provide child care. Professors and scholars are not to be included in the order, the official said. There will be a provision to request exemptions. The order is not expected to affect immigrants and visa holders already in the United States.

[...] The order did not apply to H-2A agriculture workers, who Trump says are necessary to ensure grocery store shelves remain stocked with fruits and vegetables. Health care workers involved in treating coronavirus patients will also be exempt.

Also at CNET, NYTimes, WSJ


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  • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:27AM (21 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:27AM (#1011819)

    Now you might think with no H-1Bs, the tech industry will be forced to hire all those formerly unemployable highly skilled Americans who allegedly just didn't have any skills last week according to the industry standard rejection letter that all tech companies send to every American applicant.

    You would be wrong.

    The problem is not that the tech industry refuses to hire Americans. The problem is that the tech industry refuses to hire anyone at all. The problem is that the tech industry is built entirely upon fraud. You will see the fraud for what it is when the tech industry mysteriously doesn't collapse while H-1Bs become impossible and Americans tech workers remain unemployable.

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:52AM (11 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:52AM (#1011831)

    H-1B is fraud fodder

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:10AM (10 children)

      by Arik (4543) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:10AM (#1011858) Journal
      "H-1B is fraud fodder"

      It may well be, but there's a bigger problem.

      The reason companies like H-1Bs is that they're captive laborers. They don't get to negotiate, they don't get to accept a better job, they either do exactly as they are told or they get deported.

      This shouldn't be tolerated, not only because it takes jobs away from Americans, but because we do not permit involuntary servitude within our borders.

      If these H-1Bs are truly needed, then give them a proper green card.

      Either way, H-1B should be ended, permanently.
      --
      If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:15AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:15AM (#1011873)

        Do you actually even know the conditions for H1B? The IT companies are misusing them, but there are other people who could use H1B properly.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @06:19AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @06:19AM (#1011884)

          Do *you* know the conditions? Have you ever wondered why there's entry level positions that require years of experience as well as experience with various industry-only tools and technologies, yet still pay entry level salaries? It's somewhat of a nonstarter. And that's intentional.

          "We tried and advertised. Nope - we definitely can't fill this job."

          This is the problem about rules and regulations that make otherwise bad ideas sound okay. People (and companies) will just find a way to skirt the rules, getting to embrace that bad sounding idea without those pesky rules.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:10PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:10PM (#1011991)

          There is no proper use for a visa that's tied to a specific employer with no ability to change jobs without having to leave the country. It's an inherently abusive position to be in where the worker effectively has to take the conditions the employer is offering and in many cases are under immense pressure to not use the benefits given.

          Yes, there are situations where there's a legitimate need to bring in employees from out of the country, but the program itself is deeply problematic even if they do manage to crack down on the various bad actors, you'd still be left with employees that effectively have no rights as they can't enforce the rights they have without risking deportation.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @02:10AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @02:10AM (#1012260)

            I used to work for a small company where the owner did exploit people on the H-1 B Visas. There was this one very qualified person from another country that had her Master's in Accounting with many years of experience, English was like her fifth language and within a couple months she spoke it insanely well (better than many natives I would say), and pretty much everyone agreed she was by far the most intelligent person among us (I, for one, speak two other languages fluidly but not proficiently). She was intelligent in many many subjects. But she pretty much got paid minimum wage, worked long hours, no benefits, and didn't get paid overtime rates when she worked overtime (well, he didn't pay anyone overtime rates when they worked overtime).

            She eventually ended up going back to her own country (slightly after I left the company) and probably went back to the accounting firm she used to work for before coming to the U.S on the visa. The owner just got someone else from another country to abuse after and the cycle repeats itself over and over. Most everyone just goes back to their own country though at least one person did manage to eventually get his green card(?) after many years of being in the states (prior to me working for the company) and ended up leaving the company, going to school, and doing Lyft full time until he eventually got a better job (I'm sure he still goes to school as well but I haven't really kept up with him). He was on his way out of the company just as I was starting. The owner quite literally yelled at this person very loudly for doing basically nothing wrong at times. I suppose this person figured Lyft was better than working for my prior employer and left the company to do Lyft as soon as he was legally able to work in the U.S.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @10:12AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @10:12AM (#1011914)

        This goes well beyond H-1B visas. So much of academia is built on exploitation, including the very thing you're describing.

        There are a lot of foreign grad students, many from China and India, working in university labs. Pay is almost always horrendous for grad students whether they're domestic or international students. Faculty have the power to terminate assistantships without cause. For foreign students on J-1 visas, that usually means losing their visas and having to leave the country fairly quickly. The threat of having the assistantship revoked allows faculty to harass and abuse grad students or exploit them in ways like imposing excessively long work hours. If the student speaks up, they're at risk of losing their assistantship as retaliation.

        American grad students and postdocs are still subject to abuse but the leverage just isn't quite as strong. The threat is more along the lines of having to go to a different university or perhaps being blacklisted through a bad reference. This is still quite common, but the leverage isn't quite as strong against domestic students and postdocs.

        Academia is built on exploitation, whether it's grad students, postdocs, or adjunct faculty. The administrators cover up abuses and keep pay down for these groups while they're raising tuition and collecting salaries at least well into the six figure range. And if you're a faculty member who brings in a lot of grant (and F&A) money, you can get away with just about anything. Foreign students on J-1 visas who are funded by their advisors or departments might actually be subject to more exploitation than even people on H-1B visas.

        We shouldn't tolerate involuntary servitude and exploitation. But the issues run far deeper than H-1B visas.

