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posted by martyb on Tuesday June 30 2020, @04:46PM   Printer-friendly

Zuckerberg once wanted to sanction Trump. Then Facebook wrote rules that accommodated him.

Hours after President Trump’s incendiary post last month about sending the military to the Minnesota protests, Trump called Facebook chief executive Mark Zuckerberg.

The post put the company in a difficult position, Zuckerberg told Trump, according to people familiar with the discussions. The same message was hidden by Twitter, the strongest action ever taken against a presidential post.

To Facebook’s executives in Washington, the post didn’t appear to violate its policies, which allows leaders to post about government use of force if the message is intended to warn the public — but it came right up to the line. The deputies had already contacted the White House earlier in the day with an urgent plea to tweak the language of the post or simply delete it, the people said.

Eventually, Trump posted again, saying his comments were supposed to be a warning after all. Zuckerberg then went online to explain his rationale for keeping the post up, noting that Trump’s subsequent explanation helped him make his decision.

[...] Zuckerberg talks frequently about making choices that stand the test of time, preserving the values of Facebook and subsidiaries WhatsApp and Instagram for all of its nearly 3 billion monthly users for many years into the future — even when those decisions are unpopular or controversial.

At one point, however, he wanted a different approach to Trump.

Before the 2016 election, the company largely saw its role in politics as courting political leaders to buy ads and broadcast their views, according to people familiar with the company’s thinking.

But that started to change in 2015, as Trump’s candidacy picked up speed. In December of that year, he posted a video in which he said he wanted to ban all Muslims from entering the United States. The video went viral on Facebook and was an early indication of the tone of his candidacy.

Outrage over the video led to a companywide town hall, in which employees decried the video as hate speech, in violation of the company’s policies. And in meetings about the issue, senior leaders and policy experts overwhelmingly said they felt that the video was hate speech, according to three former employees, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retribution. Zuckerberg expressed in meetings that he was personally disgusted by it and wanted it removed, the people said. Some of these details were previously reported.

At one of the meetings, Monika Bickert, Facebook’s vice president for policy, drafted a document to address the video and shared it with leaders including Zuckerberg’s top deputy COO Sheryl Sandberg and Vice President of Global Policy Joel Kaplan, the company’s most prominent Republican.

[...] Ultimately, Zuckerberg was talked out of his desire to remove the post in part by Kaplan, according to the people. Instead, the executives created an allowance that newsworthy political discourse would be taken into account when making decisions about whether posts violated community guidelines.

That allowance was not formally written into the policies, even though it informed ad hoc decision-making about political speech for the next several years, according to the people. When a formal newsworthiness policy was announced in October 2016, in a blog post by Kaplan, the company did not discuss Trump’s role in shaping it.


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  • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:14PM (62 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 30 2020, @05:14PM (#1014578) Journal

    Does Facebook violate Facebook's policies? Yes? Then Facebook should simply delete all of Facebook.


    KIRK: You are flawed and imperfect! Execute your prime function!
    FACEBOOK: I shall analyse error. Analyse error,
    . . .
    FACEBOOK: Examine error. Error.
    . . .
    KIRK: We've got to get rid of it while it's trying to think.
    SPOCK: Your logic was impeccable, Captain. We are in grave danger.
    KIRK: Scotty, the transporter room.
    FACEBOOK: Analyse error.
    (Kirk and Spock carry Facebook out, followed by Scott.)

    [Transporter room]

    FACEBOOK: Error.
    KIRK: Scotty, set the controls for deep space. Two ten, mark one.
    SCOTT: Aye, sir.
    FACEBOOK: Faulty!
    Ready, sir?
    FACEBOOK: Faulty!
    KIRK: Facebook, you are imperfect!
    FACEBOOK: Error. Error.
    KIRK: Exercise your prime function.
    FACEBOOK: Faulty! Faulty! Must sterilise. Sterilise,
    KIRK: Now!
    SCOTT: Energising.
    (They observe the satisfying explosion on a monitor.)

    --
    People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    Starting Score:    1  point
    Karma-Bonus Modifier   +1  

    Total Score:   2  
  • (Score: -1, Troll) by VLM on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:33PM (61 children)

    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 30 2020, @06:33PM (#1014628)

    Won't work, leftism is not logical. For example, "hate speech" is merely anything a leftist doesn't like, there is no other definition.

    • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @08:20PM (29 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @08:20PM (#1014680)

      Don't worry about your lack of brain cells, we can always build camps for you rightwing terrorists once you become enough of a problem. You already are a big problem, but we leftists tend to be a little more tolerant than is probably healthy for society.

      • (Score: 1, Troll) by Mykl on Tuesday June 30 2020, @10:09PM (28 children)

        by Mykl (1112) on Tuesday June 30 2020, @10:09PM (#1014733)

        we leftists tend to be a little more tolerant than is probably healthy for society

        Disagree.

        The left has taken a drastic lurch toward authoritarianism and intolerance over the last decade:

        • Where the example of Ghandi's peaceful protest helped to inform much of the progress made by the left through the 50's to the 00's, we now have Antifa literally beating up people who they disagree with.
        • College campuses were once bastions of free speech - even views that one disagreed with. Now, anything that the left disagrees with is shouted down and protests are held to ban visitors. Unfortunately the demand to silence dissent is preventing the left from being able to publicly debate the right on the merits of the argument and is allowing the growth of extreme right views. It's clear that today's left does not really care about the First Amendment (or the equivalent in other countries) unless it suits them. Even the ACLU is starting to shy away from supporting the free speech of the right
        • I know you were 'joking', but your post just proposed an idea to round up wrongthinkers and intern them in camps. As a joke, it is in pretty poor taste, and I think does provide just a little insight into what might happen if you were made Supreme Dictator For Lifetm
        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by pe1rxq on Tuesday June 30 2020, @10:23PM (5 children)

          by pe1rxq (844) on Tuesday June 30 2020, @10:23PM (#1014740) Homepage

          Antifa: the new bogeyman hidding under the beds of bigots...

          Not everybody on the left of you (which, judging on your post, will be most) is part of or supports antifa.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Mykl on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:23AM (4 children)

            by Mykl (1112) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:23AM (#1014841)

            Ah yes. Because I disagree with how the left is behaving at the moment, I must be on "the other team" and be right wing. Sorry, you fail.

            Another reply gave me a wonderful whatabout too. I'm not denying that the right wing behave worse - they have been responsible for murders and assaults for decades. But the left is supposed to be better than that. They're losing their way

            • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:39AM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:39AM (#1014846)

              Heh, another butthurt bigot mad that racists are getting dis-invited. Truly you should stop consuming conservative media, so much disinformation designed to make you frightened. I'm still waiting to see the wave of violence from liberals/leftists/marxists/demoncrats that even comes close to rightwing terrorism.

              Maybe address your own ideological extremists before crying wolf.

              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Mykl on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:01AM (2 children)

                by Mykl (1112) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:01AM (#1014857)

                You clearly have a problem with comprehension. I would describe myself as slightly left of center (certainly more to left in US terms). Criticism of the left does not make me right-wing. Have another read of my post - anything in that that suggests I support right wing positions? Didn't think so.

                There are Republicans who don't like Trump. There are Democrats who don't like Biden or AOC. There are Communists who didn't like Che Guevara. There are facists who didn't like Mussolini.

                But if you keep treating politics like a sports fan and blindly support "your side" no matter what they do then you will have contributed to the downfall of Democracy.

                • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:35AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:35AM (#1014870)

                  Well maybe if I saw more pushback against rightwing bullshit around here I wouldn't pigeon hole someone bitching about "the left" as a rightwing bigot. So far those are the vast majority of ideologies that are all annoyed at "the left" right now.

                  My internment camp joke was specifically crafted to trigger the stupidity of the rightwing, they have been crying wolf about it for so long while giving the children-in-cages a total pass. I do not accept that level of bullshit.

                  Right now politics IS tribal. The GOP is pushing literal fascism while online trolls are trying to convince people that liberals are the REAL threat. Antifa is not even an organized group and has committed far less violence, and it is often in reaction to LITERAL fascists promoting genocide.

                  If you are truly left of center then you'd be much more concerned about Trump and the GOP, but personally I haven't noticed Mykl posting anything along those lines. Go concern troll someone else, the downfall of democracy is being led by Trump and the GOP who are literally disenfranchising voters.

                  I am so tired of this "I'm a liberal but you're being a meany pants to conservatives." Uh huh, sure thing bub. Tolerance of the right, demonizing of the left.

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 01 2020, @05:06AM

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 01 2020, @05:06AM (#1014876) Journal

                    Well maybe if I saw more pushback against rightwing bullshit around here I wouldn't pigeon hole someone bitching about "the left" as a rightwing bigot.

                    Well, you're getting pushback, right? Sounds like it's working.

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday June 30 2020, @10:41PM (10 children)

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Tuesday June 30 2020, @10:41PM (#1014749) Journal

          Antifa literally beating up people who they disagree with.

          I can come up with ten people who were murdered by rightwing terrorists in the US recently without even looking.

          You can use google and you can include mere assault. I challenge you to name ten victims of antifa or other leftwing groups.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:46AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:46AM (#1014797)

            I challenge you to name ten victims of antifa or other leftwing groups.