        By the way, I work in academia. I've a postdoc. I've either directly witnessed or personally experienced everything I've described in this post. The abuses are rampant.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @11:37AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @11:37AM (#1011924)

          i hope your "apple" falls far from the tree ...

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:50PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:50PM (#1011978)

          Recently dug this out for another story here, Camile Pagila in 2011:

          Economic analysis is the first principle of Marxism. Professors who were genuine leftists would have challenged the entire economics-driven machinery of American academe the wasteful multidepartmental structure, the divisive pedantry of overspecialization, the cronyism and sycophancy in recruitment and promotion, the boondoggling ostentation of pointless conferences, the exploitation of graduate students and part-time teachers, the subservience of faculty to overpaid administrators, the mediocrity and folly of the ruling cliques of the Modern Language Association.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:59PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:59PM (#1011984)

          The abusive faculty are condemned to a lifetime of bullying Chinese 21-year olds. Nobody else can stand working with them.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:03PM (1 child)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:03PM (#1011965) Journal

        ... because we do not permit involuntary servitude within our borders.

        Wait . . . we don't? When did that happen?

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
        • (Score: 2) by ikanreed on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:10PM

          by ikanreed (3164) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:10PM (#1012053) Journal

          We should be understood to be "We the people" not the shitty government that's increasingly incapable of navigating the 21st century.

  • (Score: 1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:52AM (3 children)

    by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:52AM (#1011855) Homepage

    The tech industry won't die because they're both in bed with our "deep state" but also taking money from Chicoms and our so-called "allies" in the Middle-East. They can be kept alive as long as black budgets and slush funds are a thing.

    But if we can get more Americans in, it will be a good thing because the political diversity within big tech will increase.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:52PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:52PM (#1012067)

      people who mod 'troll' just b/c they don't agree should be put ion the firing line.

      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @06:33PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @06:33PM (#1012090)

        Well, there's no -1 Stupid or -1 Wrong, so....

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @06:28PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @06:28PM (#1012531)

      Where can I get some of this slush fund money? Do you have any contact info on the deep state? Sounds like a pretty good career, and the opportunity to make slug people angry is icing on that sweet cake.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by driverless on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:10AM (4 children)

    by driverless (4770) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:10AM (#1011859)

    Depends on how much of H1Bs are just cheap labour vs. genuinely irreplaceable people. Blocking H1Bs by assuming an H1B with a PhD in biochemistry can be replaced by Joe the out-of-work meat plant packer from Idaho could end up hurting the US more than it helps.

    Still, it looks good on paper and gets votes, so that's the only thing that matters.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by edinlinux on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:34AM

      by edinlinux (4637) on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:34AM (#1011875)

      Article and video on how to avoid hiring an American (in America!) so you can get that cheap slave labor brought here from overseas instead..

      https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2007/6/18/347849/- [dailykos.com]

      This is the root of the problem.

      It affects everyone in IT, where real median salaries & benefits are down about 50% from what they were in the 90s before the onslaught of cheap H-1B and L1 visa workers from India and other third world countries flooding our shores putting the Americans out of work (or working for cheaper pay).

      Like lots of folks, I also had to train my Indian replacement(s) shipped in on H-1Bs several times during my career while I (and the other Americans) were being shown the door...

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @06:38AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @06:38AM (#1011888)

      I think that sort of disingenuous suggestion isn't really adding much here. In the US the vast majority of people with STEM degrees do not work in STEM. And beyond this most jobs in STEM don't even really necessitate a STEM degree. On top of this education in India is a bit different than the US. Not only does India has a rampant and extreme problem with cheating at all levels, but they also have a rather different take on grades. Like many places in Asia, their definition of an 'A' is somewhat different than ours. In India it's generally 60-100 = A, 50-59 = B, 40-49 = C.

      I'm sure you're probably aware of the reputation of Indian software developers. It's not just a meme. They are genuinely awful on average. That doesn't mean all Indian developers are, by any means, but you are going to get a biased sample when you think about the guys whose career decision is to go build products for mediocre wages and less than desirable working conditions under billion dollar multinationals. "They're not sending us their best." So I don't know about Joe meat packer, but all other things being equal, I'd generally take a chemistry undergrad from a good US school over your average Indian biochem doctorate.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:11PM

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 24 2020, @02:11PM (#1011967) Journal

      Blocking H1Bs by assuming an H1B with a PhD in biochemistry can be replaced by Joe the out-of-work meat plant packer from Idaho could end up hurting the US more than it helps.

      That is probably a true statement on its face. However I suspect it represents a small minority of H1B's. That may be the justification for having the H1B program. However corporate America has twisted that beyond any resemblance to that purpose of obtaining someone with an important and obscure skill which cannot be obtained within the US.

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:14PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:14PM (#1011994)

      We've been overproducing virtually all of the necessary workers for those jobs for decades. There are tons of people out there right now with doctorates and nowhere to actually use them. If there's legitimately a shortage of candidates with a particular skill set, then there needs to be some sort of a program in place to address the issue.

      We've got a separate program for individuals that are highly qualified or brilliant. There is no cap on the number of those visas that are handed out, the only limitation is that you have to meet the relevant standards to get one. The H1B visa program is supposed to address shortages in the labor pool, but given the way that the education system has been mismanaged and the way that the visa program itself is mismanaged, it just serves to depress the number of people that are training to go into those fields. Why bother training to go into one of those fields if you're going to be competing with people that paid far less for their degree and don't need the level of income that you need?