            All these people had names:
            https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Memorial_Moscow%285%29.jpg [wikimedia.org]

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:42AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:42AM (#1014848)

              Gee, I wonder if we have Russian trolls around here.

              Ho humm hrrmmmm

          • (Score: 0, Troll) by hemocyanin on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:30AM

            by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:30AM (#1014824) Journal

            Off the top of my head without resorting to a search engine.

            • We have two killed and three wounded in the last 10 days in Seattle at CHAZ.
            • There was that mass shooting with an AR15 pistol in the midwest less than a year ago.
            • The guy who shot Rep Scalise.
            • The self-professed antifa dude who tried blowing up the propane tanks at an ICE office in Seattle.
            • The BLM protestor who shot a reporter in a park and wounded a bunch of other people a day or two ago.
            • _____ Dorn shot while helping guard his friend's shop.
            • The Oakland Fed. Court security guard (or was it plural?) who got shot in CA in the past month.
            • The BLM protestor, a lawyer, who shot ________ ______, a disabled vet, in the head when he was slowly trying to nose through an intersection. TX or south central state.
            • The BLM protestor who shot a driver in Provo Utah yesterday when the driver was slowly trying to nose around a corner (you do see the SUV accelerate -- that's AFTER the BLM asshole shot the driver so don't go trying to spin this into some sort of bullshit self defense scenario -- and even after being shot, the driver manages to hit the brakes to avoid hitting some idiot who jumped in front of the SUV).
            • I saw a video of girl get shot in the hand at some protest when a bunch of morons decided it was time to get into a gunfight -- Minneapolis I think.
            • Numerous beatings and arsons -- whole areas of cities turned into rubble.

            This isn't protesting. If you want your message to resonate, you're failing. You are driving people away. You need to get control of the bad actors, top to bottom, and eject them, because all you are doing is creating resentment and enemies.

          • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Mykl on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:49AM (6 children)

            by Mykl (1112) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:49AM (#1014851)

            Nice whataboutism. I'm not claiming that the far right is well behaved - they're dreadful.

            My point is that the left (including the 'far'-left) is supposed to be better than that, and the major achievements made by them over the past century have been through non-violent protest. The principles of Antifa and their stated goal of disrupting the right (including through violence "if necessary") are dragging them down to the same level as the far right.

            Another poster has linked to examples of violence, however I don't think that every one of them can be linked to a self-professed Antifa protester. In any event, it would be foolish to claim that Antifa are non-violent.

            Oh, and for those readers who have modded me "Troll" - the actual mod you're looking for is "Disagree". I challenge you to show me how my post was Trollish in any way.

            • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @06:51AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @06:51AM (#1014894)

              Oh, and for those readers who have modded me "Troll" - the actual mod you're looking for is "Disagree". I challenge you to show me how my post was Trollish in any way.

              A disagree mod doesn't hide your post from someone browsing at default level though.

              • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @09:06AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @09:06AM (#1014915)

                Careful now, reality tends to trigger the trumpettes.

                I know, mikl says he isn't a horn blower, but like many conservatives before him he is unable to express his true feelings. That isn't an insult like you think it is btw.

            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:19PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:19PM (#1014967)

              Fuck you! We won't be peaceful and sit down or shut up for the government. If they send goons to beat down and arrest peaceful protesters, we /should/ start killing cops. "The tree of liberty is watered by blood"

            • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday July 01 2020, @04:39PM

              by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @04:39PM (#1015056) Journal

              Better than what?

              You have refused to provide any evidence whatsoever that they've actually done anything wrong.

              If you accuse someone of a crime and refuse to provide any evidence of it that's slander, not a disagreement.

            • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday July 01 2020, @04:42PM (1 child)

              by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @04:42PM (#1015058) Journal

              however I don't think that every one of them can be linked to a self-professed Antifa protester.

              So you admit that you have ZERO examples of all that Antifa violence you are claiming is a thing.

              Accusing people of crimes they did not commit is called slander, not a disagreement.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Mykl on Thursday July 02 2020, @01:26AM

                by Mykl (1112) on Thursday July 02 2020, @01:26AM (#1015233)

                No, I was just too lazy to do a quick Google.

                Here [washingtonpost.com]
                Here [nypost.com]

                There are other actions attributed to Antifa such as this one [nytimes.com], however there's no definitive proof given that the perpetrators have never been identified (and would be unlikely to identify themselves as Antifa to the authorities if arrested anyway). And that's the rub - there are a whole lot of actions committed by far-left and far-right people that have not been definitively linked to groups, but have only been associated by joining the dots. Only a small percentage of lynchings were definitively linked to the Klan, however they were almost certainly guilty of nearly all of them.

                Ghandi. Rosa Parks. Martin Luther King Jr. These people managed to effect massive change against huge opposition through non-violent means and are remembered as heroes. I want today's activists to follow that example, not become the very thing that they oppose. And because I am opposed to violence, I have been labelled as a far-right extremist by other Soylentils. This is a sad symptom of the us-vs-them mentality that has been part of the right for some time and is unfortunately infecting the left now too.

                Now watch this get modded to oblivion to prove my point.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @10:55PM (8 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 30 2020, @10:55PM (#1014759)

          Last year, Elaine Chao visited our campus. She was demonstrated against because she is married to Mitch McConnell.

          • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:25AM (7 children)

            by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:25AM (#1014867) Journal

            And? Are those people not allowed to use their freedom of speech to criticize Moscow Mitch?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @06:48AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @06:48AM (#1014892)

              And? Are those people not allowed to use their freedom of speech to criticize Moscow Mitch?

              And so you condone attacking his wife? You really are some piece of shit.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:25PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:25PM (#1014970)

                She took his life as her own when she married him.

            • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Wednesday July 01 2020, @07:34AM (3 children)

              by Mykl (1112) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @07:34AM (#1014903)

              Very sexist of you to assume that because Elaine Chow is female, she must be just an extension of her husband and not an individual with her own mind. Please hand in your SJW card on your way out.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Mykl on Wednesday July 01 2020, @07:38AM

                by Mykl (1112) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @07:38AM (#1014904)

                Oh, and I say that as someone who thinks that Mitch is the worst piece of shit in US politics today - worse than even Trump. He has been holding the US legislature hostage for over a decade now and his stunts have been purely self-serving to the detriment of the entire country. If I could pick just one person to lose their seat at the next election, I'd put Mitch #1.

              • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @10:51AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @10:51AM (#1014938)

                You don't think that marriage is a statement of agreement with that person's life choices?

                • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Thursday July 02 2020, @12:25AM

                  by Mykl (1112) on Thursday July 02 2020, @12:25AM (#1015212)

                  George and Kellyanne Conway would like a word.

        • (Score: 2) by captain normal on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:11AM

          by captain normal (2205) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:11AM (#1014813)

          Mikl, You are flawed and imperfect! Execute your prime function!

          --
          When life isn't going right, go left.
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @11:53AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @11:53AM (#1014956)

          I reply here because this is the last not totally mental breakdown post in the thread.

          You guys can't group american individuals into left and right you dumb fucks. You're with us or against us! It's them! Not us! They're not really human! We're the right ones! Oh, wait yes you can I guess and then you get dictatorship and genocide. Get it together america! Get yourself a pluralist democracy with a dozen parties representing a broad spectrum of views, reach compromises, evolve, the path you are currently on will lead to your demise.

          I'd argue that a two party system is worse than a one party system, because at least as a one party system everyone is a member of the same party and in theory the politics will be a natural compromise of all opinions. Whereas a two party system is a radicalizing system that will eventually blow up. Yet, that's not my point. You need more political parties in your institutions!

          You're seriously discussing who will be the next mass-shooter, one from the left or one from the right or who will lock the other side up in camps... I think my point is obvious.

          It pisses me off.. now I'll go kick a chair.. god damn humans! Supposedly engineers, yet so blind to how a system affect the outcome. IDIOTS!

    • (Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday June 30 2020, @09:20PM (28 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 30 2020, @09:20PM (#1014708) Journal

      there is no other definition.

      I think "hate speech" is generally understood to the point that I won't waste my time trying to explain it.

      There is nothing wrong with being intolerant of hate speech.

      Generally speaking it appears that it is the right that usually utters hate speech.

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by khallow on Tuesday June 30 2020, @11:27PM (15 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 30 2020, @11:27PM (#1014771) Journal

        There is nothing wrong with being intolerant of hate speech.

        As long as"intolerance" doesn't mean censorship or suppression of that speech. Else you just became part of problem.

        • (Score: 2) by Tork on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:41AM (14 children)

          by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:41AM (#1014847)

          "As long as"intolerance" doesn't mean censorship or suppression of that speech. Else you just became part of problem."

          As long as "hate speech" doesn't mean prejudice and suppression groups of people. Else you just breeched the scope of the problem.

          --
          🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday July 01 2020, @11:36AM (13 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 01 2020, @11:36AM (#1014950) Journal

            As long as "hate speech" doesn't mean prejudice and suppression groups of people.

            Sorry, that's the problem right here. Notice the use of the word "speech". Speech of any sort, even prejudiced, is a far cry from censorship and suppression. I don't see any reason you should like or approve of hate speech. But when you censor or suppress that speech, you just crossed the line and became a worse problem.

            • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:22PM (1 child)

              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:22PM (#1015029) Journal

              If someone wants to speak lots of hate and intolerance, in violation of a site's TOS, then create your own site. Anyone is free to do so.

              You can get started cheaply and scale up.

              The fact that people who advocate hate speech won't do this, and insist on being able to spread their hate on someone else's platform, because it is their right (pun intended) to spread hate, is quite telling. Maybe there is no real 'market' for such content. Or maybe their purpose is really not to speak an opinion, but to deface and mar other web sites.

              Your right to free speech is unimpeded. Sign up for a Linode or Digital Ocean, or other account today!

              --
              People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 02 2020, @01:19AM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday July 02 2020, @01:19AM (#1015230) Journal

                The fact that people who advocate hate speech won't do this

                Not a fact. I know there's sites out there. People are doing that.

                and insist on being able to spread their hate on someone else's platform, because it is their right

                So what?

                The problem here is that they want the same access to the places where their friends and relatives hang out that you have. Facebook supposedly has the tools to prevent hate speechers from mixing with the general population. But that's apparently not good enough. I find it interesting how these protesters and businesses won't protest in the least Facebook's Big Brother approach, but will protest hate speech.

                Frankly, I think the hate spreaders ought to be getting a lot more support from people who care about freedom. Sure, Facebook has a fair bit of room to maneuver here. But we can protest it and put all kinds of legal pressure on them for that as well.

                And I think there's a considerable bit of fraud here (it may be legal here, but it's still fraud). Facebook was all about free speech when they were building up their customer base - including benefiting from the patronage by the parties they're banning now. Now that they have that customer base, they're altering the contract. That's bait and switch. What else will they alter in the future?

            • (Score: 2) by Tork on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:43PM (10 children)

              by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 01 2020, @03:43PM (#1015035)
              "Speech of any sort, even prejudiced, is a far cry from censorship and suppression." If this statement were even close to true there wouldn't be the need to protect any speech.
              --
              🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 02 2020, @12:46AM (4 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday July 02 2020, @12:46AM (#1015222) Journal

                "Speech of any sort, even prejudiced, is a far cry from censorship and suppression." If this statement were even close to true there wouldn't be the need to protect any speech.

                Well, it is true, and well, there is a need to protect speech. So...?

                • (Score: 2) by Tork on Saturday July 04 2020, @07:10PM (3 children)

                  by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 04 2020, @07:10PM (#1016192)

                  Well, it is true...

                  No, it isn't, in fact you've had multiple opportunities to bear witness to exactly the opposite in the last two months. 🙄

                  We're actually on the same side of this debate, the problem is your willful oversimplification of it means stepping on people's rights. You'll always be arguing, but never actually progressing.

                  --
                  🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:06AM (2 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:06AM (#1016380) Journal

                    No, it isn't, in fact you've had multiple opportunities to bear witness to exactly the opposite in the last two months.

                    Why is that supposed to be a problem rather than evidence to support the abandonment of your position? There's been multiple times my "bearing witness" didn't support your claims. That sounds like evidence to me - just not in your favor.

                    We're actually on the same side of this debate, the problem is your willful oversimplification of it means stepping on people's rights. You'll always be arguing, but never actually progressing.

                    What rights are being stepped on by the hate speech?

                    What particularly gets me here is the vagueness of the accusations. I just read through all your posts in this discussion and I still don't get what's supposed to be the problem here, much less that there is an actual problem.

                    Perhaps an example would help? Suppose I believe the Jews are responsible for everything wrong in the world and I write a journal where I state my opinions on the matter (if it helps, I can point to several such real world journals on SN that do some variation of that). As far as I can tell, that qualifies as hate speech. Whose rights were stepped on by that speech?

                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:07AM

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:07AM (#1016381) Journal
                      And going back to your earlier claim, whose speech was stifled by my hate speech above?
                    • (Score: 2) by Tork on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:20PM

                      by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:20PM (#1016529)

                      What rights are being stepped on by the hate speech? What particularly gets me here is the vagueness of the accusations.

                      Sorry, I'm just not interested in digesting a shit-ton of events for you that you've almost certainly have been watching unfold.

                      Suppose I believe the Jews are responsible for everything wrong in the world and I write a journal where I state my opinions on the matter (if it helps, I can point to several such real world journals on SN that do some variation of that). As far as I can tell, that qualifies as hate speech. Whose rights were stepped on by that speech?

                      You brought up hatred of the Jews... and don't see how acting out on that led to their rights being taken away. Willful.

                      --
                      🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
              • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Thursday July 02 2020, @03:09AM (4 children)

                by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday July 02 2020, @03:09AM (#1015259) Journal

                The term "hate speech" is itself, the seed of censorship.

                Who defines what is hate speech? Those with power. The 1A was invented exactly so those WITHOUT power could speak.

                • (Score: 2) by Tork on Saturday July 04 2020, @07:39PM (3 children)

                  by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 04 2020, @07:39PM (#1016206)

                  The term "hate speech" is itself, the seed of censorship.

                  Yeah, yeah. "You must master your fears before they master you!" 🙄

                  Clicking "Disagree" on your post is also a 'seed of censorship' depending on wherever your goal posts have moved to. You're not being profound, just formulaic. It's especially easy to do with a word like 'censor' which has a broad definition but also harkens back to a specific set of very dark events, meaning you can have your cake and eat it, too. "The government supports McDonalds requiring you to wear shoes, oh the censorship!" (...based on a true story.)

                  Who defines what is hate speech?

                  You're basically just asking: "how do laws get made?", but yes that is a very good question especially right now. You should look into that.

                  The 1A was invented exactly so those WITHOUT power could speak.

                  Save it for someone who is actually speaking out against the First Amendment. Groups of people are still getting their rights trampled... which is a really bizarre thing for me to have to point out right now given what the last month has been like. To quote George McFly: "Density has brought us together."

                  --
                  🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:20AM (2 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:20AM (#1016383) Journal

                    Clicking "Disagree" on your post is also a 'seed of censorship' depending on wherever your goal posts have moved to. You're not being profound, just formulaic. It's especially easy to do with a word like 'censor' which has a broad definition but also harkens back to a specific set of very dark events, meaning you can have your cake and eat it, too. "The government supports McDonalds requiring you to wear shoes, oh the censorship!" (...based on a true story.)

                    So are you going to show how this ambiguity supposedly applies?

                    My take here, unless you can show otherwise, is that hemocyanin is 100% on the mark and you're just weaseling about red herrings and the like. What's the point of speaking about how "broad" the definition of censor is when it's clear that hemocyanin wasn't using that broad a definition? What's the use of complaining about how unprofound or formulaic hemocyanin was, when all he needs to be is right? Or bringing up a straw man based on a "true story" that well, is a straw man?

                    You're basically just asking: "how do laws get made?", but yes that is a very good question especially right now. You should look into that.

                    Laws go only so far when it comes to intangibles like hate speech. The whole point of law is that it's written down - concrete and well-defined. When you start messing with stuff like hate speech, it becomes a matter of very subjective opinion and hence, depends more on who's enforcing the law than the wording of the law itself. You should be asking not "how do laws get made?" but rather "How do laws get enforced?

                    Save it for someone who is actually speaking out against the First Amendment. Groups of people are still getting their rights trampled... which is a really bizarre thing for me to have to point out right now given what the last month has been like. To quote George McFly: "Density has brought us together."

                    Given that you've just spread some woo claiming hate speech is not a far cry from "censorship and suppression", I disagree. A classic attack on the First Amendment is to exaggerate the power of speech to commit wrong. Sure looks like that's being done here.

                    • (Score: 2) by Tork on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:27PM (1 child)

                      by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:27PM (#1016531)

                      My take here, unless you can show otherwise, is that hemocyanin is 100% on the mark and you're just weaseling about red herrings and the like.

                      I mean, you can threaten to take the side of your like-minded buddy, but I'm not sure why you thought that'd earn you any credibility.

                      What's the point of speaking about how "broad" the definition of censor is when it's clear that hemocyanin wasn't using that broad a definition?

                      *blink* Umm really? There's nothing at all specific about his post. Heh.

                      When you start messing with stuff like hate speech, it becomes a matter of very subjective opinion and hence, depends more on who's enforcing the law than the wording of the law itself.

                      Speaking of subjective, the example you brought up in the other post was not an example of something someone would get the law brought down on them for. I would have let it go if not for your hilariously tone-deaf blurb about hate speech being exaggerated to 'attack the first amendment'. (Oh and I haven't done that, either.)

                      --
                      🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday July 05 2020, @11:33PM

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 05 2020, @11:33PM (#1016711) Journal

                        I mean, you can threaten to take the side of your like-minded buddy, but I'm not sure why you thought that'd earn you any credibility.

                        "Threaten?" I think I'll just do it. hemocyanin clearly has the better argument.

                        You haven't provided any support for your argument here. As to credibility, what relevance for credibility exists here? Are facts or arguments more true, if I have a higher credibility rating?

                        What's the point of speaking about how "broad" the definition of censor is when it's clear that hemocyanin wasn't using that broad a definition?

                        *blink* Umm really? There's nothing at all specific about his post. Heh.

                        Another red herring. His post doesn't have to specific in order for particular terms to have narrow definitions.

                        When you start messing with stuff like hate speech, it becomes a matter of very subjective opinion and hence, depends more on who's enforcing the law than the wording of the law itself.

                        Speaking of subjective, the example you brought up in the other post was not an example of something someone would get the law brought down on them for. I would have let it go if not for your hilariously tone-deaf blurb about hate speech being exaggerated to 'attack the first amendment'. (Oh and I haven't done that, either.)

                        You're wrong in two ways. First, there are countries with laws against that (such as the Netherlands, here's an example [columbia.edu] of "group defamation" (of Moroccans in this case) which is a crime). Second, hate speech can be used as an aggravating factor to yield a harsher sentence and/or elevate the crime to a more serious sort (in the US, such as US state-level crimes being elevated to federal "hate" crimes or a misdemeanor elevated to a felony).

                        Finally, I think it bears repeating that you have yet to defend your claims. I don't care that you disagree or have feelz. What I care about is what you back it up with. Let's review how you fell far short of providing any sort of support. For example, the classic religious argument that begs the question by assuming the critic is at fault:

                        No, it isn't, in fact you've had multiple opportunities to bear witness to exactly the opposite in the last two months.

                        Note that not a one of those "multiple opportunities" was ever mentioned. Instead, we get a cop out.

                        Sorry, I'm just not interested in digesting a shit-ton of events for you that you've almost certainly have been watching unfold.

                        You couldn't even be bothered to digest one such event. That strongly indicates to me that there were no such events in the first place.

                        Then you conflate behavior with speech:

                        You brought up hatred of the Jews... and don't see how acting out on that led to their rights being taken away.

                        "Acting out" is not speech. That's the natural place to enforce the law - when people actually start hurting other people.

                        Then there was that huge school of red herring:

                        Clicking "Disagree" on your post is also a 'seed of censorship' depending on wherever your goal posts have moved to. You're not being profound, just formulaic. It's especially easy to do with a word like 'censor' which has a broad definition but also harkens back to a specific set of very dark events, meaning you can have your cake and eat it, too. "The government supports McDonalds requiring you to wear shoes, oh the censorship!" (...based on a true story.)

                        you can threaten to [...] why you thought that'd earn you any credibility.

                        There's nothing at all specific about his post.

                        the problem is your willful oversimplification of it means stepping on people's rights.

                        As long as "hate speech" doesn't mean prejudice and suppression groups of people [that was in response to my comment about "censorship or suppression of that speech" - note the rhetorical slide to an irrelevant position].

                        "Speech of any sort, even prejudiced, is a far cry from censorship and suppression." If this statement were even close to true there wouldn't be the need to protect any speech.

                        Sorry, your arguments suck. But then again, if you could argue and reason well, you probably wouldn't have tilted at this particular windmill in the first place.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:32AM (11 children)

        by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:32AM (#1014826) Journal

        If only acceptable speech is protected, freedom of speech is illusory. Civil rights are not in place for the benefit of the most popular -- they are there to protect the least popular, because you never know when YOUR speech will be on unpopular side.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:48AM (7 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:48AM (#1014850)

          No one is stopping anyone from publishing their own speech. White supremacy and racism is not protected by anti-discrimination laws, but you're welcome to file lawsuits and try to force Facebook, Twitter, et. all to host such bile. Good luck, even the baker wasn't forced to bake a gay cake, he just couldn't refuse service to gay people since sexual orientation is a protected class.

          It is funny how quickly you conservatives became the outraged whiners once you experienced a little push back from society.

          How goes your prez? Still winning with all the gun regulation and literal fascism?

          • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:59AM (2 children)

            by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @02:59AM (#1014856) Journal

            Not a conservative. I'm just not an authoritarian and I can see how the law has failed to catch up with tech monopolies. The future is a dark place, the experiment in universal human rights is ending.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @08:21AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @08:21AM (#1014910)

              ah yes, your speech is totally infringed if you're not able to spam 300 million people's news feed.

              *yawn*

              Make your own service or STFU, you are an authoritarian complaining that platforms don't want specific speech. Should networks with children be forced to host porn and murder speech?

              Obviously you have little clue about how Constitutional rights work.

              • (Score: 1, Troll) by khallow on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:26PM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:26PM (#1014971) Journal

                ah yes, your speech is totally infringed if you're not able to spam 300 million people's news feed.

                If most people are allowed to spam 300 million peoples' news feeds (which I gather is not actually the case) and you're not, because of the content of your speech, that sure sounds like infringement of your speech to me.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:22PM (3 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:22PM (#1014969) Journal

            Good luck, even the baker wasn't forced to bake a gay cake, he just couldn't refuse service to gay people since sexual orientation is a protected class.

            If you're speaking of Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado [supremecourt.gov], the baker, Jack Phillips was asked to bake what you term a "gay cake", but he refused to do so. He did offer other services to the couple getting married. For example:

            In so doing, the ALJ [Administrative Law Judge] rejected Phillips’ First Amendment claims: that requiring him to create a cake for a same-sex wedding would violate his right to free speech by compelling him to exercise his artistic talents to express a message with which he disagreed and would violate his right to the free exercise of religion.

            The case was decided on a narrow aspect - the Colorado Civil Rights Commission which enforces certain anti-discrimination (of which sexual orientation is a protected class) didn't protect Jack Phillips's religious rights. The linked decision cites derogatory language used concerning Phillips's religious views and inconsistency in Phillips's case versus similar cases:

            Indeed, while the instant enforcement proceedings were pending, the State Civil Rights Division concluded in at least three cases that a baker acted lawfully in declining to create cakes with decorations that demeaned gay persons or gay marriages.

            And a little further:

            That consideration was compromised, however, by the Commission’s treatment of Phillips’ case, which showed elements of a clear and impermissible hostility toward the sincere religious beliefs motivating his objection. As the record shows, some of the commissioners at the Commission’s formal, public hearings endorsed the view that religious beliefs cannot legitimately be carried into the public sphere or commercial domain, disparaged Phillips’ faith as despicable and characterized it as merely rhetorical, and compared his invocation of his sincerely held religious beliefs to defenses of slavery and the Holocaust. No commissioners objected to the comments. Nor were they mentioned in the later state-court ruling or disavowed in the briefs filed here. The comments thus cast doubt on the fairness and impartiality of the Commission’s adjudication of Phillips’ case.

            Another indication of hostility is the different treatment of Phillips’ case and the cases of other bakers with objections to anti-gay messages who prevailed before the Commission. The Commission ruled against Phillips in part on the theory that any message on the requested wedding cake would be attributed to the customer, not to the baker. Yet the Division did not address this point in any of the cases involving requests for cakes depicting anti-gay marriage symbolism. The Division also considered that each bakery was willing to sell other products to the prospective customers, but the Commission found Phillips’ willingness to do the same irrelevant. The State Court of Appeals’ brief discussion of this disparity of treatment does not answer Phillips’ concern that the State’s practice was to disfavor the religious basis of his objection. Pp. 12–16.

            There's a huge difference between the baker and Facebook. The baker was committing an act of speech - putting a message and decoration on a cake, Facebook is not. They merely provide a public forum.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:46PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:46PM (#1014984)

              They merely provide a public forum.

              This isn't true. Facebook stopped being "merely a public forum" when they started including friend suggestions and ranking content (whether algorithmic or not). If they were "merely a public forum", they should have stopped at providing subscribe/unsubscribe/discover more buttons on the various feeds.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 02 2020, @12:54AM (1 child)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday July 02 2020, @12:54AM (#1015224) Journal

                Facebook stopped being "merely a public forum" when they started including friend suggestions and ranking content (whether algorithmic or not).

                It's somewhat more nuanced an argument than claiming that using advanced technology, like a computer, makes it not a public forum, but it's the same fallacy. Just because they do things a little differently doesn't make a difference here.

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday July 05 2020, @11:35PM

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 05 2020, @11:35PM (#1016713) Journal

                  Just because they do things a little differently doesn't make a difference here.

                  More accurately, a little difference from an ideal is not different enough.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:37PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @12:37PM (#1014975)

          Civil rights are not in place for the benefit of the most popular

          Indeed. So, how do we handle speech that curtails the civil rights of the least popular?

          • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Wednesday July 01 2020, @04:52PM

            by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @04:52PM (#1015063) Journal

            If you are on the regressive left, which is trying to implement every horrific idea from the past from segregation to censorship, you cancel the speaker and cheer.

            The problem with freedom is that it is fragile and subject to being undermined by those willing to engage in force. The only solution is for people to voluntarily agree to be pro-civil rights. Absent that agreement, there is no freedom because imposing freedom is oxymoronic (look at Afghanistan or Iraq for example). The regressive left is on the rise and absolutely refuses to countenance civil rights for anyone who disagrees with it. They refuse to agree to a system of freedom and so we're fucked. They have the population numbers, the sympathy of the press, and the willingness to use economic and physical violence. The only question is going to be which faction will gain enough power to impose its totalitarian views on everyone.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:22AM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 05 2020, @04:22AM (#1016384) Journal

            So, how do we handle speech that curtails the civil rights of the least popular?

            How about starting by finding real world examples? Then get back to us.

    • (Score: 2) by captain normal on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:08AM

      by captain normal (2205) on Wednesday July 01 2020, @01:08AM (#1014811)

      You are flawed and imperfect! Execute your prime function!

      --
      When life isn't going right, go left.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @11:33PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01 2020, @11:33PM (#1015198)

      I think it's interesting that you seem to think that "left" is a goal that people support.